NC-30-Third burn, still same starting problems.

Eeeewwww. That 4 ft horizontal run is killin ya. Most mfrs don't recommed going over 2 ft. Is there any upward pitch to that? The 2 90's & the long horizontal run is really putting the brake on things. How tall is the exterior chimney?

Get rid of the 90's, replace with 45's and a diagonal pc of pipe between. You can't expect an EPA stove to function like the old smoke dragon.

EDIT: Pen's advice with the super cedar should get things going in the right direction. Good luck

I have roughly the same set up with the same stove. I had the same problem, then I bought a propane torch--it was under $15--and I light the torch and put it in the stove upright for a a few minutes. The two pieces of fireboard on the ceiling of the firebox will slide apart about 1/4 of and inch and I have the flame positioned right under the stove pipe in the box. If I let it run for 3-5 minutes and warm the flue and box a bit, I have zero smoke backdraft when I light the kindling. The propane torch is a life saver for me.

When the smoke pours out of the stove, where does it pour from? I have about the same horizontal run you have - maybe three feet. I use more kindling than it seems most people on this forum use. I need a quick start to get a good draft. I leave the door cracked open to start.

Similar advice with different utensils - have you tried leaving the stove door open for awhile before lighting it, allowing the room air to work it's way up the cold pipe? Have you cracked a basement window before lighting? Alternatives to the propane torch would be a hair dryer or candle. Keeping propane inside the house scares me quite a bit.

Once the weather stays cold, you'll run the stove more and not have to relight with a cold heavy column of air pushing against it.

MGH, true, your smoke dragon may very well have drafted great, but this is not a smoke dragon is it?
Like trying to race a muscle car from the 60's, then trying to race a little light 4 cyl souped up Scion the same way nowadays.
2 Different beasts.

Pen illustrated my point perfectly.
Rest is up to you.

pen said:

If it is single wall pipe changing out the 90 for 2, 45's is easy to do.

here's an example of what I'm talking about

pen

Click to expand...

Minus the Magic Heat and the Nos, that is how my Heritage set up looks with two 45s going into the chimney. Works well and I think it looks better than a big 90 degree turn.

Chettt said:

Similar advice with different utensils - have you tried leaving the stove door open for awhile before lighting it, allowing the room air to work it's way up the cold pipe? Have you cracked a basement window before lighting? Alternatives to the propane torch would be a hair dryer or candle. Keeping propane inside the house scares me quite a bit.

Once the weather stays cold, you'll run the stove more and not have to relight with a cold heavy column of air pushing against it.

Click to expand...

Exterior Chimney? I've got one. Have tried all the previous suggestions.
Cracking a window....Psycological advantage only.
Leaving the stove door open for warm air to reverse the draft....just makes the room colder.
Placing a candle in the firebox...blows the minor "warmth" of the candle into the room. Chim remains cold.
Placing a can of Sterno in the firebox...same effect, but also offers the aroma of a catering table. (I really thought this would work and tried it several times.)
Hair dryer...Bingo! Not only does it work; it works quickly...less than 60 seconds.

Specifics: Hair dryer should be placed right at the flue opening. It's not just the temperature, but also the volume of air. I run it on low to avoid kicking up any ash or soot, but it's not really a problem. The biggest mess factor is when I bump my arm on the stove and get ash on my shirtsleeve.

BTW...This is something that is very annoying and appears unconquerable, but it's not that bad after you get it licked.

pen said:

If it is single wall pipe changing out the 90 for 2, 45's is easy to do.

here's an example of what I'm talking about

pen

EDIT: The air intake is the round hole you'll see if you look at the back / bottom of the stove. I stuff the hair dryer (which has a round tapered front) right in there and let it rip for a min.

Click to expand...

Pen,
Do you stuff the hair dryer before or after you light the stove? does it matter when its done?

Prior to getting the NO30 i had an old Consolidated Dutchwest on which I used to stick the hair dryer right up the flue pipe, unfortunately with the NC30 i am not able to do so since it has the ceramic plates which block access to the pipe. MGH, I feel our pain, i go though this every time i light my NC30. Very frustrating.

ok, remedies aside lets look at the physics of this.

air in a chimney will rise if the air inside of the stack is warmer than the air outside provided the warm air escaping out the stack is high enough above the roof (see 10-3-2 rule)

this effect increases as the temperature between the two increases, which is why using heat to prewarm the pipe is an effective band-aid, but its still a bandaid

second thing, all repeat ALL houses have a moderately lower air pressure within them compared to outdoors this is why when you open your front door in most cases you feel air coming in , and its also why "drafty houses" are still drafty eevn on calm days. some houses are more "tight" than others and because of this the negative pressure tends to be stronger in newer tighter houses than in older draftier ones so chimneys dont "draw" as well. the pull of the rising coloumn of air is being pulled against by the lower house pressure , kind of like a vacuum effect though not as pronounced. so what we always have is a tug of war between the chimney's draw and the house's negative pressure. one should note also that this negative pressure is added to with appliances in the house such as bathroom vents, range hoods and the biggie , your clothes dryer. all of these remove air from the house that must be replaced in order to maintain close to neutral pressure. this is why OAK's are popular for installations in tight houses.

this is how i usually explain it to my customers, see if the "ligt bulb" comes on with this;

take a bottle of pop (soda beer whatever) put a straw in it and drink, easy right? now imagine stoppering the bottle and putting a straw through the stopper and drink, you would probably suck he straw flat trying to take that drink, here's why, as you suck the drink out through the straw, air enters the mouth of the bottle to replace the liquid being drawn out. with the stopper in place the air cannot get in so the vacuum effect becomes too strong to pull out the drink. now, with the stoppered bottle, add a second straw and drink through the first, you are right back to drinking easily.

the bottle is the house,the straw is the flue ,your act of drinking is the draft of the flue. the stopper represents "tightness" such as new construction, new windows etc. , and lastly, the second straw is the OAK.


now, assuming the flue is set up correctly(again , 10-3-2) the reason smoke is drawn into the room is because the room (or the house itself) "pulls" harder than the cool chimney. the "crack a window thing may help but one must allow ample time for house pressure to equalize bafore attempting to light the stove.here's a trick to see when flue is pulling, simply open the door a slight crack, light a match, candle or lighter flame and hold it in the crack between the door and the stove face, if the flue is "winning" you will see the flame lean into the stove, if the house is "winning" the flame will stand straight or even bend out into the room. the Physics are straightforward in order to keep the smoke from being pulled into the house the flue needs to pull it up the stack, proper chimney setup and equal pressure are the keys.

hope this helps ya

one more thing , being as the stove is in the basement (sorry missed that part) you have one more obstacle to deal with , you are below the "zero pressure line' in the house.

air rises in a house when warmer than outside just like it does in a flue, however as the air rises it doesnt excape easily out nor does replacement air come in so the air in a basement is slightly lower in pressure than upstairs, this magnifies the effect of negative pressure, i note hat you even had to slightly prewarm the flue with the older stove as well.

an indirect way to supply "make up air" without hooking up an OAK is to make an airlock system with a cold air well. a simple method could be done this way and i know it works as i actualy did this at my dad's house to solve a very similar problem.


you need a 5 gallon bucket and some 3 inch PVC pipe.
drill a 3 inch hole in the sill plate to insert the PVC through, then a 90 elbow down the wall stopping 3 inches off the floor inside of the bucket.

what this will do is let cold air in from outside but trap it in the bucket 9our cold air well. since the air in the basement is warmer than the air coming down the pipe it wil not spill out of the bucket unless teh house "draws" it off the top of the bucket, this air will allow the constant equalization of pressure in the basement with control you would not have if a window were cracked. you only get the air you need for the flu to pull.

its cheap, easy to do and it honestly works.

mgh-pa said:

... I did have a radon system installed in the basement at the end of last winter that may contribute to more of the pressure inequalities as well.

Click to expand...

I see this as trouble. If it's the usual electric fan setup.
Can you turn it off for the winter? Your stove pipe should be accomplishing basically the same ventilation. (qualifier: depends on the setup)
Years back, it was common to alter the venting of crawl spaces from winter (none) to summer (full venting)

(I can expound upon this, but trying to shorten the post. I think my last one got out of hand.)

If the door is closed smoke should not come out through the door. Maybe there is a problem with the door, but you should still not have smoke coming out if a fire is burning and a good draft is pulling air thorugh the stove. Air should leak in, not out, once the draft is established.

I'd suggest you try a small to medium-sized fire with very dry kindling and see if you can establish a draft quickly. You want lots of heat and minimal smoke, which means small, dry pieces of wood. If you are not sure you have really dry stuff, go to Home Deport or a lumber yard and buy some cull lumber scraps. Split them to less than one inch cross sections and buld a fire. Unless you are sure it is dry, i would not trust twigs or kindling from outside to be good enough. Get a good firestarter and put it in the pile of kindling. Open the primary air. Light it and close the door, or maybe leave the door open a crack but watch carefully and shut the door in case smoke comes out. With my stove I can have the door open a crack - enough to let lots of air in but not let smoke out. If the door is opened more than an inch or so a little smoke may leak out.

Maybe you have tried this already, but if not I think it is worth a try. A lot of us have to invent a startup procedure that works with our stove.

One more thing - it has been warm this fall so maybe you aren't getting a good draft for lack of a large temperature differential between indoors and out. This weekend should be a lot colder outside which may help your draft start by itself.