Englander 17-VL over firing

Alan Gage · Nov 24, 2011

Fired up my new Englander 17-VL a few weeks ago and while I've been pretty happy with it I seem to be unable to keep it slowed down most of the time. I'm running a pipe thermometer (internal) 18" up from the top of the stove and even with the air intake completely closed off I routinely see the stack temp rise to 1300-1400 degrees. My infrared gun tops out at 600 degrees so I don't know what the actual stove temp is above the door.

I ran a 13-NC for a few years before I got the 17 and I never had an issue with it over firing. Even if I spaced off and let the fire get too hot all I had to do was shut down the air to bring it back under control. On the 17, even if I shut down the air control when the pipe temp is around 600 degrees, it will keep creeping up and up.

My chimney is relatively short, 16' from the floor to the cap. I've been burning silver maple, white oak, and honey locust and it does it with all of them.

I was worried the air door wasn't working properly so I pulled off the shield covering it and everything was in place and it completely blocked off the hole when closed. I was surprised how many air intake holes were open all the time with no control however.

And while we're talking about the 17....does anyone know why the outside air tube is 5" instead of 3" like on the 13-NC? It's a smaller stove so I'd expect it to need less air, not more.

Thanks,

Alan

Peter B. · Nov 24, 2011

There was a good deal of discussion and 'research' here last year about the accuracy of (some) probe thermometers...

... but if accurate, those stack temps you cite are pretty scary. Something needs 'attention'.

Not much help, I know, but I don't have a 17-VL (though I think it's a nice looking stove).

Peter B.

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Alan Gage · Nov 24, 2011

I wondered about the probe accuracy as well but this is the same one I used last year on my 13-NC and it didn't read anywhere near that high (unless I forgot to damper it down). Not that something couldn't have happened to it in the last year. Hopefully in the next couple days I'll get the 13 hooked up in the shed and I can see what the probe reads there.

Also, the fire just LOOKS like it's running too hot. I remember with the 13 that when the air was backed down the flames looked slow and lazy with nice secondary burn. With the 17 the flames are really rocking and rolling.

Alan

Peter B. · Nov 24, 2011

Again, something sounds amiss, but...

Until you figure out the actual source of the problem, you might want to partially block the main air (OAK ???) intake and see if that helps slow things somewhat.

I hope someone more knowledgable steps up for you.

PB

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pen · Nov 25, 2011

is the stove pipe single or double wall?

pen

Alan Gage · Nov 25, 2011

Double wall pipe.

I should clarify that while I do see stack temps hit 1300 or 1400 degrees now and again it doesn't do that EVERY time. It will go over 1000 degrees pretty much every time a fresh load is put in though.

Alan

wkpoor · Nov 25, 2011

Stack temp is usually related to primary air. But you say it still climbs with primary fully shut. Does it really fully close off. And what are the stove temps when this is happening. I have a really tall chimney and I see the opposite. My stack temps are always very low. Typically a 1/3 of the stove measured from the surface.

bpm44 · Nov 25, 2011

Something definitely sounds amiss here. When I pull the lever out to slow down the air on my 17 it responds very quickly. Maybe a dumb question, but you are pulling it out to slow down and pushing in to get more air,right?

I don't have a probe to monitor stack temps so I can't speak to that, but I run a magnetic thermometer on the face of the stove.

When you take the OAK shroud off of the bottom of the stove and look at the plate the control rod is moving are the two screws that hold it keeping it snug to the bottom of the stove? Has it warped or developed a bend to it? I had taken mine apart after running the stove through break-in fires to apply anti seize compound to it to keep it operating smoothly and it was nice and flat and created a good seal with the surface above it.

Lastly, have you done a recent dollar bill test?

What temp is the stove running at if you put a magnetic thermometer on the face of the stove just above the left or right side of the door frame?

BrotherBart · Nov 25, 2011

When Corie wrote the manual for his creation he put specifications for stove temps using a thermo on the front of the stove. What are those temps reading?

On reloads the pipe is gonna get hot. Hot happens.

48rob · Nov 25, 2011

Hi,

I had a similar problem last year.

Turns out the baffles above the secondary tubes were out of place.

My stack temps according to the probe run 600-800 most of the time.
Stove "top" isn't accurate because of the double wall.
A better place is on the sides, just under the top lip, near as you can get to the front.
500-600 is normal.

Rob

Alan Gage · Nov 25, 2011

jeeper said:
Something definitely sounds amiss here. When I pull the lever out to slow down the air on my 17 it responds very quickly. Maybe a dumb question, but you are pulling it out to slow down and pushing in to get more air,right?

Yes, that's how I'm doing it. It took me a couple days to figure that out, it's backwards from my Englander 13-NC.

I don't have a probe to monitor stack temps so I can't speak to that, but I run a magnetic thermometer on the face of the stove.

What are you seeing there? A friend is borrowing my only surface thermometer but I'm pretty sure it's too big to fit in that space. I took out an infrared gun from work but it tops out at 600, which I'm over.

When you take the OAK shroud off of the bottom of the stove and look at the plate the control rod is moving are the two screws that hold it keeping it snug to the bottom of the stove? Has it warped or developed a bend to it?

Everything looked fine when I had it apart a couple weeks ago, I'll double check when I have it apart later today. How big was the hole the plate blocks off on yours? On mine I was surprised how small it was (especially in relation to the size of the air intake). It was a small diamond shape if I remember right. I was also surprised how many other small air intake holes were down there that had no control. I always envisioned that when I completely closed the air lever on a stove that I was blocking pretty much all the air, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case with this one.

Lastly, have you done a recent dollar bill test?

Good point, I haven't. I assumed since it was new that it shouldn't be an issue but I guess that's not always the case. I'll check.

Thanks,

Alan

Alan Gage · Nov 25, 2011

48rob said:
Hi,

I had a similar problem last year.

Turns out the baffles above the secondary tubes were out of place.

The white one? Mine is pushed all the way to the back with the gap at the front. I think the front edge is about even with the front burn tube.

My stack temps according to the probe run 600-800 most of the time.

Is that an internal probe or a magnetic stick on?

I'll do some more checking later today and get back.

Thanks,

Alan

48rob · Nov 25, 2011

Hi Allen,

Yes, the baffle is a white color.
There are two of them however...

The lower one is pushed back about even with the secondary tube, and the one above that is all the way forward.
This causes the smoke to roll forward to the door, be burned by the secondaries, then reverse to get out the flue

I have a condar probe in the stack, and a magnetic on the side of the stove.
My IR thermoeter shows very close to the magnetic.

Rob

DexterDay · Nov 25, 2011

Are you reloading on a full Hot bed of coals? Or letting the stove cool down and burn tue coals down?

Have you tried to partially block the same holes for the dog house air?

Reloading on hot coals can make an uncontrollable fire.

bpm44 · Nov 26, 2011

I typically have been running a peak of 500. Two year old plus mix of hardwoods. Once the fan kicks on it does drop the temp by about 75 degrees depending on the setting. It hasn't been too cold here yet so I haven't pushed the stove at all. I have a Raytech IR that reads pretty much the same to verify it.

What I did since the Condar temp gauge was a bit to big to fit on the face of the stove body above the upper left corner of the door was to take my dremel tool with a cut off disc and slice off about 1/4 to 3/8" from the bottom of the gauge. Fits there perfectly now.

oldspark · Nov 26, 2011

Alan-is your chimney a 6 inch lined flue, where at in NW Iowa?

Corey · Nov 26, 2011

1400F would be glowing a dull red...that just seems crazy hot. What is this 'thermometer'? Is it actually a thermocouple? This sounds almost like a mismatch between thermocouple/probe type and what the display is set to. (ie a type K thermocouple and the display set to read type J or something else.)

Beyond that, is there any way you can check between the probe and the gun up to 600F? Maybe measure stove top temp or something? That would at least give you an indication if it's in the ballpark.

oldspark · Nov 26, 2011

1400 internal wood not be glowing red I dont think, the testing (by some from this forum) has found the external temp of the stove pipe to be half the internal so puts it at about 7 to 800 hundred which would not be glowing.

DexterDay · Nov 26, 2011

oldspark said:
1400 internal wood not be glowing red I dont think, the testing (by some from this forum) has found the external temp of the stove pipe to be half the internal so puts it at about 7 to 800 hundred which would not be glowing.

Thought it was opposite. The flue gas is twice the temp of the reading (i.e.- 400* on thermo, means 800 internal)??

oldspark · Nov 26, 2011

I HOPE that 1400 in internal, because if it is not it wont be just glowing a little, has to be does it not.

oldspark · Nov 26, 2011

DexterDay said:
oldspark said:

1400 internal wood not be glowing red I dont think, the testing (by some from this forum) has found the external temp of the stove pipe to be half the internal so puts it at about 7 to 800 hundred which would not be glowing.

Click to expand...

Thought it was opposite. The flue gas is twice the temp of the reading (i.e.- 400* on thermo, means 800 internal)??

That is what I said.

DexterDay · Nov 26, 2011

oldspark said:
DexterDay said:

oldspark said:

1400 internal wood not be glowing red I dont think, the testing (by some from this forum) has found the external temp of the stove pipe to be half the internal so puts it at about 7 to 800 hundred which would not be glowing.

Click to expand...

Thought it was opposite. The flue gas is twice the temp of the reading (i.e.- 400* on thermo, means 800 internal)??

Click to expand...

That is what I said.

Oops... Read it wrong. Sorry. You are correct. My mistake. Read to quickly.

oldspark · Nov 26, 2011

Cool I thought I was going crazy. ;-P

DexterDay · Nov 26, 2011

oldspark said:
Cool I thought I was going crazy. ;-P

Nope.. Your not. But I may be! ;-P

Corey · Nov 26, 2011

oldspark said:
1400 internal wood not be glowing red I dont think, the testing (by some from this forum) has found the external temp of the stove pipe to be half the internal so puts it at about 7 to 800 hundred which would not be glowing.

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear...If the probe is measuring 1400F and that is the true temperature, then [the probe] would be glowing red hot.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Temperature_when_metal_glows_red/

C F Color

400 752 Red heat, visible in the dark
474 885 Red heat, visible in the twilight
525 975 Red heat, visible in the daylight
581 1077 Red heat, visible in the sunlight
700 1292 Dark red
800 1472 Dull cherry-red
900 1652 Cherry-red
1000 1832 Bright cherry-red
1100 2012 Orange-red

C= Centigrade
F= Farenheit

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