What would you guys do?

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farmer

Member
Sep 27, 2011
83
se mn.
Have a owb I have say I under sized it from talking to my neighbors that have them. I always wanted stove in the house but never did it. So I guess I would Like opions on what Iam thinking. Put a stove in the house for suplament heat so the owb doesnt have to work so hard when it is cold out or get the next size bigger owb or up date to a outdoor gasser. I like the idea of stove in the house just because of the derect heat off the stove and watching the fire but didnt really know if it would be worth the extra splitting of the wood and bringing inside the house and mess? Anybody do both or used to?
 
Why do you think your OWB is undersized? If it's not idling "much" it is very likely your OWB is running substantially more efficiently than your neighbors. Idle is bad by any measure of efficient wood burning. If you want to upsize your OWB just so you can load less frequently (but put more wood in) I bet you'll see a marked increase in wood consumption.

Tell us more about your current situation.
 
The problem I am running into is when the outside temperature drops below normal the boilers water temp has a hard time staying above 160 degrees so my draft door stays open all the time. The water temp should be 170 to180. The wood I use is oak. It is not seaoned but not not green either. My neighbor had the same problem went with a size bigger boiler and could keep his temps where they should be. He said though the whole winter he used less wood then previous years with the smaller unit. I was just going trade up then I found this site and realized there might be better options out there. It seems that newer stoves can burn really efficient. Maybe I should just leave things the way they are?
 
You should burn seasoned wood.
 
Dune said:
You should burn seasoned wood.
+1
When you say "It is not seasoned but not not green either", with oak if it's split large within the year, it could be 40% MC. Oak split large can take 3 years to season. If you want to figure out what your boiler can really do, get some wood pallets, cut them up, and get a good fire going with them. After seeing how it runs with pallets alone, start mixing in your oak to see what happens as more oak goes in. If you have a good source of pallets, you could continue to run a mix in order to get good production. Yep, lot's of work - basically a PITA. Or, you could try to find seasoned firewood, but the chances of that happening at this time of the year are slim and none.
 
what I cut is dead oaks that have been on the ground for a 2 to 3 years then I cut them up. So if I can get ahead a year or two you think I can get the water temp up where it should be if I burn oak that has been cut and split 2 to 3 years ahead.
 
farmer said:
what I cut is dead oaks that have been on the ground for a 2 to 3 years then I cut them up. So if I can get ahead a year or two you think I can get the water temp up where it should be if I burn oak that has been cut and split 2 to 3 years ahead.

You don't get much heat from either wet or unseasoned wood.
The heat is wasted boiling the water from the wood.
Try the experiment with the pallets.
 
Next year sounds like the perfect time for a new, properly sized, Gassification boiler and storage in a small outbuilding. If you can make that financial commitment. Find yourself some dry wood for this year. The pallet thing would work, but that will be some extra work to say the least. Is there anyone around that sells wood that might have some Ash that has been cut and split for at least 3-4 months? If so, Ash burns well with a shorter drying time than most other woods. Just a suggestion. If you can afford an outdoor Gasser for next year, or an indoor one if you could build a small, insulated building with some storage? Sounds like you already have the underground lines in place. Good luck to you Farmer, and keep us up to date with what you decide.
 
I grew up burning wood and have continued, as I enjoy it, the heat, and the work. When I built my house, I installed radiant heat everywhere, i.e. tubing in the concrete. For the first 7 years in the house, I burned wood in a Lopi Liberty woodstove, and typically the house was always cozy, sometimes too cozy in the shoulder seasons, but never cold. Always at least 72. I'd burn enough oil in the boiler to keep the concrete at a minimum temperature of usually 66. Typically it was always warmer than this from the stove alone...though on the coldest of nights the oil would surely come on. I think I burned maybe 100-150 gallons for the floor minimum temp. The house is very open, so heating with the woodstove is very easy.

A couple of years ago I built an addition and an attached garage/shop. The addition would be poorly heated by the stove, as it is a few feet lower than the mainlevel of the house, and also it is separated from the house, with a 5' open doorway between the two. But clearly it would be darn chilly in there if trying to use just the house woodstove. Plus, the garage/shop is pretty big, 2200 sq ft, and I would like to be able to heat it someday as well for winter working (mainly to finish the house and whatever happens when that hobby is done). The prospect of heating the addition with oil is bleak, and I'd never burn oil to heat the shop/garage...I'd rather freeze while working. The addition and shop/garage all have pex in the concrete. It is possible to heat the addition with another woodstove, but that would involve two fires, twice the inside mess, etc. Not something my wife was fond of.

So I took the plunge and bought the outdoor gasser, namely a Garn. So now (or at least when everything is insulated and ready), I can heat the addition, the house, the shop/garage all from the Garn. I no longer have to have the mess of the woodstove in the house. Even when you are careful, there's always a bit of a mess.

I thought I'd miss the woodstove tremendously, as I grew fond of standing next to a blazing stove for the instant warm up. But honestly, having not had a fire inside all of last year, I don't miss it. And I certainly don't miss the mess...and no worry about a chimney fire, though I never worried about that really with seasoned wood.

So, you asked if folks with a woodstove went to a boiler, or vice versa. I did....and I'm very happy I did. Obviously we burn more wood to heat everything, and there is the inevitable loss with underground piping and whatnot, but that can be minimized. It is a big financial plunge...a good outdoor gasser is typically at least $7K or so, and that is just the beginning. Storage, piping, controls, insulation, etc. It all adds up pretty fast. I'd count on at least spending 50% of the boiler again, and like a full 100% again, but it depends on your system. So you have to ask how much it is worth to you. My Dad asked me just the other day what I based my calculations on as far as financial return. $4/gallon for oil. If I heated the addition, that's easily 500 gallons, plus the other 100 for the house floor minimum, plus DHW....so it all adds up to say 1000 gallons a year, or $4K. And I haven't heated the garage/shop at all....and who believes oil will be $4 for the next few years? Plus I can't receive oil once the snow flies, long driveway, so I'd have to have another tank installed....and where? Etc.

So to me it is worth it, but I can cut my own wood for "free", and I enjoy the work...most importantly. It is a pleasant hobby. If I didn't, it would make no sense....unless wood was very cheap.

I do agree with the others, seasoned wood is likely going to improve things for you. A gasser would have you burning less wood, perhaps by 30-50%? The estimates vary.
 
I think your name is gasifer I see under your singature you have a E100 and super 27 (back up ) , do you ever use the super 27 much? What do you like about it? Is the gasser stove (e100) that much better to have than a stove in the house?
 
you need to give more info. like whats the outside temp that you cant keep up with. how big/old is your home. whats your heat loss. whats the output of your wood boiler and your oil boiler. maybe its just how its hooked up.
 
I hear ya farmer, it's annoying seeing a fuel bill and have to cut wood too. I think you might want to get the wood tested for moisture. Yo will find by far the most common problem there is on this board is wood stoves not working right. Nine of ten it turns out the wood isn't as dry as they thought. Guy named Deerefanatic in northern Wis. has an eko 60 for a few years and started a thread " I HATE THIS EKO 60". Turns out the wood was not dry enough for a gassifier. I do the same thing. I burn wood not covered and say Ah, it's dry. It's not as dry as dry wood in a wood shed. You will get 10% more heat from wood that is actually dry, and then those few days ya need back up won't mean much. A new gasser is 10k at least. My Eko 25 is the cheap one and got 9,400 bucks in it with no storage. Add another 2k for storage. You most likely need more insulation in the attic too. That is cheap way to lessen your heat demand. I insulate attics and folks say the house seems cozier the minute they walk in the door. Tons of dudes on this board could save wood with 500 to 1,000 bucks for attic insul.
 
RE: Seasoned wood

I have a customer who bought a Garn 3 years ago. He bitched about using more wood than I had led him to believe. He had trouble with creosote in the HX tubes and had to clean it during the winter. He said he had to load it 3-4 times a day and that it took a long time to get up to temp.............

I kept telling him it was the wood. He was burning mixed hardwood,mainly beech and oak, that was cut about a year or so ahead of when he burned it. Stored it under a roof and behind a wall on the north side of a building where it got no sun and no breeze. He's finally to the point where his wood supply has been seasoned for at least 20 months and most of it for 24 and guess what!!? He called me the other night and said Steven!, you were right. I started my Garn today and popped in some of that 2 year old wood and I couldn't believe it. It only took 2 loadings to get the temp from 65* up to 190*. It never did that before!!!".

Well ......go figure :)
 
I think your name is gasifer I see under your singature you have a E100 and super 27 (back up ) , do you ever use the super 27 much? What do you like about it? Is the gasser stove (e100) that much better to have than a stove in the house?

I have an E100 Wood Gun from Alternate Heating Systems in my basement. I bought it last spring and now just got it on-line October 1st. I would say don't rush anything. I have burned wood for many years. Just got the Super 27(Pacific Energy) five years ago. Loved it. But it would only heat about 60-70% of my house and not my Domestic Hot Water(DHW). When I bought it, that is what I could afford. Five years later I made the big plunge. I had saved a little money, and went to my local credit union and to make a long story short, they allowed me to borrow the money for the boiler on what they called a "recreational equipment loan". Low interest loan. 4.5% They needed the serial number off of it for collateral. I can't spell. So to answer your question, I used my Super 27 for five years, in my basement. I used a couple of small fans to move the hot air up the open staircase a little quicker and it saved me a ton of money in oil. Then I just installed my gassifier into the same chimney when I was ready. The Wood Gun used a six inch flue the same as the Super 27. The things I liked about the Super 27 were the price $1400, the simplicity, the efficiency, and being able to see the fire. The Gasser that I have is also in the house. Basement, that is. It is that much better because it is even more efficient, and can heat my whole house, garage(in-floor heat) and my DHW for showers, sinks, dishwater,etc. Right now, with your situation, I would suggest getting some dry wood. Like the others have said. Think about it for a while. But you need some dry wood. I wouldn't try to do a gasser unit this year. Not enough time. And you don't have dry wood. Take your time. Use your boiler you have for another year. And after you find some dry wood to get you through this year, start getting some cut, split and stacked for next year. Preferably, something that dries quickley. Like ash. Do you have much white Ash up in your neck of the woods? Don't be shy, lots of people who know much more than I do on here. Keep asking questions. I will be glad to help any way I can.
 
A stove in the house is a good safety net in case of a power failure but so is a generator. In the house stoves will up your insurance and generators have to be maintained even when not in use. Outdoor gasification is probably the closest you will get to "light it and leave it" like a wood boiler but you will be wasting your time and money if you don't feed the beast seasoned wood. Burning real seasoned wood in your OWB will improve its performance. One thing to note is standard OWB's will never burn efficiently though they will provide heat. check; www.portageandmainboilers.com for an outdoor wood gassifier. Sizing is important too.
 
Where are you measuring your output temperatures? Just wanted to ask if you feel good about your underground line insulation. Many have a "good enough" attitude about their installation.
 
Thanks for all the replies. After reading your posts and other post in different threads it seems like season wood can solve alot of problems.Iwill have to try to get ahead on wood supply. Lets say down the road I look at a gasifer boiler,my question is if it burns so much more efficiently and I have that extra heat but the house isnt calling for heat and I have no storage is it just going to go out the flue? As far as my install on my boiler I have now. I insluated the under ground piping and as far as Iknow every thing else was done right.My house is 1800 sq.ft., heat a garage and hot water for the house. I was looking for ideas and you guys help out. Seems like a wood stove in the house is allright but those of you that had them and went away from them dont really miss them.
 
farmer said:
I insluated the under ground piping and as far as Iknow every thing else was done right.
How did you insulate it?
Fred61 said:
Where are you measuring your output temperatures? Just wanted to ask if you feel good about your underground line insulation. Many have a "good enough" attitude about their installation.
+1
Have you measured the temp at the OWB and also the temp of the water when it reaches the house? If your underground lines aren't insulated very well or water has gotten in where you didn't expect it, you could be losing lots of heat to the ground.
 
They should be insulated well but Iwill have try reading the water temps.
 
farmer said:
Thanks for all the replies. After reading your posts and other post in different threads it seems like season wood can solve alot of problems.Iwill have to try to get ahead on wood supply. Lets say down the road I look at a gasifer boiler,my question is if it burns so much more efficiently and I have that extra heat but the house isnt calling for heat and I have no storage is it just going to go out the flue?
The boiler will lower output wnen heat isn't needed. The big difference with the gasser is that the smoke is still pulled or pushed through the red hot coal bed at idle, a non gasser can be a creosote producer at idle, Randy
 
YOUR QUESTION " Lets say down the road I look at a gasifer boiler,my question is if it burns so much more efficiently and I have that extra heat but the house isnt calling for heat and I have no storage is it just going to go out the flue?"

WITH my gasser, when its in idle mode the fire is almost out or there is no visible flame anyway. there are just a bunch of charred wood sitting there, but when the fan turns on a flame starts up. I think it does this very well when the wood is dry. there has been a few times that i cannot beleive the fire will restart but it does.

with all that said, idle mode still is not the best situation...its why so many folks use storage.
 
My run is 90ft. and I have somebody this weekend that can read the temp of the pipes so I will let you know how that turns out.
 
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