VC Encore burn times

BrowningBAR · Oct 23, 2011

Pretty impressive so far. Definitely longer burn times on about the same amount of wood than the Heritage.

I need to figure out how to lock in lower temps with the cat. Once it is up to 600-700 I can shut the air all the way down and it will hold and slowly burn down over a 6 hour period with the firebox filled 60-75%. I have not tried to stuff the box full, yet. I could easily fit another 4+ splits. Which should give me 8+ hours burning the way I have the last few burns. Longer if I can figure out how to lock in at a lower burn temp.

Obviously I've only had a handful of fires at this point. Problems and issues could turn up, but the main issues that are known with VCs have been eliminated; dry wood, good draft, all new gaskets, new cat, assembly is in good shape, stove seems are tight with no leaks.

begreen · Oct 23, 2011

With 3 stoves, less refills has to be heavenly. Good to hear it is working well for you.

BrowningBAR · Oct 23, 2011

BeGreen said:
With 3 stoves, less refills has to be heavenly. Good to hear it is working well for you.

You have no idea.

Todd · Oct 23, 2011

Figure out how to rig a cat probe and I bet your burn times will get even better.

leeave96 · Oct 23, 2011

Sounds like you are on the right track. If that stove don't work out - it's definately going to be the stove, not the set-up or operator. I'm intersted in how this stove works. My Dad had one of these, but he didn't have much luck with it. In his case, I think it was more the operator/wood vs the stove. It was one of the best looking stoves I've ever seen.

As far as the low burns, I find that with my Keystone, once you have lit off the cat, pretty much smoke alone will keep it burning without relying on additonal heat from the firebox to keep the cat temp up so it will burn. I have burned mine with just a trace of orange coals in the stove bottom, but the cat was glowing and the stove top easily 500+ degrees. The only downside to this type of burn is that the glass will blacken overnight due to very little air wash velocity across it. The Keystone also has a small hole in the ash pan housing to let a touch of air make it's way up through the bottom of the coals. I imagine the Encore would have a similar unregulated air supply too. When I open the damper up during the day, the blackened glass burns off to clear.

The cat burn on my Keystone is so much different than my Englander in that you HAVE to have firebox temps up to keep the secondaries lighting off whereas the cat is feeding/heating itself via smoke. It makes for a really wide burn range. For large stoves, the addition of the cat really makes them more versitle - which is probably why the Blaze King is such a popular stove.

Speaking of glass, how well does the glass stay clean? How is the flame view?

Good luck,
Bill

BrowningBAR · Oct 23, 2011

Todd said:
Figure out how to rig a cat probe and I bet your burn times will get even better.

I'm going to look into a prob within the next two months. Not sure what my options are, yet. I need something visible from the top of the stove. If it is in the back, like I've seen on rdust's Blaze King, it won't work for me since the back of the stove is pushed into a tight fiting fireplace.

BrowningBAR · Oct 23, 2011

leeave96 said:
Sounds like you are on the right track. If that stove don't work out - it's definately going to be the stove, not the set-up or operator. I'm intersted in how this stove works. My Dad had one of these, but he didn't have much luck with it. In his case, I think it was more the operator/wood vs the stove. It was one of the best looking stoves I've ever seen.

Yeah, I was, and still am, concerned about the stove's performance due to the well known VC issues. Due to the low cost that I was able to get the stove for, I am using the Encore as my test case to figure out if a Defiant is worth the gamble.

As far as the low burns, I find that with my Keystone, once you have lit off the cat, pretty much smoke alone will keep it burning without relying on additonal heat from the firebox to keep the cat temp up so it will burn. I have burned mine with just a trace of orange coals in the stove bottom, but the cat was glowing and the stove top easily 500+ degrees. The only downside to this type of burn is that the glass will blacken overnight due to very little air wash velocity across it. The Keystone also has a small hole in the ash pan housing to let a touch of air make it's way up through the bottom of the coals. I imagine the Encore would have a similar unregulated air supply too. When I open the damper up during the day, the blackened glass burns off to clear.

I'm pretty sure Woodstock's cat design is better, or more efficient, than VCs based on burn times. We'll see if I can get the stove locked in at about 400 with the cat engaged instead of 600-700 and see what happens with the burn times.

The cat burn on my Keystone is so much different than my Englander in that you HAVE to have firebox temps up to keep the secondaries lighting off whereas the cat is feeding/heating itself via smoke. It makes for a really wide burn range. For large stoves, the addition of the cat really makes them more versitle - which is probably why the Blaze King is such a popular stove.

Didn't think of that. When I was messing with the stove I disengaged the cat when I saw smoke in the firebox thinking I smothered the flame. This stove is completely different than the Intrepid due to the larger firebox. It looks different and there is more to see, which might make me miss-interpret things.

Speaking of glass, how well does the glass stay clean? How is the flame view?

The glass is staying remarkably clean so far. A lot less fly-ash than the Intrepid and the Heritage. I have two dark marks on the glass right now when I had two splits shift and were resting on the glass and the andirons. When I restart tonight I want to see if they burn off.

In regards to the flame view, that is undetermined yet as I am still trying to figure out the best configuration for burning. Right now I am basing it on the way the Intrepid burned which was slow bubbling flame and a lot of glowing. This translate to not a lot of firebox activity.

Also, the front doors work a lot better than any other front doors I've used. They really swing out of the way and give you access to the entire firebox.

BrowningBAR · Oct 23, 2011

Cost breakdown:

Stove: $350
Assembly cover: $50
Gasket Material: $30
8" to 6" reducer pipe: $20
90Â° elbow: $10

Total: $460

Clarks ACE Hardware · Oct 23, 2011

We've been able to exceed 12 hour burns times with our 2n1 Defiant so I'd imagine the rated 10 hour burn time could easily be met with the Encore.

Thanks for your sharing.

jharkin · Oct 23, 2011

Its expensive, but the best probe option is the condar digital catalytic meter. In the back of the stove above the cover for the secondary air flapper these is a small round button. Pry that out and use a 1/4in twist drill spun by hand to drill a hole through the refractory. Push the probe in there and it will be placed perfectly under the cat.

I have the meter attached to the brick behind the stove. Definitely get the optional AC adapter for it - you will use it ALOT.

For burn times. I found that once I was using good wood and had all the gaskets tight I could pack it up at 9pm, and still have enough coals to relight at 7 or even 8 am. Once you get the cat lit off you can close the air all the way and it will cruise as low as 350-400F griddle with nothing but some orange coals in the window. This kind of burn will fog the glass but it will never go out - so long as the secondary air inlet thermostat is working and the 2 hidden air inlets in the ash pan are not clogged.

Gaskets tip - be especially careful to make the ashpan tight, and replace the wire griddle gasket with a rope type.

Don't be afraid to pack it to the gills, Ive filled it to an inch below the griddle using chunks and small pieces to pack every gap, but do keep an eye on the catalyst temp when burning big loads. I have found that on really dry loads when everything starts offgassing the catalyst temps will slowly creep up even as the griddle stays stable. Its possible to be under 550F on the griddle yet have the cat go thermonuclear (1800+) from all the smoke. The catalytic probe will alert you to this impending danger before the orange glow of death appears in the fireback. Before I got the probe I had a scare where the entire hood and upper back was glowing and flames were shooting out of the hood and into the firebox !!!

scary. Now anytime I see the cat probe temp go over 1650 I close the air completely fora few minutes to back it off.

With the probe I was able to learn a reliable technique for full loads. Get the fire going like a blast furnace at full air. Close damper at 600F griddle (too soon seems to just smother the cat). Then I turn the air down 1/4 at a time over a half hour. I settle with the air handle set to straight down or just a little forward of straight down for a hot daytime burn.... For a slow overnight burn I go fully close and back it off just 1/8" or so.

BrowningBAR · Oct 24, 2011

jharkin said:
Its expensive, but the best probe option is the condar digital catalytic meter. In the back of the stove above the cover for the secondary air flapper these is a small round button. Pry that out and use a 1/4in twist drill spun by hand to drill a hole through the refractory. Push the probe in there and it will be placed perfectly under the cat.

I have the meter attached to the brick behind the stove. Definitely get the optional AC adapter for it - you will use it ALOT.

Thanks for the probe tips. I will look into the digital meter.

[/quote]For burn times. I found that once I was using good wood and had all the gaskets tight I could pack it up at 9pm, and still have enough coals to relight at 7 or even 8 am. Once you get the cat lit off you can close the air all the way and it will cruise as low as 350-400F griddle with nothing but some orange coals in the window. This kind of burn will fog the glass but it will never go out - so long as the secondary air inlet thermostat is working and the 2 hidden air inlets in the ash pan are not clogged.[/quote]

Good to hear. Though, I do have an older Encore model than yours. So, I am interested to see if there is any difference to burn times.

Gaskets tip - be especially careful to make the ashpan tight, and replace the wire griddle gasket with a rope type.

Yep, I am well aware of the griddle gasket issues. This is my third VC. I have had moderate luck with the wire gasket. If you sit it in perfectly it will give you a good seal. Otherwise it will create gaps allowing air to come in through the griddle. Right now I am using the wire gasket to see how it settle, but I have rope gasket ready if I need to swap it out.

Don't be afraid to pack it to the gills, Ive filled it to an inch below the griddle using chunks and small pieces to pack every gap, but do keep an eye on the catalyst temp when burning big loads. I have found that on really dry loads when everything starts offgassing the catalyst temps will slowly creep up even as the griddle stays stable. Its possible to be under 550F on the griddle yet have the cat go thermonuclear (1800+) from all the smoke. The catalytic probe will alert you to this impending danger before the orange glow of death appears in the fireback. Before I got the probe I had a scare where the entire hood and upper back was glowing and flames were shooting out of the hood and into the firebox scary. Now anytime I see the cat probe temp go over 1650 I close the air completely fora few minutes to back it off.

With the probe I was able to learn a reliable technique for full loads. Get the fire going like a blast furnace at full air. Close damper at 600F griddle (too soon seems to just smother the cat). Then I turn the air down 1/4 at a time over a half hour. I settle with the air handle set to straight down or just a little forward of straight down for a hot daytime burn.... For a slow overnight burn I go fully close and back it off just 1/8" or so.

I have every intention of packing the Encore full. :lol: Just making sure I have everything covered as this was my first tear down and I'm still making sure everything is functioning properly. So far, so good.

I will keep an eye on the back panel. I have an IR thermometer and I will hit the back panel to be sure temps aren't climbing back there. That will have to do until I get the cat probe. Thanks for the tips on the glowing issue.

BrowningBAR · Oct 24, 2011

Actually, I just checked the griddle and the wire gasket has settled poorly. So, out it goes and the rope gasket is going in. That makes me one for four with that damn wire gasket.

Todd · Oct 24, 2011

jharkin,
Instructions on that Condar digital probe state it only stays lit for 30 minutes then you have to press the button again. Do you find that annoying, anyway to rig it to stay lit without going off every 30 minutes?

jharkin · Oct 24, 2011

No way to rig it that I am aware of. Maybe a little bit annoying, but I just got in the habit of hitting hte button whenever I walk by the stove to check it.

Gark · Oct 24, 2011

FWIW, these items about our Encore CAT.
The glowing throat hood and surrounding metal are not caused by the CAT. The way secondary air is added to unburned gasses BEFORE it gets into the combustor (it comes from between the lower fireback and refractory), it can get secondary combustion above the CAT. Just means I waited too long to close the damper and I took too long to taper down the primary air after closing the damper.
Our 2550 cat model came with a white gasket between the primary shutter frame and stove body. This gasket kept the gravity-operated primary valve from closing all the way with the primary air lever fully to rear. I nibbled away bits of the gasket where it kept the valve open and now have control over the firebox flame. If you can't reduce the firebox burn to glowing coals (for a long overnight cat burn), maybe see if your primary shutter is able to close completely..
Just FWIW.
As Bill said, the Encore has unregulated primary intake holes (two) feeding air into the ashpan chamber. They are just behind the front legs.

BrowningBAR · Oct 27, 2011

BrowningBAR said:
leeave96 said:

Sounds like you are on the right track. If that stove don't work out - it's definately going to be the stove, not the set-up or operator. I'm intersted in how this stove works. My Dad had one of these, but he didn't have much luck with it. In his case, I think it was more the operator/wood vs the stove. It was one of the best looking stoves I've ever seen.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was, and still am, concerned about the stove's performance due to the well known VC issues. Due to the low cost that I was able to get the stove for, I am using the Encore as my test case to figure out if a Defiant is worth the gamble.

As far as the low burns, I find that with my Keystone, once you have lit off the cat, pretty much smoke alone will keep it burning without relying on additonal heat from the firebox to keep the cat temp up so it will burn. I have burned mine with just a trace of orange coals in the stove bottom, but the cat was glowing and the stove top easily 500+ degrees. The only downside to this type of burn is that the glass will blacken overnight due to very little air wash velocity across it. The Keystone also has a small hole in the ash pan housing to let a touch of air make it's way up through the bottom of the coals. I imagine the Encore would have a similar unregulated air supply too. When I open the damper up during the day, the blackened glass burns off to clear.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure Woodstock's cat design is better, or more efficient, than VCs based on burn times. We'll see if I can get the stove locked in at about 400 with the cat engaged instead of 600-700 and see what happens with the burn times.

The cat burn on my Keystone is so much different than my Englander in that you HAVE to have firebox temps up to keep the secondaries lighting off whereas the cat is feeding/heating itself via smoke. It makes for a really wide burn range. For large stoves, the addition of the cat really makes them more versitle - which is probably why the Blaze King is such a popular stove.

Click to expand...

Didn't think of that. When I was messing with the stove I disengaged the cat when I saw smoke in the firebox thinking I smothered the flame. This stove is completely different than the Intrepid due to the larger firebox. It looks different and there is more to see, which might make me miss-interpret things.

Speaking of glass, how well does the glass stay clean? How is the flame view?

Click to expand...

The glass is staying remarkably clean so far. A lot less fly-ash than the Intrepid and the Heritage. I have two dark marks on the glass right now when I had two splits shift and were resting on the glass and the andirons. When I restart tonight I want to see if they burn off.

In regards to the flame view, that is undetermined yet as I am still trying to figure out the best configuration for burning. Right now I am basing it on the way the Intrepid burned which was slow bubbling flame and a lot of glowing. This translate to not a lot of firebox activity.

Also, the front doors work a lot better than any other front doors I've used. They really swing out of the way and give you access to the entire firebox.

In regards to this, the dark marks burned right off on the next fire and the glass is staying very clean.

BrowningBAR · Oct 28, 2011

So, I found a stove with a decent ash pan system. Color me shocked.

grommal · Oct 29, 2011

BrowningBAR said:
So, I found a stove with a decent ash pan system. Color me shocked.

The Oslo has a GREAT ash pan system. The VC Defiant Encore that I used to have had a great ash pah (just about the only great thing about THAT stove).

I'm convinced that folks who say that ash pans are worthless have never used a stove with a good one.

BrowningBAR · Oct 29, 2011

grommal said:
BrowningBAR said:

So, I found a stove with a decent ash pan system. Color me shocked.

Click to expand...

The Oslo has a GREAT ash pan system. The VC Defiant Encore that I used to have had a great ash pah (just about the only great thing about THAT stove).

I'm convinced that folks who say that ash pans are worthless have never used a stove with a good one.

Eh, it's still not a selling point for me. :lol:

What issues did you have with your Encore? Trying to be aware of all the issues to stay on top of anything that might hit me.

grommal · Oct 29, 2011

BrowningBAR said:
grommal said:

BrowningBAR said:

So, I found a stove with a decent ash pan system. Color me shocked.

Click to expand...

The Oslo has a GREAT ash pan system. The VC Defiant Encore that I used to have had a great ash pah (just about the only great thing about THAT stove).

I'm convinced that folks who say that ash pans are worthless have never used a stove with a good one.

Click to expand...

Eh, it's still not a selling point for me. :lol:

What issues did you have with your Encore? Trying to be aware of all the issues to stay on top of anything that might hit me.

Have posted about it here before. Very picky about the draft on any given day. Horrendous backpuffing that could not be stopped regardless of mitigation technique. Lots of stuff that needed replacing after several years of burning. Just a very picky stove. Didn't chance a thing on my chimney, but simply substituted an Oslo for the Defiant Encore, and all the problems vanished entirely, like flipping a light switch. One day, lots of problems. The next day, woodstove nirvana.

I'm sure some folks get good service from the Defiant Encore, but our chimney was not going to let that happen for us, apparently. It's nice to have a stove that's not so particular.

And a good ash pan system is fabulous. Empty the ashes once a week with no dust in the room. Each morning, just toss new splits on the coals with zero to minimal raking. What could be easier?

BrowningBAR · Oct 29, 2011

grommal said:
Have posted about it here before. Very picky about the draft on any given day. Horrendous backpuffing that could not be stopped regardless of mitigation technique. Lots of stuff that needed replacing after several years of burning. Just a very picky stove. Didn't chance a thing on my chimney, but simply substituted an Oslo for the Defiant Encore, and all the problems vanished entirely, like flipping a light switch. One day, lots of problems. The next day, woodstove nirvana.

I'm sure some folks get good service from the Defiant Encore, but our chimney was not going to let that happen for us, apparently. It's nice to have a stove that's not so particular.

I appreciate the response. I was aware of many of the issues that plagued the VC stoves before I bought the Encore, including the back-puffing. I wanted to be sure that your problems were ones that I was already familiar with. I am sorry to hear you were one of the unfortunate ones that had nothing but grief from the stove. But, it does sound like you are happy with the Oslo.

I went into this purchase as kind of a trial run to see if the cat VC's were worth a shot with my chimneys and setup. So far, this experiment is working out for me.

Gridlock · Oct 29, 2011

Similar to grommal, my experience with my VC Defiant CAT (not Encore, but larger model) the first season was awful, with lots of back-puffing, lack of any real control, and often extreme CAT tempuratures (> 2200 degrees!); I actually saw 2300 once (as measured with the Condar digital CAT meter). I came VERY close to throwing this thing out the window, and replacing it with a Jotul Firelight. After months of haggling with the chimney sweep, he ultimately replaced the 6 inch flex liner with a staniless and insulated 8 inch flue for no cost (long story). Anyhow, the 8 inch flue completely eliminated all of these issues; the difference was so dramatic in fact, it was hard to believe it was the same stove! Since then, the stove has been reliable and puts out a really nice amount of heat. The refractory is starting to look a little ragged after only about 9 cords, but I believe that is the result of the extremely high temperatures before the issues were resolved. It doesn't look like I'll have to replace the refractory yet, but need to keep an eye on it.

So the moral of the story is, that although it is possible that the VC stoves are quite finicky to setup correctly, work very well once that happens (at least in my instance). In my opinion, they are also the nicest looking stoves (along with the Hearthstone Mansfield and Equinox) on the market. Also, since you get get a new refractory for a decent price at one of the e-retailers, I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more expensive to run than most other stoves.

BrowningBAR · Oct 29, 2011

Gridlock said:
Similar to grommal, my experience with my VC Defiant CAT (not Encore, but larger model) the first season was awful, with lots of back-puffing, lack of any real control, and often extreme CAT tempuratures (> 2200 degrees!); I actually saw 2300 once (as measured with the Condar digital CAT meter). I came VERY close to throwing this thing out the window, and replacing it with a Jotul Firelight. After months of haggling with the chimney sweep, he ultimately replaced the 6 inch flex liner with a staniless and insulated 8 inch flue for no cost (long story). Anyhow, the 8 inch flue completely eliminated all of these issues; the difference was so dramatic in fact, it was hard to believe it was the same stove! Since then, the stove has been reliable and puts out a really nice amount of heat. The refractory is starting to look a little ragged after only about 9 cords, but I believe that is the result of the extremely high temperatures before the issues were resolved. It doesn't look like I'll have to replace the refractory yet, but need to keep an eye on it.

So the moral of the story is, that although it is possible that the VC stoves are quite finicky to setup correctly, work very well once that happens (at least in my instance). In my opinion, they are also the nicest looking stoves (along with the Hearthstone Mansfield and Equinox) on the market. Also, since you get get a new refractory for a decent price at one of the e-retailers, I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more expensive to run than most other stoves.

Interesting. I think you are the few that I have read that had issues with a VC and resolved them to the point that they are pleased with the stove. If the Encore continues to perform, I was thinking of going with newer model Defiants for the other two stoves. Both of those would be using 6" liners.

Can you tell me a little about your old setup with the 6" liner that was connected to the Defiant?

grommal · Oct 29, 2011

Gridlock said:
Similar to grommal, my experience with my VC Defiant CAT (not Encore, but larger model) the first season was awful, with lots of back-puffing, lack of any real control, and often extreme CAT tempuratures (> 2200 degrees!); I actually saw 2300 once (as measured with the Condar digital CAT meter). I came VERY close to throwing this thing out the window, and replacing it with a Jotul Firelight. After months of haggling with the chimney sweep, he ultimately replaced the 6 inch flex liner with a staniless and insulated 8 inch flue for no cost (long story). Anyhow, the 8 inch flue completely eliminated all of these issues; the difference was so dramatic in fact, it was hard to believe it was the same stove! Since then, the stove has been reliable and puts out a really nice amount of heat. The refractory is starting to look a little ragged after only about 9 cords, but I believe that is the result of the extremely high temperatures before the issues were resolved. It doesn't look like I'll have to replace the refractory yet, but need to keep an eye on it.

So the moral of the story is, that although it is possible that the VC stoves are quite finicky to setup correctly, work very well once that happens (at least in my instance). In my opinion, they are also the nicest looking stoves (along with the Hearthstone Mansfield and Equinox) on the market. Also, since you get get a new refractory for a decent price at one of the e-retailers, I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more expensive to run than most other stoves.

Glad changing to the 8" flue worked for you. I already had the recommended 8" flue for the Defiant Encore when I was having the problems. We fought that stove for 23 years, not realizing that things could be that much different with different equipment. Interestingly we still have that 8" clay tile lined external masonry chimney just as it was with the VC, yet the Oslo that's supposed to have a 6" flue seems to love it. Go figure.

Agree that the VCs are indeed attractive, which is one of the reasons we bought ours in the first place. The real moral of the story is probably that every stove is a great stove and a horrible stove, depending on whether the rest of the setup mates well with it. It would be nice if it were a little more predictable what will work and what will not when combined.

BrowningBAR · Oct 30, 2011

grommal said:
Gridlock said:

Similar to grommal, my experience with my VC Defiant CAT (not Encore, but larger model) the first season was awful, with lots of back-puffing, lack of any real control, and often extreme CAT tempuratures (> 2200 degrees!); I actually saw 2300 once (as measured with the Condar digital CAT meter). I came VERY close to throwing this thing out the window, and replacing it with a Jotul Firelight. After months of haggling with the chimney sweep, he ultimately replaced the 6 inch flex liner with a staniless and insulated 8 inch flue for no cost (long story). Anyhow, the 8 inch flue completely eliminated all of these issues; the difference was so dramatic in fact, it was hard to believe it was the same stove! Since then, the stove has been reliable and puts out a really nice amount of heat. The refractory is starting to look a little ragged after only about 9 cords, but I believe that is the result of the extremely high temperatures before the issues were resolved. It doesn't look like I'll have to replace the refractory yet, but need to keep an eye on it.

So the moral of the story is, that although it is possible that the VC stoves are quite finicky to setup correctly, work very well once that happens (at least in my instance). In my opinion, they are also the nicest looking stoves (along with the Hearthstone Mansfield and Equinox) on the market. Also, since you get get a new refractory for a decent price at one of the e-retailers, I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more expensive to run than most other stoves.

Click to expand...

Glad changing to the 8" flue worked for you. I already had the recommended 8" flue for the Defiant Encore when I was having the problems. We fought that stove for 23 years, not realizing that things could be that much different with different equipment. Interestingly we still have that 8" clay tile lined external masonry chimney just as it was with the VC, yet the Oslo that's supposed to have a 6" flue seems to love it. Go figure.

Agree that the VCs are indeed attractive, which is one of the reasons we bought ours in the first place. The real moral of the story is probably that every stove is a great stove and a horrible stove, depending on whether the rest of the setup mates well with it. It would be nice if it were a little more predictable what will work and what will not when combined.

Man, 23 years fighting with a stove is a long time.

I'm actually running a 6" liner with the Encore. It's odd how the success or failure of these stove vary greatly.

VC Encore burn times

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