Wood Stove vs Insert in masonry fireplace

barwick11 · Oct 7, 2011

Our local tractor supply has a good priced (and *already shipped*) Wood Stove in stock (seems to be the same as the Century Brand, it's "US Stove").

I was looking at getting the Century 2500 insert, but it'd be more expensive, and supposedly is a smaller unit than the one I see locally (and could get for roughly the same price).

Aside from the flashing/surround to cover up the empty space in my masonry fireplace, is there a big difference between a Wood Stove (if I yanked the legs off it) and a Fireplace Insert? The stove has a blower already, as does the insert, and most things seem similar, but I'm sure there's some kind of difference I'm missing.

I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this, but when I go to install, starting from the bottom, I'll need (besides the insert) a surround to cover up the empty space, a seal in place of the current flue, flexible single-wall chimney pipe that runs the length of the chimney, and then a cap (seal?) on top of the chimney that the pipe runs through and above a few feet. Then I presume a cap for the pipe itself.

Now, another question I've been wondering, is it possible to force the combustion air to come from outside somehow, rather than from inside the house? The house is sealed pretty well, so if I can take combustion air from outside (maybe direct down the chimney? I dunno), that'd be great.

jatoxico · Oct 7, 2011

Many people here have installed free standing stoves in their fireplace. Mostly you should not have to remove the legs and will likely get more heat out of it than you would from an insert. Look through some threads you will see many pics.

There are outside air kits (OAK) depends on the stove.

thetooth · Oct 7, 2011

I just had a jotul installed on my hearth . You can't see it in the photo but there is a hearth extender in front of the stove ( 18x48 ) . This is a smaller stove for weekday evening fires and all weekend burns . The installer ran a new stainless liner up the existing chimney .

barwick11 · Oct 7, 2011

I saw some hearth installs, we don't really have the room for that on our hearth. I suppose we *do*, but it'd be pushing it, plus we've got 4 kids, and another on the way so the more offset we can have from the front of the hearth, the better.

So basically though, if it fits in the LxWxH it should fit, as long as I can get the chimney pipe installed without some major twists/bends?

jatoxico · Oct 7, 2011

barwick11 said:
I saw some hearth installs, we don't really have the room for that on our hearth. I suppose we *do*, but it'd be pushing it, plus we've got 4 kids, and another on the way so the more offset we can have from the front of the hearth, the better.

So basically though, if it fits in the LxWxH it should fit, as long as I can get the chimney pipe installed without some major twists/bends?

Gotcha, same reason I bought an insert instead of a stove. I've never seen one installed w/o legs at all. Suppose you could or possibly cut legs down. If stove is meant to have air circulate under it placing it right on the bottom of the firebox may not be so good as it may overheat itself or the even the firebox.

To be honest taking a new stove and modifying the install would not be my choice. If it's a money issue see what you can manage used. Post some dimensions and if you can a picture of the layout. There is a lot of experience here and you will probably get some good suggestions and keep costs down.

barwick11 · Oct 7, 2011

I took 2 pics of it, with the old glass still on it from the previous owner (it's rusted b/c they sprayed an oxidizer in the house to kill any mold that may have still been around, they had to remediate the basement a while ago, well before we moved in).

So, the overall dimensions I'm looking at are:
Width - 40"
Height - It's an arch, about 22" at the shortest (on the ends), about 23" where a normal insert would be, and it goes up to about 25ish inches in the dead center.
Depth - I believe it's 30" deep, it was in my head till about 10 seconds ago, then I forgot what the measurement was.

Note the tape measure at the bottom if you need a relative perspective.

Oh, and yeah, the previous owners left this mess in here, we moved in around April and didn't get into it yet.

jatoxico · Oct 7, 2011

If you can swing it I'd go for the insert. My insert, and others I have seen are setup so that even the relatively delicate fans and wires can reside right below the firebox meaning the floor and sides of the insert don't get that hot. It would concern me to place a stove directly on any surface even fire brick. Maybe it can and has been done but I would check that out carefully.

I think this recent thread desribes the insert you mentioned. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/67504/ Sounds like a good cost effective way to go.

There is also the CL option for used units.

It's probably not a good time of the year to wheel and deal with the local shops but have you checked for any left overs and floor models?

barwick11 · Oct 7, 2011

jatoxico said:
If you can swing it I'd go for the insert. My insert, and others I have seen are setup so that even the relatively delicate fans and wires can reside right below the firebox meaning the floor and sides of the insert don't get that hot. It would concern me to place a stove directly on any surface even fire brick. Maybe it can and has been done but I would check that out carefully.

I think this recent thread desribes the insert you mentioned. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/67504/ Sounds like a good cost effective way to go.

There is also the CL option for used units.

It's probably not a good time of the year to wheel and deal with the local shops but have you checked for any left overs and floor models?

I've only talked to a few local shops, they're all talking around $2000-$3000 for buy/install together. I'm hoping to keep the buy/install around a grand if possible, but buying new will probably cost a little more.

Itemized items I'm looking at, what...
25' Stainless flexible flue liner - $400?
Century Insert delivered - $900
Block-off plate (the one that goes right by the insert itself?) - $???
Chimney cap - $???

Am I missing anything else? I'd hate to get into it and have a $500 surprise. Especially because I don't live on credit, so I'd have to wait another month till I get another dividend from our fledgling business.

Dix · Oct 7, 2011

What's the square footage of the house, and the layout? That plays an important role.

Also add your location to your signature line. It will help a lot with input.

Welcome to the forums !

jatoxico · Oct 7, 2011

barwick11 said:
jatoxico said:

If you can swing it I'd go for the insert. My insert, and others I have seen are setup so that even the relatively delicate fans and wires can reside right below the firebox meaning the floor and sides of the insert don't get that hot. It would concern me to place a stove directly on any surface even fire brick. Maybe it can and has been done but I would check that out carefully.

I think this recent thread desribes the insert you mentioned. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/67504/ Sounds like a good cost effective way to go.

There is also the CL option for used units.

It's probably not a good time of the year to wheel and deal with the local shops but have you checked for any left overs and floor models?

Click to expand...

I've only talked to a few local shops, they're all talking around $2000-$3000 for buy/install together. I'm hoping to keep the buy/install around a grand if possible, but buying new will probably cost a little more.

Itemized items I'm looking at, what...
25' Stainless flexible flue liner - $400?
Century Insert delivered - $900
Block-off plate (the one that goes right by the insert itself?) - $???
Chimney cap - $???

Am I missing anything else? I'd hate to get into it and have a $500 surprise. Especially because I don't live on credit, so I'd have to wait another month till I get another dividend from our fledgling business.

I think you may be meaning the surround. A block off plate goes inside the old flue where the damper is located usually just sheet metal. All labor little expense. You can stuff some roxul up there instead though some will disagree. Roxul is insulation can be had at lowes. You can live w/o the surround for a long time or forever for that matter as the poster of the thread I listed did.

You're in the ball park on the liner, there are kits that include cap etc. One or two story install?

Assuming your chimney isn't damaged and so forth there is little in the way of hidden expenses. Stove, surround (optional) and liner couple odds and ends like sealant (caulk) for rain proofing. As a starting point check this site for dealers of stainless liners.

barwick11 · Oct 7, 2011

Great, thanks guys. Yeah Jatoxico, I meant the block off that goes where the old damper was.

As far as home size, it's just shy of 3000 square feet (like 2970 I think). Living room is centrally located on a roughly 2000 sq ft first floor, and 3 bedrooms upstairs about 1000 sq ft, which I think will stay plenty warm because there's a fairly large opening for a semi-curved central stairway. Actually, that stairway is pretty much behind me from where I took that picture, so lots of heat will go right upstairs.

begreen · Oct 7, 2011

I hate to be a budget breaker, but I strongly suspect you will be looking for a replacement within a year or two. That is a lot of space to heat. I would put the biggest insert I could in that space. Take a look at some 3 cu ft inserts. And take very accurate measurements to the lintel (metal support behind the arch). . An Osburn 2400 would be a good choice if it would fit. It will cost twice as much as the Century, but you will really appreciate the difference on cold nights and for the difference in overnight burns.

http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1053

barwick11 · Oct 7, 2011

Is that looking for a replacement because it doesn't put out enough heat, or looking for a replacement because it will be worn out/broken?

I'm not too worried about it not putting out enough heat to heat the entire house, I just want to avoid a $400 gas bill every winter month, and keep a few of the rooms in the house warmer than the rest. We've got a literally brand-new 95% efficient natural gas furnace downstairs, and a 10 year old 92% (or 94%? I forget) one upstairs (that's just how they did it when they built the place).

begreen · Oct 7, 2011

I suspect it will have a short life due to overfiring the first few times the temp goes below zero. Getting a too small stove is a pretty typical mistake. Don't ask me how I know, :red:but we see this frequently.

Even with a 3 cu ft stove you may not be heating the whole place all the time. But the difference in longer burn times, easier loading and greater reserves for the cold weather will be very much appreciated.

barwick11 · Oct 8, 2011

Dang... heh. I like the look/size of bigger inserts, just not the cost

allhandsworking · Oct 8, 2011

barwick11 said:
Is that looking for a replacement because it doesn't put out enough heat, or looking for a replacement because it will be worn out/broken?

I'm not too worried about it not putting out enough heat to heat the entire house, I just want to avoid a $400 gas bill every winter month, and keep a few of the rooms in the house warmer than the rest. We've got a literally brand-new 95% efficient natural gas furnace downstairs, and a 10 year old 92% (or 94%? I forget) one upstairs (that's just how they did it when they built the place).

It gets addictive burning. Get a good unit that you can grow with. You can always make a smaller fire but you can't gain another cubic ft of inert size.

begreen · Oct 8, 2011

barwick11 said:
Dang... heh. I like the look/size of bigger inserts, just not the cost

See me in January.

rakuz66 · Oct 8, 2011

Not to hijack a thread Barwick, but take alook at my thread 'cracked Lopi". Overfired the stove. If you can swing it, get the bigger stove, if not, be careful and get yourself a stove thermometer !

jatoxico · Oct 8, 2011

The Osburn suggested is used by a couple here who are very satisfied w/ it, supposed to really throw the heat.

BTW What is your wood situation? Some folks really take to burning, others (who prob stop posting) use their stoves more lightly. If you don't envision keeping up a good supply of dry wood then the smaller unit may make sense.

barwick11 · Oct 10, 2011

jatoxico said:
The Osburn suggested is used by a couple here who are very satisfied w/ it, supposed to really throw the heat.

BTW What is your wood situation? Some folks really take to burning, others (who prob stop posting) use their stoves more lightly. If you don't envision keeping up a good supply of dry wood then the smaller unit may make sense.

A few weeks ago I had a guy drop off a truck bed & trailer full load at the house of ash from his property (we've got the Emerald Ash Borer here in Michigan, so it's mostly almost-ready-to-burn as it was delivered). He said other folks told him it split to about 5 face, I'm not so sure about that, I've got most of it split and it's looking like I'll be lucky to get 4 face out of it.

I may go to the local heating/cooling place tomorrow (er, later "today" since it's after midnight here), and see what they've got. Problem there like I said though is, they quoted about $3000 to buy and install. That's triple what I wanted to spend.

Maybe there's a buying guide on the forums, I'll have to look for it.

And keep in mind, this is just going to be supplemental heat. The furnace breaker will always be switched on, but I'll set the temp down low enough that it shouldn't need to come on often. If I can get an outside air kit for it, that should help that situation even more, the house is pretty tightly sealed it seems.

dafattkidd · Oct 10, 2011

I was on a tight budget and bought the osburn 2400 insert. It was the biggest firebox I could get for the money. Bought at dynamitebuys.com. I am very happy with the unit. As advised by the others, you are going to want a larger firebox. Good luck.

rottiman · Oct 10, 2011

Had a regency insert in this fire place for 10 years. worked good but then retired it and put in a regency R-3 free stander in its place. Worked even better but the firebox was a little small for my sq. ft. So, decided to get a heat monster NC-30 and stuff it in there. Should be really good this winter.................

barwick11 · Oct 10, 2011

Thanks guys. I may have found an Avalon Rainier insert (the 990 model) with the surround for $750. I'm hoping to talk the guy down some if possible, we'll see.

tomWright · Oct 13, 2011

If you are still looking, you could do what I did.

After I settled on a few brands I checked out dealers and found one near me that carried most of them. The dealer had a good rep so I went there and they said they prefer to measure before installing, and do a chimney cleaning as well. This made sense to me, especially since the chimney is 50+ years old and had not been cleaned in three years. It was never used much. Since they measured, they could also tell me that which inserts would fit. The sweep even said he had the same unit I was considering. He was also the one that installed it.

Once you have a reputable dealer and measurements done by someone that knows what they are doing, you can narrow down your choices.

The problem could be finding a dealer with a good rep.

barwick11 · Oct 27, 2011

I just found an Elmira 1400 Series, but am not exactly sure if that's going to be big enough for my needs. Anyone familiar with that model/size think it'll work well enough? They're asking $500 which isn't too bad it seems.

Wood Stove vs Insert in masonry fireplace

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