All Liners created equal?

bodeen · May 1, 2006

Other than the obvious material makeup and size difference. Is there $300-400 difference? My dealer wants $950 for 6"x25' ss liner kit. No installation or insulation included! I am going to DIY. Was wondering if you all had an opinion.

Thanks,

Bodeen

Shane · May 1, 2006

There certainly is degrees of quality in liner. For 925 he's not giving you any deal but he's not ripping you off either. If you want baragain basement price you can probably find it for around 600 on the net somewhere and will likely have little trouble with parts etc. But if you want to support your local economy etc. it's 300 well spent IMO. Of course I don't shop at Wal-Mart and try to avoid any chain really as long as it's possible. Maybe I'm just a sucker but I'd rather see a local business owner be able to put his urchins through college and still eat than see a higher bonus for a 7 figure salaried Wal-mart Exec anyday.

Mike Wilson · May 1, 2006

25' x 6" of 316Ti liner, up on ebay for 299, free shipping. I'm all for supporting your local guy, but for an extra 650 plus tax, tell him to go take a hike. The guy down the road from me bought one of these kits and it was identical to what my chimney guy showed up with at my home and installed, and its the same kit I've seen installed by a completely different chimney guy in the house next door. No, I didn't take a gauge to it, but I saw the scraps, they looked and felt the same.

YMMV, but that's mine...

-- Mike

PS - I don't have any affiliation with the seller, I just don't think liners should be ridiculously expensive. Plus these guys online are unloading their winter stock.

webbie · May 1, 2006

Shane said:
There certainly is degrees of quality in liner. For 925 he's not giving you any deal but he's not ripping you off either. If you want baragain basement price you can probably find it for around 600 on the net somewhere and will likely have little trouble with parts etc. But if you want to support your local economy etc. it's 300 well spent IMO. Of course I don't shop at Wal-Mart and try to avoid any chain really as long as it's possible. Maybe I'm just a sucker but I'd rather see a local business owner be able to put his urchins through college and still eat than see a higher bonus for a 7 figure salaried Wal-mart Exec anyday.

There are differences in liner, but SOME of the stuff on eBay is the same that is being sold in the local dealer for twice the price - blame the manufacturers of this stuff!

Many of them have lots of "back room" deals going where they sell direct to anyone...sometimes even the general public (through other names)....

Nothing wrong with this - except that some of the same makers swear up and down they ONLY support dealers.

Well, the good news is that the price of stainless is WAY up and yet the customer can really get some reasonable deals. No way I would pay a grand for that!

Although there are differences, it would make sense that any which was tested to UL standards would last at least 10-20 years or longer. If you want something to REALLY last, go for rigid liner when possible. Ventinox and Homesaver are two good names in flex, while Heat-Fab is a good name in rigid.

PS. I have talked to sweeps that are replacing a LOT of older flex liner - especially when they were used with oil. UL tests are not relevant in this case for real world chimney use in terms of longevity.

Keep in mind chimney liner warranties usually do not cover the installation, which makes them relatively useless as it can cost $1000 to remove one and replace it with another - especially if insulated.

berlin · May 1, 2006

316 is good and 316Ti is better, i would buy that off ebay in a heartbeat if i was in the market for one.

begreen · May 2, 2006

I'll be pulling out a very slightly used ss liner from our chimney shortly. There will be about 25 ft. for sale soon. The chimney is being removed. How can I tell the type of stainless used? Is it stamped on the side?

wg_bent · May 2, 2006

It's like buying a Saturn VUE vs a Land Rover. Is a Saturn unsafe?

It's like a Granite counter top vs Laminate...

You get the idea.

Mike Wilson · May 19, 2006

Warren said:
It's like buying a Saturn VUE vs a Land Rover. Is a Saturn unsafe?

It's like a Granite counter top vs Laminate...

You get the idea.

I think its like buying a $300 Land Rover, vs. buying a $900 Land Rover. Its the same damned Land Rover, one guy is just making considerably more profit. If they are the same product, then buy from the least expensive source. Welcome to America.

-- Mike

bodeen · May 19, 2006

The reason for the original question. The dealer wanted $950 for their liner. Ebay has them ranging from $200 to $450. I am doing it myself so installation costs do not count. I am all about overhead and expenses but making it all for the month on one customer is no good. I bought an insert from them already at what I believe was a fair price. I believe they were trying to gouge me on the liner. I ordered a U.L. approved liner from Ebay for a ~$600 savings! I do believe in supporting my local businesses and will not shop at Wally World at all. $600 on one purchase is a little excessive.

Bodeen

Mo Heat · May 19, 2006

Webmaster said:
... If you want something to REALLY last, go for rigid liner when possible. Ventinox and Homesaver are two good names in flex, while Heat-Fab is a good name in rigid.

I have never heard anyone that I can recall, mention Elmer rigid SS liner (except me, because that's what I have). Anybody even hear of Elmer? Is it maybe rebranded or something, or just not that popular?

webbie · May 19, 2006

Mo Heat said:
Webmaster said:

... If you want something to REALLY last, go for rigid liner when possible. Ventinox and Homesaver are two good names in flex, while Heat-Fab is a good name in rigid.

Click to expand...

I have never heard anyone that I can recall, mention Elmer rigid SS liner (except me, because that's what I have). Anybody even hear of Elmer? Is it maybe rebranded or something, or just not that popular?

Elmer is one of the good ones, and is actually made by Elmer in Maine. They are not mainstream as they have never chose to be - one of those businesses that was probably happy growing from nothing to 2 million or more a year and not looking for 20 million.

They were one of the first (along with Heat-Fab) to make heavy regular stovepipe (welded seam 22 ga).

JAred · May 19, 2006

Someone forgot to mention that some liners are meant to be used with an insulation sleeve and some are not. Some are only listed to be used with insulation. so watch out there. A liner thats 400 bucks that needs 300 bucks worth of insulation is just not worth it unless the installation would benifit from beng insulated.

BrotherBart · May 20, 2006

I bought one of the "smooth wall" liner kits from a seller on eBay and I would advise sticking to the regular single ply liners. The first problem encountered was that it was too stiff to raise high enough to push it down the chimney so it had to go in from the bottom up. Because of the thickness of the two plys that created a need to ovalize it to get it through the barely over six inches throat of my smoke chamber just before entry into the first flue tile. After installation when you look down the liner some of the inner ply, which is a spirled strip of stainless is "pooched" out from the outer ply in a lot of places. The jury is out on whether a brush will go down it and if it does what is going to happen to that inner ply. Either it will lay back down against the outer ply or deform more. When the liner was delivered you could smell cutting oil a block away. Obviously used in cutting the strip for the inner ply. I lit off a test fire last night and smoke from that stuff boiled out of the liner for two hours. Looking at it this morning it appears that instead of the heat laying the inner layer back down against the outer it actually deformed it more.

Sometime before September the whole thing may be coming out and be replaced with single ply. If you have a straight shot up with over 6 1/2 inches of clearance all the way you might not have this problem but I would advise just sticking to single ply.

None of the problems are the fault/result of buying the liner off of eBay. What got here is a high quality product. It is just a problem with the two ply construction and having to deform it. I wanted the extra steel and it is biting me in the butt. I now know why everybody mostly sells single ply liners these days. If I have to replace it with single ply I will buy it from the same guy.

Ignoring the labor factor, even if I replace it I will still have only spent five hundred bucks on the two liners. And have enough caps and tees to last me a lifetime. And a big ass 25 foot piece of stainless steel drain pipe to use for something.

bodeen · May 20, 2006

The liner that I paid $325 for is a TCE product (Trans Continental Equipment). It is S.S.Ti tested to 2100Deg. F. UL. listed 1777, UL. 441, 641 & ULC S-635, ULC S-640 by Warnock Hersey.

Maybe it isnt as good as the brick and mortar stores liner (dont know what brand they are pushing) but for the price difference I can replace it three times and spend only $25 more. I dont know how good or bad this liner is either but we'll see what happens.

I did see that "smooth wall" liner on Ebay and it didnt look like the real thing to me and didnt say wether or not it was UL listed. I shyed away from that one.

Bodeen

seaken · May 24, 2006

There is no way to know for sure what your local dealer is selling. Maybe it is equivalent to what you got elsewhere, maybe it isn't. All I can say is that I will spend some time educating my customer about the differences in the liners I sell and let them choose. I don't sell or install the cheap stuff because I deal only in quality materials. That means I don't sell liners to everyone. Some folks simply cannot afford my price. It's not personal. And it's not gouging. It's a choice. You made the choice to get your liner from another, cheaper source. Maybe you got a good deal. Maybe not. But I can assure my customers that they will get quality and that I will back it up. That's worth it to some people.

Be careful with those lightweight liners. They are easy to damage. Be prepared to replace it when it begins to pit from corrosion. If your lucky it will get you by for 10 years. If you want 30 years and no headaches you'll choose the heavy duty stuff and pay the extra up front and less later.

Sean

bodeen · May 24, 2006

Of course thats "if" the local dealer is selling something thats not "lightweight" and if he is its still gouging. I'm betting its no different in thickness, weight and probably manufacturer than what I got. Unless of course it is a rigid type liner, and it's not. I am definatley going to ask what they are selling just out of curiosity.

seaken · May 25, 2006

bodeen said:
Of course thats "if" the local dealer is selling something thats not "lightweight" and if he is its still gouging. I'm betting its no different in thickness, weight and probably manufacturer than what I got. Unless of course it is a rigid type liner, and it's not. I am definatley going to ask what they are selling just out of curiosity.

It's quite possible that the dealer is selling an equivalent product to what you got. I can't tell from here. It may be that he/she simply is unaware that the same stuff is selling elsewhere for less than half their charge. He/she may be unwillig to take a loss on their inventory and figure they will sell it to someone who is not so handy with a calculator. Maybe he/she is guoging. I don't know.

All I can say is that it is not unusual for me to offer a liner kit that is more than twice the cost of other kits that are available. The type of liner is the main cause of the difference. But it also is affected by my cost. My cost may be higher to purchase a small quantity of material than it is for a large outlet who buys in large quantity. Other factors may also contribute. I'm sure a few folks think I am trying to gouge them. Most can be educated to the differences in material and understand the extra cost. Some will not appreciate the value and will look elsewhere. Thats free enterprise. I don't try to sell to everyone. I gouge no one. But the perception can sometimes be misleading.

Sean

ba_jie · Oct 27, 2008

Sorry to bring up this old old topic.

So I also happen to have an Elmer flex pipe(16 ft) which i need to extend 4 feet of Z-flex pipe with.

My question is:

Should i use the Z-flex pipe to connect the stove, or use the Elmer pipe to connecto to the stove.

The advantage of using Z-flex is it can be bent easily so less trouble to go through the damper throat area.

But since the Elmer pipe is thicker, maybe it's good idea to use it to connect the stove because it can provide better insulation or some other advantages?

Can someone shed lights on this?

webbie · Oct 27, 2008

I would not worry about thickness in that case. If it were the entire chimney - and someone had the choice between thicker or thinner...then I might choose thicker.

ba_jie · Oct 27, 2008

Thank you, Webmaster.

Webmaster said:
I would not worry about thickness in that case. If it were the entire chimney - and someone had the choice between thicker or thinner...then I might choose thicker.

All Liners created equal?

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