I unboxed my controller and opened it up today for the first time. The Garn came last week. Right away I noticed the neutrals for the coil and transformer are bonded with the ground wire. After reading different post on the anode rods and stray grounds this looks like something that should be changed. Also how does the start bottom work. It has a lead going to the ground. I suspect this is for a momentary contact for a holding relay? So it to should go to the neutral not the ground.
Garn Controller Wiring - Anyone change it? Look at the Grounds
- Thread starter BHetrick10
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Kemer
Member
I'm one of those guys with the anode problem.Can you mention this to Kieth at Garn and have him look into it.I wouldn't want to mess with out the factory approval.
Jim K in PA
Minister of Fire
No need or reason to change the factory wiring. The ground wire is another path to the neutral block, which is grounded (take a look inside your service panel). A quick tutorial can be found here: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html
The start button is a moment switch that initiates the fan relay and temp prove/timer sequence. Check your instruction sheet for details on the operation.
Modifying the wiring on any of the GARN components will void your warranty and likely create a dangerous situation.
The start button is a moment switch that initiates the fan relay and temp prove/timer sequence. Check your instruction sheet for details on the operation.
Modifying the wiring on any of the GARN components will void your warranty and likely create a dangerous situation.
Jim K in PA
Minister of Fire
Kemer said:
Harold - Give Mike Kizulka a call at Precision Chem if you have not already. Galvanic corrosion can be enhanced by some displaced current flow, but it cannot be eliminated even in the complete absence of external electrical current. Look here for some good info on sacrificial anode rod function: http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-anodes.html
Kemer
Member
ewdudley
Minister of Fire
Jim K in PA said:
So the ground is like a spare neutral. I had always heard they were two different things, so that'll be pretty handy being able to mix and match instead.
--ewd
I am an electrician that is why I say this. Your grounds and Neutrals are bonded together at a main panel. I agree. The bare ground wrapped in paper is supposed to be the ground in case something shorts out, it shouldn't have voltage going through it unless something fails. If you put the controller on a ark fault breaker like the code is make you do it would trip the breaker right away. Just some food for thought.
I am not a fan of the way its wired. The neutrals should be kept separate from the ground just like in a normal circuit and there should be a small ground bar for everything to ground to.
All there needs to be is a tail off the load side of the GFCI with the neutrals wired to it.
I am not a fan of the way its wired. The neutrals should be kept separate from the ground just like in a normal circuit and there should be a small ground bar for everything to ground to.
All there needs to be is a tail off the load side of the GFCI with the neutrals wired to it.
Yeah, I don't understand the "mix and match" like eliot said. The ground is NOT supposed to be carrying current...only when there's a fault as a protection.
Why did Dectra do this? I can understand tying the case of the controller to ground...but the neutral shouldn't be tied to the ground (or the case) in the controller....
Why did Dectra do this? I can understand tying the case of the controller to ground...but the neutral shouldn't be tied to the ground (or the case) in the controller....
jebatty
Minister of Fire
Keeping neutral and ground separate was just explained to me by the electrician as code requirement when I had a new 240v-200 amp service brought into my shop. The 200 amp drop panel is mounted on the pole, then to the shop underground is the cable to the distribution panel. This cable is L1-L2-N-Gnd, all separate. The distribution panel in the shop has separate bars for neutral and ground, keeping grounds and neutrals separate in the shop wiring. The neutral bar is NOT bonded to the panel. The Gnd bar is bonded to the panel. There also is a big notice inside the distribution panel to keep neutrals and grounds separate. No fixture box has neutrals and ground wired/bonded together. The electrical inspector also checked this on inspection. Based on what I was told, it is a code violation to bond neutral and ground together.
Frozen Canuck
Minister of Fire
BHetrick10 said:
Yes this error in wiring would be a code violation here as well. Neutral & ground wires have separate & different functions & should never be interchanged. Even if your local code would for some strange reason allow this it would be a bad idea to say the least, as you would then have current where none should exist, as well as not being properly grounded when you think you are. BTW the neutral bond & ground bond in a panel are/should be separate inside the panel itself, thus giving you the suggestion that they are to stay that way through out the entire wiring of the structure/appliance or whatever is having power supplied to it. This particular DIY portion (electrical) seems to have quite a few members confused or questioning what should be done. I would suggest that if you insist on DIYing this portion that you purchase/borrow/get from local library book(s) on wiring & ensure you are doing it to code. Personally whenever I as a carpenter DIY my own projects around the house/farm I always hire a master electrician to inspect my work prior to calling the electrical inspector. Keeps me honest, corrects any of my errors & keeps everyone safe. Usually he is finished in less than an hour so $75 service call fee covers it. Costs me a few bucks....sure....however I have the peace of mind in knowing everything is safe, as all of our kids will eventually come into contact with the work I/we have done.
Have another look at that controller. The neutral and ground are most assuredly NOT tied together. One leg of the 24 volt side of the transformer is grounded. One side of the 24 volt relay coil is grounded. The 24 volt circuits are isolated from line by the transformer.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
Looking at a schematic, I can see where that is confusing. What you guys are seeing though is the common side of the 24V circuit terminated under the ground lug. It has nothing to do with the 110V neutral side of things which of course has its own current path back to the main panel if the electrician did his part.
I haven't seen the circuit, but I'm glad to hear that the ground is not bonded to the neutral! Now one of these days I will have to hook it up! Spent last night with some temp sensors making measurements....have to get them all on...quite amazing how quickly the Garn water seems to drop....much faster than the front plate sensor would have you believe! I'll have to play some more and post some data....
Harry, if you learn anything new about the anode rods, please be sure to keep me in that loop. My new one is clearly active....and my Garn is now tied to the power ground...not to the driven ground rod.
Harry, if you learn anything new about the anode rods, please be sure to keep me in that loop. My new one is clearly active....and my Garn is now tied to the power ground...not to the driven ground rod.
Kemer
Member
So is mine I am waiting for my new rod to be delivered .I wish I could just go to the local supply house and pick one up but I want to make sure it the same as a garn rod
Kemer
Member
I will say that I am very pleased with the new controller.I just light the kindling with a blow torch,push the button and thats it.It has been very reliable when it comes to shutting down.I also like the timer that lets me know how long the burn was and also the flue and water temp. What I like about the whole setup is you can't hardly do anything stupid.Even a caveman can do it
Chris, Heaterman
You are right! I feel stupid for being an electrician and not picking that up. I just assumed the relay was 120v coil. You know what they say assuming does. I cant say I have ever done it this way before. I always still keep my 24v stuff separate. In other words I would rather see the 24v neutral and the coil neutral just wire nutted together and isolated from the grounds like a regular neutral.
Is the brown wire going to the momentary start button a 24v. I would hope so since it is also with the grounds. Still not a fan of it all. Keep neutrals together and grounds isolated dont care what the voltage is.
You are right! I feel stupid for being an electrician and not picking that up. I just assumed the relay was 120v coil. You know what they say assuming does. I cant say I have ever done it this way before. I always still keep my 24v stuff separate. In other words I would rather see the 24v neutral and the coil neutral just wire nutted together and isolated from the grounds like a regular neutral.
Is the brown wire going to the momentary start button a 24v. I would hope so since it is also with the grounds. Still not a fan of it all. Keep neutrals together and grounds isolated dont care what the voltage is.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
Kemer said:
An anode is an anode is an anode.......True to a point but there are differences. Mainly to do with "metals" content. I can go to the local supply house and buy anodes, which to the eye look identical, but range in price from about $30 to almost $100. The difference is the active metal content. You would find this if you analyzed the anode from a $299 water heater vs the anode from a $1,900 commercial use model.
Garn uses an anode with a higher than normal active metal content than a typical water heater anode. Functionally, they would probably do the same thing but there is less sacrificial material in the big box variety than you would find in the Garn anode. There is nothing to prevent you guys from trying a cheaper anode in your Garn's or similarly equipped OWB's. (did you know some OWB's have anode rods? that'll be a holy s**t, I better check! moment for a few people ) The anode will most likely work the same but offer a shorter length of service.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
BHetrick10 said:
Don't feel bad.....or alone. Lot's of Sparky's around here will not touch control wiring on our jobs.
AFA the neutrals on 24V circuits go; what you see on that Garn schematic is standard procedure on about any kind or type of heating equipment you might run across. Furnaces, boilers, AC condensing units.....you name it.
The Garn control is produced by an accredited electronics fabrication shop and the control is UL tested and listed.
Don't feel bad.....or alone. Lot's of Sparky's around here will not touch control wiring on our jobs.
AFA the neutrals on 24V circuits go; what you see on that Garn schematic is standard procedure on about any kind or type of heating equipment you might run across. Furnaces, boilers, AC condensing units.....you name it.
The Garn control is produced by an accredited electronics fabrication shop and the control is UL tested and listed.[/quote]
I dont mind control wiring. I just dont do things like that.
I guess I will leave well enough alone. I am not saying my way is the right and only way, I guess it's just a preference. Anything wrong with the way I do control wiring? That is keeping the low vt neutrals wire nutted together and separate from the grounds?
For those of you who haven't had the privileged of seeing the controller, you are missing out. It's a well built looks easy to use piece.
I hope this Garn plumbing is done for next year. I need lots of help.
AFA the neutrals on 24V circuits go; what you see on that Garn schematic is standard procedure on about any kind or type of heating equipment you might run across. Furnaces, boilers, AC condensing units.....you name it.
The Garn control is produced by an accredited electronics fabrication shop and the control is UL tested and listed.[/quote]
I dont mind control wiring. I just dont do things like that.
I guess I will leave well enough alone. I am not saying my way is the right and only way, I guess it's just a preference. Anything wrong with the way I do control wiring? That is keeping the low vt neutrals wire nutted together and separate from the grounds?
For those of you who haven't had the privileged of seeing the controller, you are missing out. It's a well built looks easy to use piece.
I hope this Garn plumbing is done for next year. I need lots of help.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
BHetrick10 said:
I dont mind control wiring. I just dont do things like that.
I guess I will leave well enough alone. I am not saying my way is the right and only way, I guess it's just a preference. Anything wrong with the way I do control wiring? That is keeping the low vt neutrals wire nutted together and separate from the grounds?
For those of you who haven't had the privileged of seeing the controller, you are missing out. It's a well built looks easy to use piece.
I hope this Garn plumbing is done for next year. I need lots of help.[/quote]
For the sake of discussion, higher edumaction, and lack of anything more vexatious to do........walk me back to the entrance panel and tell me what happens to the neutrals and grounds in your panels once they all get there. I am not an electrician by any means so this is said only partly tongue in cheek.
Not sure if you are poking fun at me or just being funny? (Those are big words I never used and had to google, Still think its over my head though :roll: )
At any rate. As stated before the grounds and neutral all go to the same place back and the main panel. ANYTHING after that is SUPPOSED to be ISOLATED according to code. This applies to Line voltage most inspectors dont seem to check L.VT things. The ground wire is a path for power to go if something shorts out. It is not designed to be a conductor hence the paper around it. The neutral wire is to complete the circuit.
Any one ever been shocked by a neutral? Say not? Well I have and it happens. Take the neutral wire off back at the panel of any giver circuit that is under load and rub it against the neutral bar. Looks neat lots of sparks :bug: . Now tell me it is ok to take a wire that is only wrapped in paper and use it for this purpose? I realize in this case it is low voltage. That brings up an other valid point anyone ever been shocked by a car battery? How about a phone line? I have. These control wires with the ground still don't agree with me. We are relying on a paper coated wire to complete a circuit. If it were supplied with MC/BX I wouldn't care because the ground is coated. I bet if you unhook that ground wire are rub it to the lug it will spark since it is completing a circuit.
You could look at it like the hot wire is like a water line that takes water to a faucet. The Neutral would be the drain and return the water. The ground would be if there is a leak and you use a bucket to catch it.
At any rate. As stated before the grounds and neutral all go to the same place back and the main panel. ANYTHING after that is SUPPOSED to be ISOLATED according to code. This applies to Line voltage most inspectors dont seem to check L.VT things. The ground wire is a path for power to go if something shorts out. It is not designed to be a conductor hence the paper around it. The neutral wire is to complete the circuit.
Any one ever been shocked by a neutral? Say not? Well I have and it happens. Take the neutral wire off back at the panel of any giver circuit that is under load and rub it against the neutral bar. Looks neat lots of sparks :bug: . Now tell me it is ok to take a wire that is only wrapped in paper and use it for this purpose? I realize in this case it is low voltage. That brings up an other valid point anyone ever been shocked by a car battery? How about a phone line? I have. These control wires with the ground still don't agree with me. We are relying on a paper coated wire to complete a circuit. If it were supplied with MC/BX I wouldn't care because the ground is coated. I bet if you unhook that ground wire are rub it to the lug it will spark since it is completing a circuit.
You could look at it like the hot wire is like a water line that takes water to a faucet. The Neutral would be the drain and return the water. The ground would be if there is a leak and you use a bucket to catch it.
heaterman
Minister of Fire
BHetrick10 said:
I've been accused of being funny before....in a certain sense of the word.......and probably will be again. Life is too short to be serious all the time.
I would never ridicule anyone on a public forum. Mom and dad brought me up better than that. Seriously
I understand what you are saying about a neutral and ground being tied together and for the record, every install we do is done with MC cable (pictures on the Royall 6200 thread for example) for the exact reason you state.
I was however, under the impression that the common side of a LV transformer is more like a ground than a neutral and that is the reason it is treated that way in dang near every heating appliance I have ever seen. Now........that being said.........every single heating appliance I have ever seen also has 100% of the ground wiring covered. There are no bare grounds to be found anywhere. Even on the old stuff. Of course, some of that, as well as the wire running to it, didn't have any ground in it in the first place so.....whazzupwidat?
Interesting topic in my opinion.
Here is another way I look at it. Technically the ground is for safety only. Its there if something goes wrong. Lets say there is no ground at all like in old homes. Everything still works and will continue to work. What if something shorts out? Well that is where the least path of resistance comes in, hopefully no one gets hurts.
Now back to the controller. What happens if we remove that ground wire? It no longer will function, will it? In my opinion that means the ground is used for something it shouldn't be. ;-)
Here is another way I look at it. Technically the ground is for safety only. Its there if something goes wrong. Lets say there is no ground at all like in old homes. Everything still works and will continue to work. What if something shorts out? Well that is where the least path of resistance comes in, hopefully no one gets hurts.
Now back to the controller. What happens if we remove that ground wire? It no longer will function, will it? In my opinion that means the ground is used for something it shouldn't be. ;-)
heaterman
Minister of Fire
BHetrick10 said:
Kinda. There is little in the way of electronic anything that will function properly (if at all) without a ground and lord help us all if the polarity is reversed. The electronic control on a lot of different types of equipment is setup to "look for" a ground when fired up as well as correct polarity. It needs it for reference, proper counting (cycles per second) and just to know it's there. It will not function otherwise. That particular part of the puzzle doesn't have much to do with what the discussion above is driving at.
I remember when the first 90% furnaces came out and people attempted to just connect them to the old existing 2 wire cable. Polarity be damned. Oyyy! You'd have thought the world was coming to an end according to some of the old timers in the HVAC trade around here.
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