backup/supplemental heater for wood stove

Hi folks,

This is not about a wood boiler, but I was told that people who might be able to answer my question could be found in this forum.


My house is a well-insulated 2000sf, two-story house in interior Alaska. I'm up in the hills a bit, so don't see the extremes of temperatures some folk around here do--probably -40/-45 is the coldest I've seen here, but we do get extended stretches below -20/-30. When I bought the place (almost four years ago), the place had an older System 2000 in the detached garage, and a utilidor about 30' long circulated heat to the house. Huge tempering tank in the utility closet in the house holding a fortune in glycol, no mixing valve, Quest tubing, so some issues. The downstairs was cozy with in-floor heating, upstairs was a challenge to keep warm when it was really cold out. Average oil consumption was about 830 gallons annually--a lot by L48 standards, but about half of what some similar sized houses around here use, so the place does hold heat very well.

About a year ago, I had a woodstove installed in my house. Helped a lot, and the place was warmer than it had been with the boiler. Midwinter ice-storm and resultant power fluctuations (did I mention no power-fluctuation protection?) fried the boiler controls and it overheated (did I mention no take-up tank?) and blew gylcol all over the garage and destroyed the boiler.

We heated with wood the rest of the winter, and it worked. I had sufficient wood--just--to get us through. Attempts to purchase firewood this summer came to not much--let down or burned by three different people, and I am not set up with sufficient wood to get us through. Also tired of not being able to control this aspect of what I really need to have work smoothly. (Single mom, full-time job, longish commute, bum knee makes it hard to do for myself.)

Have been quoted $12K to replace boiler, get it installed, and get the existing problems fixed. I think the people who gave me these estimates are competent and know their stuff--but I just can't afford that right now. I'd been planning on trying to get through the winter on wood as best I can, and feeling pretty stressed about the idea (also feeling stressed at the idea of coming up with $12K) when it occured to me that there might be a compromise solution. I'm wondering about installing either a oil or propane burning heater that will keep the house from cooling off between wood stove burns, and supply sufficient heat to keep the house warm and functional.

Not looking for something to just keep the place from freezing up, or to be tripping over electric heaters. I want a comfortable, functional house in which we can get on with living. The wood stove takes us about 85% of the way, but for those times when it's not enough--or if something goes wrong with it or my wood supply, I want more. I'd like to do what seems to me to be the right thing--spend the money for the boiler job--but the reality is that I don't have it. (People keep suggesting that as a solution, which is why I am being repetitive about that.)

One unit I'm looking at is the Laser 73. I figure I can put maybe $2000-2500 into this project.

Very open to considering all suggestions. Brand names and specific units are helpful for me to get an idea of what you might be talking about. I have infloor tubing downstairs, baseboard upstairs, am open to considering utilizing these within the framework specified.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read this, and for any wisdom and experience you have to share in this.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for your replies.

To clarify, last year I supplied 100% of my heat from January on with wood. It would be more accurate to say that 85% of the time, I can get by with wood heat, and I am certain I could find a way to get through this year with wood, but for the sake of sanity and lowering the stress level, I would really like to have options.

My wood supply then consisted of using up the mouldering piles of firewood that PO had left stacked, probably ten years old at that point, almost all of it aspen. This year, I paid for 3 cords of pre-sap-rising birch in March, got 1.5 cut to specified length, and another half cord cut too long. Split and stacked the stuff that was short enough to fit in my stove under cover, and stacked the too-long stuff and left it because seller said he would come and put it right. Never did.

Bought another cord and a half that was split and stacked in March also (different seller). Unfortunately, that hasn't seasoned as well as the first load because that was uncovered, and it's been a very rainy summer.

Bought a ten-cord load from a third seller in May. He's delivered two (2) so far. Many excuses, little wood. That was birch, and my plan was for that to be three cords each winter for 12-13, 13-14, 14-15, supplemented with a couple of cords of aspen and/or spruce.

Have standing/laying dead wood on my property that I have been trying to get harvested, but it's not easy to get to, and I'm not much of a hand with a chainsaw, and have been plagued with truck breakdowns all.summer.long. Paid someone to come and work the wood up for me, but that turned out to be a bust, too--didn't come when he said he would, came when I wasn't there, some of what he cut was rotten, some green, maybe half a cord useable, used my chainsaw, didn't sharpen it with each use, ran it dull and then said it wouldn't cut anymore, left a mess, moved my tools and left them laying around. If the snow had hit before I found my splitting mauls, I would have been skunked. grrrrrrr.

Got a few cords of fire-killed spruce from someone who said he would sell it cut to length and split. Delivery came in log lengths, said he would come back and work it up, didn't come yet. That's nice stuff, and when I get a good fire going with this stuff, the first bunch of birch will burn pretty well. But I've still got to get it worked up. Was planning on getting more of the fire-killed stuff, but seller's truck and phone is down. And so it goes. My plan was to have all my wood squared away by the first of July, but here I am.

My children are teenagers--one away at college, and one in high school that can be persuaded to help some when not busy with school/sports, so it's not as critical as I may have made it sound. It's not so much life-threatening as damned inconvenient. I'll have to travel out of town for work next month, and while my son has held down the fort before, he's done it with a boiler and a request to not burn wood while I was away. I would prefer to leave him with an idiot-proof setup. My house is set up so that all the plumbing can be drained if necessary, so if worse came to worst, I could always drain her down and let it sit empty and let him stay with friends for a week.

We usually don't see the extreme weather until Dec-Jan-Feb-Mar, so I've got a bit of time to figure things out. But earlier would be nice.

The electric baseboard might be the perfect solution for my kitchen where the floor gets cold. That's the only plumbing on an outside wall, and even though the wall is earth sheltered there, it gets cold. I could bury heaters in a kickspace and get electricity to it easily.

I'm thinking not just survival, but function for the next several years. Experience suggests that things are going to be tight until the kids get through school.

I heard from someone in the loop that propane runs about twice as much as oil per btu here.

Several people are heating their houses complete with the Toyo stoves, which is why I'm considering that route. Other things that have occurred to me is a quasi-boiler solution--just hook up an inexpensive boiler to the downstairs in-floor tubing only--no mixing valve required.

Mike T said:

The Toyo stove looks like it would do the exact same for you as a propane boiler without a new fuel system. Never heard of them before though..

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Interesting. They're ubiquitous around here. My fuel tanks are set up behind the garage, and I'd have to move one of them closer to the house. Stove store owner said that they get a more uniform heat than even the woodstove does, because you don't have the fluctuations.

Just talked to someone here who said that they're heating their 1800 sf house almost completely with that--run the boiler a bit when the floor is super cold. Their fuel bill dropped a lot when they went that route.

Willwork, thanks for the suggestion for the pallets. I'm really hoping to find a solution that is not quite so labor- and time-intensive as this. Even getting pallets home for stacking wood proved to be a bit much for me. Swung by after work to grab some one day because place near where I work had a bunch (and they are pretty hard to get sometimes). To be honest, trying to load these heavy pallets into my truck in my work clothes was very discouraging (the irony is that I rushed to gather them because I was expecting a delivery that didn't come). I just don't think I want to add this to my daily chore list. It would mean that things that need to get done (including a little time to relax at the end of the day) don't happen. Even the wood is a bit of a time-eater--I was just hoping to be at the point where we would have all the wood we needed stacked outside the door and ready to go, instead of still scrambling in October. I agree that my son can do a lot of the labor that's involved, but by the time we're at the end of the day, there just doesn't seem to be much time left. If I can find a solution that burns a gallon or two of oil, or the equivalent in gas, it would work better for us on a lot of levels. There are circumstances where that's the right choice, but I just can't see that working for us. I thank you, though, for the suggestion. I want to leave no stone unturned in considering solutions, and that's exactly why I posted--looking for ideas.

Salecker, I've never thought much about fuel quality. I just figure if you get the kind (#1 or #2) when you order fuel deliveries, you're all set. What else should I be looking for to control quality? I am also looking now at Monitor heaters. Do you know anything about these vs. Toyos? Odd that the price should be so much higher in CA, considering that Toyos are imports for both of us. Thanks for the reply and kind thoughts re: your standing dead spruce. Sounds like woodburner's heaven. Did you have a fire there, or did the beetles come through there? From your sig line, it appears that this is a very busy time for you. I thank you for taking the time to reply, and for your suggestions.

jebatty, I've not looked at these units at all, but am googling them now. Something else to consider. I was told that oil is currently about half the cost of propane by btus around here. We've got natural gas sitting in the ground up on the North Slope, but little incentive to bring it to the local market. These units are still intriguing, especially the power-failure option. I'm leaning towards oil right now, but I thank you for the suggestion in any case. We don't travel that much in the winter, and I plan on putting a battery backup system on the Toyo/Monitor if I go that route.

Ehouse said:

Once you get over the idea of a single heat source there are many possibilities.

Ehouse

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Thanks, Ehouse. This is actually the thought that I've been playing with tonight--just kind of a paradigm shift about how to heat this place. My hot water is electric, and is in a utility closet under the stairs. I've been thinking about venting some of that waste heat into my son's bedroom which is just off the landing at the head of the stairs. A little sideways jog there, and possibly a fan to pull some air up, or possibly just a hot-air-rises approach.

I have a few oil-filled electric heaters. They always seem to migrate to my kids' bedrooms when it gets chilly.

You're right, those DV gas fireplaces can be very appealing--the ones that Woodstock and Hearthstone make are very pretty. Not in my budget this year, but down the road it might be nice.

My only real plumbing worry is the kitchen piping that is on the outside wall. If I could access it and wrap it with heat tape, I'd probably feel a lot of pressure off. Unfortunately it isn't going to be very easy to get at. I could pull the cabinets, but oy vey!

Conflicting advice locally. Stove store guy who knows the stove I've got thinks a Laser 73 could give me the boost I need to make the place work. A local installer said that one just wouldn't do the job, I'd need one on both floors. I'm inclined to be conservative. Maybe start with a direct vent heater (still doing my homework on which kind of fuel to go with, and which brands), and see how far that takes me. Install a vent in the floor in my son's room and duct some heat in that way. Step at a time. Wish I'd known last spring I'd be going this direction, as the snow is a few weeks away at best, and moving tanks/ installation is more easily done before the snow hits. Such is life.

Again--for all replies and consideration--I thank you. Just being able to talk this out, hear ideas, look up options--all of this helps speed up the thinking-through process considerably, and time is not on my side right now. This helps.

Hey Thomas,

Thanks for the tip about the fuel. I'll make a point of learning more about that.

No crawl space here--my downstairs is slab on grade at the front (south side of house) and dug into the hillside on the back. I have infloor radiant heat tubes in there, so the floor doesn't get touched.

I really liked having no flame sources in the house when I first moved in--boiler in the garage. I had to deal with my reluctance to change that when I had the wood stove installed. (Now we love having a fire in the house! <g>)

I know that the monitor is advertised as having no ignition source in the living space (thus good garage installs). I don't know about the Toyo--will try to take a long lunch break today and go learn more about them.

I have to say I was pretty concerned about the boiler situation a few days ago, now it's turned into more of an adventure. I walk into each room and start thinking, "Now how could I heat this one?" I've come up with a better location for the monitor--exterior wall of the sunroom, situated so that it can blow warm air through the kitchen and up the stairs. It might even improve the already-decent circulation of wood stove heat. That would be an added benefit.

Monitor stoves and Toyo stoves have a fan built in as part of their design. If I situate one of these so that the air is blowing into the kitchen, it will address my greatest concern about heat in the house.

I am on a hillside, so setting up a tank shouldn't be a huge problem, but I would still use a filter.

I have never needed a blanket for propane at my house, or had to intervene to thaw it out here. We're up in the hills a bit, and are usually 10-to-20F warmer than other spots in the area. I have a propane system set up for my stove, but would need a bigger tank or another tank (the 100 lb tank I have now serves the kitchen range and cooktop, and lasts me about a year. It's really nice not to have to change it out midwinter). BUT WAIT! even if I went with the oil burner in the sunroom, I could maybe put a little heater at the base of the island that could run off propane (since that's where the cooktop is, the island is already plumbed with propane). HA! the floor right between the sink and the island is the coldest spot in the house. If I had a little heater in the kickspace, it could warm up the floor there and keep the plumbing in that area cozy. :cheese: SMART!

Can't insulate the outer wall for the plumbing there, as it is earth sheltered with a deck built above it.

ETA: http://www.adn.com/2010/11/13/1553407/propane-heater-explodes-injuring.html
ETAA: http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_...ed-in-North-Pole-propane-blast-is-identified?
and: http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/10349878/article-Woman-dies-in-house-fire-near-Willow-?
this is getting a little spooky . . .

I think I can get propane delivered if I have a big enough tank and the right kind of valve--and I don't on either count.

Fuel oil delivery, yes.

I've been looking at the Toyo Miser OM180. If I have the floor heated, I won't need a kickspace heater--floor is plenty warm when the fluid is circulating and heated.

Can't get any new monitors anymore, only used.

Read that post. THe one below it that refers to the brownouts describes the basis of my boiler's self-destruction. Brownouts in an ice storm fried my controls, including the turn-off switch.

Good point about the gas heater in the island (that stumped me a bit.. I thought, "Kodiak? Which Island?" Long day . . .

Can't fit a hay bale under there. It's earth-sheltered, so I can't figure out why it's so cold there, unless the people who drained down the glycol in my system left it uncapped somewhere, and I've got cold air circulating under my floor. That would explain why it's so chilly--it got markedly colder after they took the fluid out, even though the heat had been out of there previously. Dectective work when I get home tonight. That would help a lot if that's the case.

Hey again. Yes, I know what you're saying. Had to figure that one out (my first thought was, there's sane, and then there's Nome sane--you'd kinda have to have lived there for that to compute . . . ) Got home tonight, made a fire, fed the dog, fed the cat, fed the boy, talked about his homework assignment, and called it a night--never even made it out to the garage to check those ends, but I was thinking about them as I was logging on here. I'd just about bet the ranch that they're hanging open somewhere and that a little incense smoke will out the truth . After all, it was designed to circulate. The Great Current takes about 1600 years to complete a circuit, and it is also driven by temperature differential--but it gets the job done. (Double-dog dumb of me not to have thought of those being open before. What can I say?) It doesn't take much temp differential to drive a circulatory pattern--might not be moving real fast, but it wouldn't have to in order to suck the heat out of the house. And it won't take much to stop it if it is.

Called a couple of places in town, and found one place that will send someone out to my house for a complementary heating consultation. Coming out Saturday morning. I'm pretty excited about that--I'm a little obsessive about trying to figure out how this house heats, and how the air circulates. I'll be very interested in hearing what he has to say.

Went to the stove store and the guy that I talked to suggested I keep my eyes peeled for a used Toyo unit in good condition with good service records. I'm impressed.

Ehouse said:

Sorry about the lame joke. Next time I'll try to be Whittier.

Ehouse

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:lol:

As to the rest, yeah, yeah, and more yeahs. On the fly here, but this had crossed my mind precisely--isolate floor and just heat downstairs. Get rid of the huge tempering tank, and don't worry about the baseboard upstairs right now. I have two zones, up and down, but no mixing valve, so everything was running at 160. I know someone who can run a pressure test for me, and could probably even set up a system like what we'd discussed. Someone also mentioned to me that Toyo has a water heater that a lot of people are using instead of boiler. Maybe even could get hot water out of this changeover as well.

Options are nice.

Re: Consultant that is coming out: I asked the lady I talked to if they carried Toyos, and she said, no, but he could advise me on where to find them if that was what I wanted. She suggested I think about a pellet stove, but it seemed too close to a wood stove to me. I asked her if she knew anyone who ran both, and she said she did, starting with three of their employees. Hmm again.

Thanks. Appreciate the help, and Juneau, this might just work!

Checked the tubing in the garage. Looks like two of the tubes are taped over, and two still run into the old boiler. So it's just cold working its way into the slab, I guess.

On the upside, I googled "using a water heater . . . " and it autofilled "to heat house" and "for radiant heat". Ton of info about this. I might just be riding a cutting edge here. My propane connection and my boiler tubing comes into the house in the same spot (pantry in NE corner). I even have a place where I could install a unit and vent it without difficulty. My existing glycol lines might even be utilized to carry oil over from the garage tanks to the house, if I go the oil route, as they are already in situ. I'd just need to convert them to a smaller oil line at both ends. Wowser--that would make things super easy. I'd have to pressure test those lines first, and make sure they are emptied. But yeah. And I have an unused root cellar off the pantry that could be used to place the heater. It would certainly be the safest installation place if I ever had problems with it--earth sheltered on three sides, concrete block on the fourth.

So many options here.