Indoor Gasification Boiler consuption?

RyanB · Dec 16, 2011

Hello everyone, First time poster here from Ontario, Canada (1 hour north of Lake Erie) but I have been a member for over a year and have done alot of reading!

I am currently looking into an Econoburn 150,000 or 200,000 to heat our 2000sf home and shop.The house very well insulated, Spray foamed 2x4 walls (R20) and have R60 in the attic and the shop which is my woodworking shop 1200 sqft and is 2x6 walls with spray foam (R34) and the attic again has R60. The house will have a heat exchanger in the propane furnace and I will be heating the pottable water also ahead of our tankless propane water heater (hopeing to have the wanter heating fire minamally durring the heating season). My shop has floor heating in the concrete pad.

I am planning on having a minimum of 1000gallon storage tank. After talking to the rep at Econoburn he stated that I could easily run the 150,000 with a storage tank that size with no issues at all which would cut down on consumtion of wood.

Just wondering what you all would estimate on wood consumtion for my circumstances? I live in the middle of a 15 acre hard maple bush and have alot of wood.

Currently we heat mostly with wood in the house with an EPA wood stove and go thru 12 face cord per year. In the shop I currently head with a High efficency 80,000but propane furnace and go thru about $120 per month dec,jan,feb.

What do you all think? Just trying to figure out if its going to be worth it to swap over the gasification unit compared to what we currently have.

Thanks in advance...RyanB

jimdeq · Dec 16, 2011

I am wondering how much did all that spray foam cost? I ask this because I think at a certain point where a structure is super insulated there has to be a cost vs benefit factor to determine how much money do you spend in a heating system. Im sure the boiler and tank with all accessories will cost another 12 to 15 thousand. Comfort is another consideration. Wood heat gives more of a option to turn the thermostat up a little higher with out breaking the wallet. One last consideration is your physical health. It takes alot of time and work to burn 2 year old seasoned wood. I consider it good exercise ,but it is still work.

bpirger · Dec 16, 2011

If you are saying your wood is "free", then it sounds like now it only costs you what you pay for propane to heat the shop and DHW needs. If that's $1000 per year, and this is purely a financial decision, you'll take MANY years to get that back. A system will cost you $15K, give or take a few thousand, most likely. So that's many years to get the return.

But there are other advantages. No longer do you need the mess of wood burning inside. As was stated, you can turn up the temp without cringing as you do.

Gassers like dry wood, and most here will tell you being at least a year ahead is essential. Many will say two years ahead with your wood supply.

If you know the heat load of the shop, you can more guesstimate how much wood you will burn. With say 20M BTUs from a cord of wood, that will give you an idea.

I went from burning the woodstove inside (Lopi Liberty) to having the Garn warm the floors, all radiant heat. I believe I burn more wood in the Garn to do this, but I am also heating all the DHW as well. Also, I have an addition and shop/garage I'd like to heat someday (all radiant) and there's now way I would burn oil to heat the garage/shop. So, it was clear to me that putting in the boiler was the right move, even though I heated the house just fine with the Lopi inside.

However I didn't want to have two fires burning (one in the addition, one in the main house) and with the desire to heat the shop/garage....

It is very nice not to have the mess from a woodstove inside. Assuming I burned oil for the addition, I figure my payback time is still many years (maybe 7-10)?. Add in the shop/garage (which I'm not heating yet....not yet insulated....nor the addition for that matter), then the payback time drops to likely 5 years.

I enjoy the work getting wood, though it is time consuming.

I have a 2500 sqft house, R19/R38 fiberglass, lots of windows, and I burned about 5-6 cords inside. I'm at about 6-7 cords in the Garn, also heating all my DHW. I haven't burned a drop of oil since my first fire on 17NOV10. I burned all summer for DHW, one fire every three to four days. I burned junky spruce for that I had around, so that would add another 1.5-2 cords likely to the number for an all year cycle.

A boiler is not inexpensive....but presumably propane/oil will only increase in price. I find it very rewarding to NOT have to purchase/burn the fossil fuels....that alone is worth something to me.

There is loss in the plumbing, underground, etc. so you will lose some of your heat to unconditioned spaces, unlike a wood stove. But likely the Econoburn (or other gasser) would be more efficient than the stove. Certainly more versatile. When you expand the shop, you will be all set for heat.... If this is planned in the forseeable future, be sure to factor in those additional savings as well.

stee6043 · Dec 16, 2011

As stated above if you're spending $120 a month and burning 4 cord per year right now your payback on a gasser is going to be a looonnnggg time. Do you have any idea what your actual heat loss is? If not, step one should be finding out.

For what it's worth I heat 3200 sq. ft. of home, not as well insulated as yours, on roughly 4 cord between the end of October and March/April (+/-, depends on the winter).

I personally would never consider investing in a gasser in your position. My payback is legitimately in the 4-6 year ballpark. 7+ if you include the trailer I bought to support my wood hauling. I suspect you'd be well over 10 years on the low side. At that point your money would be much better invested in a lot of other things.

hobbyheater · Dec 16, 2011

RyanB said:
Hello everyone, First time poster here from Ontario, Canada (1 hour north of Lake Erie) but I have been a member for over a year and have done alot of reading!

I am currently looking into an Econoburn 150,000 or 200,000 My shop has floor heating in the concrete pad.

I am planning on having a minimum of 1000gallon storage tank.

Just wondering what you all would estimate on wood consumtion for my circumstances? I live in the middle of a 15 acre hard maple bush and have alot of wood.

1 Here is the link to a "Home Lost Calculator" Here you can get a good idea what the heat loss for your home and shop will be.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

2 Look at the type of wood you are going to burn and find its BTU potential. This link takes you to a site where you can find the info.

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G5450

3 When you know the BTU heat potential of your wood per cord and the annual BTU heat loss of your home and shop, divide 80% of heat potential of the cords BTU's into the heat loss figure for your buildings and you will have the number of cords that you will need.

RyanB · Dec 16, 2011

Thanks for the info guys!

I am in my early 30's and love cutting and splitting wood. Non of the wood costs me anything other than my time and I have been told by my forest manager (I have my property in a forest management program which cuts my property taxes down on all but 1 acre to almost nothing) that I can physcially take 2-3 face cord per acer from the property with doing an damage to the bush lot. 2 years ago I had 3 acres of the property marked for fuel wood due to that area being heavly over grown with Ash, Cherry and Maple pole wood and having basil counts that were double of what is recomended for a healthy bush lot. Thinning that section, I got 18 bush cord which I still have 5 cord left plus the amount that is going to be burnt this season. In the next few weeks I am having the rest of the bush logged for maple saw & veneer logs with some ash also. They are taking 38 maples from 18-38" in diameter and 16 ash with diameters from 18" to 34". The estimate for fuel wood from the tops of the saw log tree's are 28 bush cord, and I also had the rest of the bush marked for "cull" pole wood and there is estimated at another 7 bush cord with that.

I have storage for 25 bush cord under roof for drying (its almost like a corn crib with wire 4" wire mesh sides, steel roof with lots of over hang and it has a mesh floor with 1 foot air gap between the mesh and the ground below it.

I deffinatly think I have enough wood, and storage that for me it only makes sense to be able to take advantage of that. The cost of insulating the house actually wasnt to bad at all as my wifes Cousin has an insulating bussiness and it only made sense to tear all the fiberglass out and go foam when we decieded to re-do 3/4's of the main floor of our house this past year. The only rooms left to do are 3 bedrooms which we are going to tackle this coming spring.

I agree that I would rather not have the wood stove in the house due to the mess but would still like to have it as back up or to fire up if company is coming over just for the warm and cozy feel. When we first bought the place we heated with the forced air propane until mid January of that year and figured out we couldn't afford the $450 per month we were eating up when we had all the firewood on the property. We landed up buying an EPA wood stove and bought 3 cords to finish us off for that season. Granted, the house is insulated better now than it was but if I go with those numbers of $450 per month, plus the $75 per month in the non heating summer for the DHW I figure I would be saving over 3000$ per year on the house and $750 for the shop and we would have more consitant balanced heat thru the entire house.

So all this being said, I guess I am just trying to figure out the aproximate consumtion rate of the gasser unit

Ryan

bpirger · Dec 16, 2011

Consumption will depend on your load, your heating temp, etc. In my experience, I burn a bit more with the boiler than I did with the woodstove, but I also heat DHW. SO, for a WAG at this, I'd say you'll burn what you do now, plus whatever it takes to heat your shop (again, take 20M BTU/full cord and estimate your shop load), plus your DHW. So at the end of the day, you'll likely be in the 6-7 cord ballpark.

But there are many variables, and as stated above, you really need to know your shop load.

So, double your wood usage (almost), invest your $15K, and then you can join the gasser club! It might not make sense (or cents) financially directly, but you will have to weight all the various factors....

hobbyheater · Dec 16, 2011

RyanB said:
What do you all think? Just trying to figure out if its going to be worth it to swap over the gasification unit compared to what we currently have.

Thanks in advance...RyanB

Have you looked at the cost of house insurance? In spite of the fact we have a very safe system (wood gasification and heat storage), we still have to pay 25% surcharge on our house insurance because this system is our primary source of heat.

RyanB · Dec 16, 2011

asked my insurance agent (my aunt) about that an she said that my insurance will go down with moving my primary heat sorce out an outbuilding on the property.

hobbyheater · Dec 16, 2011

RyanB said:
asked my insurance agent (my aunt) about that an she said that my insurance will go down with moving my primary heat sorce out an outbuilding on the property.

I would love to know what underwriter she works with. I had discussed with our broker about moving the boiler outside away from the house and was told that the surcharge would still apply!

stee6043 · Dec 16, 2011

hobbyheater said:
RyanB said:

What do you all think? Just trying to figure out if its going to be worth it to swap over the gasification unit compared to what we currently have.

Thanks in advance...RyanB

Click to expand...

Have you looked at the cost of house insurance? In spite of the fact we have a very safe system (wood gasification and heat storage), we still have to pay 25% surcharge on our house insurance because this system is our primary source of heat.

Holy smokes. Not even close. I pay nowhere near 25% extra.

hobbyheater · Dec 16, 2011

:cheese:

RyanB said:
Thanks for the info guys!

So all this being said, I guess I am just trying to figure out the aproximate consumtion rate of the gasser unit

Ryan

The gasification unit that I have is very consistent .If the wood burnt has the potential to produce 1,000,000 BTU's 800,000 ends up in the storage tank. :cheese:

hobbyheater · Dec 16, 2011

stee6043 said:
Holy smokes. Not even close. I pay nowhere near 25% extra.

If you could find out the underwriter that your broker has you insured with I would love to know . For me insurance is a real sore point.

Hunderliggur · Dec 17, 2011

Face cord, bush cord? We normally talk about cords, 128 cubic feet (4x4x8), stacked. Anything else is a guess. I have 44 acres with a forest plan and can take 5 to 10 cords of mixed hardwoods a year.

RobC · Dec 17, 2011

Originally I went from my wood stove to the Tarm boiler because of the skyrocketing oil prices 4 years ago.
Yes, there is the up front cost but for me there are other benefits besides just heat. We don't use home heating oil. It's nice not to support OPEC. We burn year round for DHW. Exercise, and this has turned into a bit of a hobby. Winter is my slow season.
It sounds to me your in a good position to take advantage of a boiler and storage set up. If your a DIYer you could continue planning and start the install as time & budget allows and be in a great place for next year. They do take time to build.
My house is about the same size as Stee's 3200 or 3400 sq ft. I go through closer to 6-7 cords in a 12 month period. That's a bit of a guess. I pay more attention to cordage when I put up the wood but then kinda just use it and don't really track it as it's being consumed.
Cheers and welcome.....Rob

ihookem · Dec 17, 2011

Ryan, I have almost the same house as you. Mine is 2200 sq. ft. ranch 9' walls with 2x6 walls, 4" foam (r28) and r 60 in attic.I am at the same lat. as you. I used 10 face cord my 1st year and 12 the second with hot water. My house averages 69* or so. Your shop is easy @15k btu's per pound for propane will tell you your wood use. Many are telling you your payback will be a lllloooonnng time. They are absolutely right. Mine is 6-7 years. Not sure I'd do it all over again neither. The reason is what I always say. Insulate a house very well and it is hardly worth 9,500 dollars for a gassifier. I have an EKO 25. It idles all the time once I get the house to temp. Even at below 0 it heats it with ease with no storage. If I get storage it will use less cause it idles so often no. A little small for what you need though.

RyanB · Dec 18, 2011

ihookem said:
Ryan, I have almost the same house as you. Mine is 2200 sq. ft. ranch 9' walls with 2x6 walls, 4" foam (r28) and r 60 in attic.I am at the same lat. as you. I used 10 face cord my 1st year and 12 the second with hot water. My house averages 69* or so. Your shop is easy @15k btu's per pound for propane will tell you your wood use. Many are telling you your payback will be a lllloooonnng time. They are absolutely right. Mine is 6-7 years. Not sure I'd do it all over again neither. The reason is what I always say. Insulate a house very well and it is hardly worth 9,500 dollars for a gassifier. I have an EKO 25. It idles all the time once I get the house to temp. Even at below 0 it heats it with ease with no storage. If I get storage it will use less cause it idles so often no. A little small for what you need though.

Thanks for the info Ihookem, sounds like our places are very comparable!
There are a few things that I should have mention for my reasoning for wanting a high efficency boiler and Im not sure if this will change anyones views on my situation.

The biggest benifite for me having the boiler will be in my woodshop. Its not a hobby shop but my actual bussiness (I build custom kitchens and other cabinetry.... www.premiercustomwoodworks.com is my website if anyone wants to check out what I do). Anyway, I have two big issues dealing with the shop that would easily be taken care of with a boiler system. My first issue is due to the forced air furnace I battle dryness issues in the shop all winter (Lack of humidity) and I am forced to constantly have to humidifiers running constantly in the shop. I have worked in 2 woodshops in the past that had infloor heat systems and the humidity levels stayed at a constant mid 60's all heating season with interior temperatures of 65d's C. The major issue with working in the shop with very dry air isn't necesairly about boards cracking and cupping durring the heating season, but wood panels being glued together when they are shrunk down below there normal state due to low humidity, and then go thru some major expansion in the sumer seasons and possibly blowing door and panel joints apart and causing some major warantee work.

My other major reason for wanting the boiler system is for my finishing system/booth. I don't have 30+ thousand dollars for an air make up system (seperate gas furance that super heats air coming from outside the shop, then goes thru the spray both and exits thru the exaust blower system). The nice thing about the air make up systems is it creates a positive pressure that keeps dust out of the booth but again, its way to much money for my one man shop let along the major amount of fuel to run the system. Currently when I run my both, it creates a vacum in the booth and entire shop pushing all the hot air from the shop outside the building and in return pulling freezing cold thru every little crack in the shop (garage doors are the worst). When I am spraying its not uncommon for the furnace to run non stop, full tilt for as long as I am spraying. What I am wanting to have done is put a large heat excanger in oposite exterior wall of the booth as the exaust fan. This will heat the air coming into the building and also create a neutral pressure in the both making my finishing far more efficienct and catching all of the over spray in the filter system instead of it hanging in the air. From what I have heard from other shops with a similar setup, running the spray booth will no longer drop the temperature of the rest of the shop in major amounts like it is with my current setup.

One other thing that in my eye's is a major help for me purchasing it on the private individual side of things, is that my bussiness will be paying me for all the fuel being used at the current market rate, instead of the bussiness handing out the money to the propane company. This alone in my mind, will help me personally be able to pay off the system faster. I didn't really want to bring this particular issue up but after reading alot of the posts in this tread about how it will not be worth it for me...I thought I should bring it up anyway.

Thanks again for all the info guys...RyanB

Fi-Q · Dec 18, 2011

Well, the way you are seeing it make sense. Ans someime money is not the only thing to consider. Comfort, flexibility and peace of mind might be worth a lot of money for some people. I think ou should go for it.... And who knows maybe in 10 years energy price will be 10 time more exPensive than what it is now, and then you ll be: awesome !!!

I have a system that is paid for !! And its not costing me a dime to heat the house , shop & dhw. Anyway, look at everybodys opinion, but you need to ask yourself ( and most likely you wife) if your ready to put that much money in something that, money wise, might not be the best option.

I think you should go for it

mr.fixit · Dec 18, 2011

Ryan
I have a similar type business also.Love your website,nice work.
I heat the house,garage,and 2 shop buildings with the eko.Works great.
I also had the same problems with the make up air issue you have and I did what you are thinking of with the water to air HX.
I mounted the HX (I think it was 24" by 24")in the wall opposite of the exhaust fan.The spray room is a seperate building from the shop.

It works great but one thing I have to change is to isolate the water to air HX from the rest of the boiler system with a flat plate HX and put antifreeze on the water to air side.
First time I used it at 20F outside air temps it froze up.It split one of the lower u tubes on the coil but I was able to solder it ok.
Now I only use it when over 32f outside.
During colder weather I close off the outside air intake and use a fan in front of the HX to maintain temp while spraying.I just crack the service door for air.

On the humidity issue I have the infloor heat in the shop and I still have to bring the humidity level up some with a humidifier.
I think the way my dust collection system is set up it brings alot of outside air in when you run it for long periods.

RyanB · Dec 18, 2011

mr.fixit said:
On the humidity issue I have the infloor heat in the shop and I still have to bring the humidity level up some with a humidifier.
I think the way my dust collection system is set up it brings alot of outside air in when you run it for long periods.

That deffinatly makes a difference. My DC system is all inside the shop (onieda)

Thanks for your info... Ryan

ihookem · Dec 18, 2011

I don't think the gasser is gong to bring your humidity down much. I say this cause I have a humid house cause my gasser does not draw out water from the air like my regular furnace does. Hope this makes sense. I think the cold air coming in is a bigger problem cause it's so dry. My windows are always moistened up in the morning. When my wife cooks it's almost sauna like cause the damp air just circulates and is so air tight it stays 50% most times. So air tight we need to open windows on dry days and humidity level goes down real fast but climbs back up daily. I imagine taking some saw dust and water it down somw would help. Or am I talkin all goofy?

hobbyheater · Dec 19, 2011

ihookem said:
I don't think the gasser is gong to bring your humidity down much. I say this cause I have a humid house cause my gasser does not draw out water from the air like my regular furnace does. Hope this makes sense. I think the cold air coming in is a bigger problem cause it's so dry. My windows are always moistened up in the morning. When my wife cooks it's almost sauna like cause the damp air just circulates and is so air tight it stays 50% most times. So air tight we need to open windows on dry days and humidity level goes down real fast but climbs back up daily. I imagine taking some saw dust and water it down somw would help. Or am I talkin all goofy?

This sounds right on :exclaim: . About year ago I remote mounted the blower and plumbed the air to the boiler so it could draw its combustion air directly from the outside. Since then we have experienced more condensation on the windows. At times we now have to run a dehumifier, something we never had to do before. Your thread really makes sense.

mr.fixit · Dec 19, 2011

My boiler is in a building other than the shop.
Used to have a woodstove right in the woodshop,until I tried to insure the building.
Insurance co. said no way.
Thats when I put the boiler in.
A easy way to put humidity in the air is to pour a bucket of water on the floor when leaving the shop at night.Aways dried up by morning.
You have to be careful not to splash on the machinery or wood stock.

RyanB · Dec 19, 2011

deffinatly makes sense that it would happen if the gasser is in the same building as you are talking about but for me the reason I am wanting it is because with nothing but floor heat in the shop(gasser will be located in another building 100 feet away) the radiant heat coming off the floor will actuall heat objects in the room and physically not the air. Once the objects become warm the air will then feel warmer. I have been in a few local menonite wood shops that heat with floor heating and have no issues once so ever with dry air or air that is to humid. I have also been in a few shops that heat with wood stoves (dumbest thing I have ever seen for a dusty wood shop) and they are so dry they needed to buy industrial humidifiers.

Indoor Gasification Boiler consuption?

Member

Member

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Member

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Member

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Member

Feeling the Heat

Feeling the Heat

Member

Minister of Fire

Minister of Fire

Attachments

Feeling the Heat

Member

Similar threads