First insert purchase, need advice

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Gazing in Wonder

Member
Oct 14, 2011
43
South Puget Sound
Hello and thanks for being here and doing what you do. I've been learning a lot browsing the forum. I have a 1961 house built into a hill so half of the downstairs is basement. It's 2,100 sq.ft., with a natural gas force air furnace. It's also got a big chimney in the middle of the house, with fireplace openings on each level.

We sometimes used the fireplace upstairs, where we spend most of our time, because I love having a fire, but it chills the bedrooms and pollutes the air. I'd like to have a fire without guilt and also be able to heat at least part of the house when the electricity goes out. The fireplace is in a large open living room/dining room/kitchen and there's a hallway leading to the bedrooms. We've been considering an insert for a while, but suddenly my wife is ready to buy. I'm not sure what changed between spring and now, but I'm not questioning it. She wants something flush and contemporary looking. I want something with a large window and good efficiency. We like the looks and efficiency of the Scan DSA4, but I think the window is probably too small. We also like the Morso 5660 without the fan.

Trouble is, the quote we got for the Morso installed and taxed is $4,370. That's $2,750 for the stove, and the rest is surround, install, shipping, and tax. Dang that's a lot of money. There's a tax credit which helps some.

So my questions are:
1. Will the Morso without the fan heat the upstairs okay? How long will it take for a fire to make the large room warm?
2. Is this a reasonable price for the south Puget Sound area?
3. How much could I save by waiting until spring?

There's one other major issue which is that we don't like the surround that they offer. The installer thinks it will take $300 - 400 to make and install a custom surround. I'd like to have something that goes to the edge of the opening, not over the edge, covering it. Any suggestions?
 
There will be more educated hearth members chime in but I'd like to say that I myself wouldn't want an insert without a blower.
 
I'll comment on the blower option. Simply put, you will want a blower in an insert. Most of the stove top sits in your fireplace. This time of the year, you can get plenty of heat from the stove without a blower. The reason for this is because of a block off in the damper. My cast heats up nicely, the surrounding brick on the face of the fireplace heats up nicely as well. Again, this time of the year, that's all you'll want.

Once temps are colder in Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb, trust me, you will want to move the heat from the stove top into the room via the blower.

The secret to running stoves and keeping warm in the winter is running them 24x7. You can't expect a stove to heat a cold room in an hour like base board heat.

Your main room will be warm if you size the stove correctly. You may have read this already. Get the largest stove you can fit in that fireplace. Also, stoves are space heaters and the further from the stove, the cooler you'll be. Those rooms down the hall will be cooler because of there distance from the stove. There are tricks to moving the heat with fans down halls.
 
Welcome to the forums !!!


You definitely want a blower for an insert. One with an extended front will throw more heat with out a blower, but the fan is key to getting the heat out of it when the temps drop.


Can you mount a wood stove on the hearth?
 
My insert would overheat w/o blower and since its still pretty new to me I have not yet put on a full load.
 
Wow, this is interesting and unexpected. I'd read quite a few posts with folks saying they didn't need a blower, that convection was enough.

The wood stove idea wouldn't work so well, given the layout of the room, we'd always be walking around it.

Most of the winter it's about 38 degrees and rainy. The blower would add $510 to the project. Perhaps during a cold spell I'd wish I had one? Anyone without a blower feel that way? Setting up an external fan on extra cold days an option?
 
In that style I would also look at the Regency Alterra 1250 with blower.
 
Avalon perfect fit plus. Larger firebox. Nice big glass. Much cheaper than the Morso too.
 
I think most of those mentioning no blower are freestanding stoves. If I didn't use the blower on my insert I really don't think it would heat much more than the room it is in and the fireplace itself. With the blower on the entire house is usually kept nice even in the coldest weather. I do have a small fan that blows back toward the stove room from the hallway near the bedrooms to help circulate heat.
 
Can you put a wood stove somewhere else?

Knowing what I know now, and coming on 4 years with the PE insert, I'd have gone with a wood stove in another area of the house.
 
Since an Insert is usually inside a hearth opening, you’re losing most of the side, top and rear radiation heat it offers. So, most model have shields that will increase the quantity of heat radiated towards the from the unit. Any Insert will certainly work better with a blower since it will create some air circulation, increasing in a considerable way the quantity of heat you can get out of the unit. Keep in mind that heat rises and since the cold air will be continually pushed down by warm air rising (gravity) a blower will assure to avoid having the “cold feet†sensation by circulating the air. Giving the size of your house and the year it was built, I will consider taking a look at the Osburn 2400 Insert. It is a huge Insert with a big firebox and offers 100.000 btu. It also comes with the blower included. Regards!
 
Thanks for all the comments. I am fortunate to have several local shops. The one I haven't been to yet is the Regency place and I will call on them Monday. The Alterra looks nice (passed the wife test). It puts out less particulate, but it also has a smaller window. If the price is better I may go that way, so thanks for that recommendation.

I've done some more browsing here, and I think that I fall into the category of what you all call the weekend/ambiance burner. I like to split my own wood, but not enough to burn 24/7. I don't need to burn overnight, so the small inserts are fine, so long as the window is big enough.

I am still split on the blower issue. I can see that there will be times I'd want it. What do folks do about the cord? I saw one thread where someone bemoaned the fact that the brochures don't show the cords, and I am so glad, because I hadn't thought of that at all. I am not the sort who wants to run conduit up through the downstairs ash dump and install a special switch to meet code. If there is an ash dump, which I am not sure of, it's probably behind the gas furnace in the basement.

I wonder if it's reasonable to drill into the firebox from the wood box, and run the cord through the hole, then run a tan colored extension to the nearest outlet, which is about mantle height on the right side.
 

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You may be OK without a blower for overall heat output, but you will definately burn less wood when you use a blower, and the heat will circulate and be more even with one.

The cord is an issue but after a while you don't even see it. The rolling flames and warm gentle breeze makes you forget pretty quick.

And once you start burning it will be pretty hard to remain a "weekend/ambiance burner". I might be wrong but I think your wife will see to that.

My cord used to run through a hole in the floor to a receptacle in the basement but I found that is a no-no according to code. Changed it when I put the new floor in few years ago
 
Hello Gazing in Wonder,

Contrary to popular belief a blower is not necessary. You will not burn less wood with a blower because the firebox is exactly the same from the blower model to the non-blower model. The blower will push the heat into the room further faster. You will get the same amount of heat either way, as you are burning at the same efficiency with a blower on or off. With no blower you will be relying on radiant heat rather than convective. The radiant heat will soak into the masonry of the actual fireplace and stay warm throughout the burn, and for a period after. The Morso uses vermiculite interior panels and is designed to throw its heat out into the room. I do recommend that you be sure that the installer insulates around the liner at the damper opening with HIGH TEMPERATURE insulation. This will prevent the relativity small amount of heat that is radiated off of the convection chamber from going up the existing masonry flue. For heating the upstairs of your home that unit should work well. Given that you mentioned that you will be a casual burner you may find that you will not use the blower much if you purchase it. If heating the upstairs is really a major concern I would suggest using the money that you would have spent on going to the blower model on getting the air out of the room that the insert is in and pushing into the other rooms in the upstairs of your home - ie: ceiling fans, room to room fans etc. Generally that model is plugged in behind the surround by running power into the masonry firebox up through the ash cleanout so that the cord is hidden, this too has an additional cost I am sure. The non-blower model of that series looks much better anyways.
 
firefirefire said:
Hello Gazing in Wonder,

Contrary to popular belief a blower is not necessary. You will not burn less wood with a blower because the firebox is exactly the same from the blower model to the non-blower model. The blower will push the heat into the room further faster. You will get the same amount of heat either way, as you are burning at the same efficiency with a blower on or off. With no blower you will be relying on radiant heat rather than convective. The radiant heat will soak into the masonry of the actual fireplace and stay warm throughout the burn, and for a period after. The Morso uses vermiculite interior panels and is designed to throw its heat out into the room. I do recommend that you be sure that the installer insulates around the liner at the damper opening with HIGH TEMPERATURE insulation. This will prevent the relativity small amount of heat that is radiated off of the convection chamber from going up the existing masonry flue. For heating the upstairs of your home that unit should work well. Given that you mentioned that you will be a casual burner you may find that you will not use the blower much if you purchase it. If heating the upstairs is really a major concern I would suggest using the money that you would have spent on going to the blower model on getting the air out of the room that the insert is in and pushing into the other rooms in the upstairs of your home - ie: ceiling fans, room to room fans etc. Generally that model is plugged in behind the surround by running power into the masonry firebox up through the ash cleanout so that the cord is hidden, this too has an additional cost I am sure. The non-blower model of that series looks much better anyways.
Click to expand...

The heat that goes into the masonry is lost on an outside chimney install. While the firebox on many inserts are the same as their free standing cousins I can tell you I get little heat transferred into the room w/o blower. As I posted earlier my insert is fully flush (no extension onto hearth). Convection and radiant heat transfer is so poor I risk overfiring when blower is not on. Hands down the blower is essential for my insert.
 
firefirefire said:
Hello Gazing in Wonder,

Contrary to popular belief a blower is not necessary. You will not burn less wood with a blower because the firebox is exactly the same from the blower model to the non-blower model. The blower will push the heat into the room further faster. You will get the same amount of heat either way, as you are burning at the same efficiency with a blower on or off. With no blower you will be relying on radiant heat rather than convective. The radiant heat will soak into the masonry of the actual fireplace and stay warm throughout the burn, and for a period after. The Morso uses vermiculite interior panels and is designed to throw its heat out into the room. I do recommend that you be sure that the installer insulates around the liner at the damper opening with HIGH TEMPERATURE insulation. This will prevent the relativity small amount of heat that is radiated off of the convection chamber from going up the existing masonry flue. For heating the upstairs of your home that unit should work well. Given that you mentioned that you will be a casual burner you may find that you will not use the blower much if you purchase it. If heating the upstairs is really a major concern I would suggest using the money that you would have spent on going to the blower model on getting the air out of the room that the insert is in and pushing into the other rooms in the upstairs of your home - ie: ceiling fans, room to room fans etc. Generally that model is plugged in behind the surround by running power into the masonry firebox up through the ash cleanout so that the cord is hidden, this too has an additional cost I am sure. The non-blower model of that series looks much better anyways.
Click to expand...
I don't think so. If that were true, then a natural gas forced air furnace would not kick out on the high limit when the blower quits, and stops taking heat from the heat exchanger. Same heat, same efficiency, but you have to effectively dissipate the heat.
 
 
woodmiser said:
Click to expand...


Should be more used around here. Jake & Dennis come to mind
action-smiley-075.gif
 
firefirefire said:
Hello Gazing in Wonder,

Contrary to popular belief a blower is not necessary. You will not burn less wood with a blower because the firebox is exactly the same from the blower model to the non-blower model. The blower will push the heat into the room further faster. You will get the same amount of heat either way, as you are burning at the same efficiency with a blower on or off. With no blower you will be relying on radiant heat rather than convective. The radiant heat will soak into the masonry of the actual fireplace and stay warm throughout the burn, and for a period after. The Morso uses vermiculite interior panels and is designed to throw its heat out into the room. I do recommend that you be sure that the installer insulates around the liner at the damper opening with HIGH TEMPERATURE insulation. This will prevent the relativity small amount of heat that is radiated off of the convection chamber from going up the existing masonry flue. For heating the upstairs of your home that unit should work well. Given that you mentioned that you will be a casual burner you may find that you will not use the blower much if you purchase it. If heating the upstairs is really a major concern I would suggest using the money that you would have spent on going to the blower model on getting the air out of the room that the insert is in and pushing into the other rooms in the upstairs of your home - ie: ceiling fans, room to room fans etc. Generally that model is plugged in behind the surround by running power into the masonry firebox up through the ash cleanout so that the cord is hidden, this too has an additional cost I am sure. The non-blower model of that series looks much better anyways.
Click to expand...

Disagree X3, when the power goes out here I have to push the surface temps higher than ever just to maintain or slow the drop of the room temperature. This is why I am working towards a 12V powered blower.
With the blower running no problems. I can make it 80°+ in no time with 4 or 5 splits, and normal surface temps.
I do agree with the masonry absorbing heat but that happens any way. Through the winter the masonry above the insert mantle stays a toasty 90 to 95° all winter long.


Agree with the point made by the video, but how else do we get the factual info out there?
People will always have opinions, right and wrong. The internet just makes them readily available to all who look for them.
 
I was just lightening it up with the video. I love that clip. I agree the stove will produce the same energy with or without the fan. With the fan you are pulling the heat off of the stove faster which I would assume causes the stove temp to drop. I'm guessing you would use a different damper position between fan on and fan off. Slightly more open with fan on to maintain stove temp? In other words, with a blower you might not have as long a burn time.

Looking at a purposely designed blower unit as opposed to secondary means of moving air (ceiling fan, table fan, etc) I would think the purposely designed blower with an integrated shroud would do a better job of stripping heat off of the surface of the stove and mixing it into the room than the secondary methods. The secondary methods are good for getting the heated room air mixed but my experience for getting the heat out of the room is to push the cold air from the other areas into the heated room works best. Colder air is heavier, lies on the floor where a fan sits and is easier to push in some ways because it's denser.

The negatives of the stove blower are initial cost, looks and noise.
 
Your insert can be used in a power failure. An insert is built like a wood stove. The only thing that will not work in a power failure is the blower. Operating your insert without the blower will not damage the unit. The disadvantage is that you will not benefit from the heat circulation around the insert’s jacket. Inserts come with a blower because a large portion of the unit is inserted into a masonry opening. The heat that radiates from the portion of the firebox inserted into the masonry hearth does not reach the room as it would with a freestanding wood stove. This is why inserts have a jacket built around the back portion of their firebox. The heat is trapped inside that jacket and is pushed back in front of the stove and into the room with a blower. Without electricity, you will not recover as much heat from the unit. The radiating heat will come mainly from the glass and the front portion of the insert.
 
I have the morso 5660 insert with blower. For an extra $500, I'd buy the blower. You can always turn it off if you don;t want to use it. I feel that my insert will still put out a great deal of heat with the blower off due to the design of the unit. The engineers designed the unit to move air from the bottom to the top. Go to the morso site. It takes my unit about 1hour before it heats up enough for the blower to come on and the room is already getting warm. Standing near it I can feel a lot of heat coming off the top without the blower.

As to your cord. I'd mount a recpticle in your tinder box, then cut or drill a hole through to the firebox. The morso has ports on either side to route a cable/cord through. This is what I did.

I have not looked at the regency's, but I can say that the Morso is a classy top of the line insert with a great window that looks like the gates of hell when burning. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat...
 
Many thanks to all who posted advice. The regency alterra was definitely a reasonable alternative. It was $314 less than the morso 5660, with a smaller window and firebox. The Morso felt better when I was inspecting them. I'm no expert, but it just seemed well made, and my wife and I both liked the way it looked. And the big window is very nice. So I went pricey on the stove, but cheaper by not getting the blower. Adding electricity to the mix would increase the installation costs, so it would have been more than the $500 extra. The specs all say that the non-blower unit heats the same space with the same efficiency. It will be interesting to see how it works.

I am really excited to get this thing going.
 
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