Homeowners Insurance..... Cancelled Because of Wood Usage

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woodmiser said:
I have filed many claims with State Farm. They have been great.

(2003) Tree fell on house and truck.... around $20,000 (Hurricane)

(2008) Tree fell on newly built garage polebarn (neighbor's tree) $19,000 and change. (Severe wind storm)

(2011) Tree struck by lightning $800

(2011) Branch punctured hole in roof... water damage ($2000) (Hurricane)

Let's just say I'm a little ahead of the game.
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sounds like your why my state farm insurance has gone up so high even though i have been with them 25 years with no claims.
 
So if you had answered 2 cords you would have been fine???? That is strange. I wonder if they ask other home owners how much fuel oil they burn in a winter? There are a bunch of ins. companies who don't give 2 s*#ts how much you burn. I guess they really didn't want your buisness.
 
MikeThePipe said:
Well you just got a lesson in the quicksands laughingly called insurance. There are a few more you would do well to avoid.
#1 Insurance is a scam. It is a device to seperate people from real money in exchange for a worthless piece of paper. The "industry" if such a scam is worthy of the word, is self regulated and employes an army of people whos full time job it is to deny your claim. They are paid with your money
#2 Underwriters make the rules. There are no appeals, no process for disputes and all decisions are final.
#3 The purpose of all "clauses" os to eliminate risk from the policies based on statistics garnered by very well paid MBA's that carefully tweak the limits for such irrelevant things like how much wood you burn in a given period of time to put the statistical liklyhood of a claim in the <5% category.
#4 The lies they tell you to sell this "product" (if invisible promises that evaporate when you need to call on them can be called a product) and the marketing nonsense they spend hundreds of millions (of your money) per year, are all totally "legal" and designed to mislead, misrepresent and distract you from the realities of all this
#5 You will be REQUIRED to purchase this artificial product by any lender becasue in the event of a real catastrophe, the insurance industry will claim they cannot pay, a disaster will be declared and your tax money will be used to pay some pittance for your destroyed property
#6 Insurance "accounting" would be called cooking the books in any other line of business. The money they take in premiums is taxable as profit over and above their operating costs, so instead of paying hundreds of millions of dollars in taxs like you or I, they lobbied to be allowed to put most of this profit into a "reserve" This is just a giant fund that is supposed to be there in case of disasters right? wrong. This is an investment pool and guess what, all the profits made by that re-investment are tax freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. yup
#7 Your zip code has absolutly nothing to do with figuring out which areas are higher risk. It is used to determine what you can likely pay. Premiums are adjusted based on ability to pay NOT claims.
#8 The guys selling this bogus snake oil can promise you the moon, blatently lie and vanish into thin air. All perfectly legal because we can all rest easy that there is a commisioner that will guarantee all insurers.
#9 Since we al have to play this game, you will eventually learn that is is rigged in every way it posibly can be to guarantee a river of free money for old rope and the only way to deal with it is get bare bones, lie and take responsability for your stuff and act accordingly.

Snake Farm is not a bad choice. I use them for auto. I have paid less than $1000 for the last ten years of auto insurance. I could have driven that vehicle off a cliff twice over and still come out ahead. For all the "what if you run over 20 school kids" fear mongers, do you really think your insurance is going to stand behind you in anythign other than a fender bender hahahahaha.. oh and there is a $25k limit to all auto claims.

These people dont care about you, your house, your baby or your life. They just want to con you out of your money and have legalized the extortion. I suggest you begin to act accordingly.
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You obviously have never had a major loss that resulted in making a claim. I suspect you will change your tune the first time you havea house fire without insurance.

I see a trend in all your posts Mike. I think you need to grow up a bit yet.

To the OP: I agree you got a raw deal. I'll add Amica to the list of good companies that should not have a problem with the stove. When I got my policy they didn't even ask to see our fire inspection certificate for the stove install (and they did have an adjuster come look over the house but that was because of the age).
 
MikeThePipe said:
Well you just got a lesson in the quicksands laughingly called insurance. There are a few more you would do well to avoid.

Snake Farm is not a bad choice. I use them for auto. I have paid less than $1000 for the last ten years of auto insurance. I could have driven that vehicle off a cliff twice over and still come out ahead. For all the "what if you run over 20 school kids" fear mongers, do you really think your insurance is going to stand behind you in anythign other than a fender bender hahahahaha.. oh and there is a $25k limit to all auto claims.

These people dont care about you, your house, your baby or your life. They just want to con you out of your money and have legalized the extortion. I suggest you begin to act accordingly.
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Don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel..

My BIL was in a horrific wreck 3 years ago. So far the medical bills are at 1.2 MILLION dollars. Insurance has covered every penny after his deductable and catastrophic cap.

Three years ago a drunk plowed my Expedition AND Airstream while on the interstate, total claim was over $74k. Insurance paid every penny except $500 deductable. Got new truck and new trailer.

Last 90 days I had over $40k worth medical bills. I am out $3300, insurance got the rest, and will get it all from here until Oct 1st, when it re-sets. (hopefully we won't be generating anymore though)

Soon as you have some experience in the real world, get back with us on insurance needs and scams.
 
This is why you need a local independent agent. Not a call center.
Find one that handles a few different companies, you might even be able to save a buck.
 
Insurance companies hire sales people, a few clerks and attorneys to deny, frustrate coverage. Every time I have had to deal with insurance companies and I get a pay-off I basically feel like I won the lottery. Well, maybe not that extreme, but relieved. On my autos I have the highest deductible because I know I can't afford to use it unless it is a major claim. Health insurance is the worst. My daughter, with a "good", well certainly expensive, health policy just had a baby. It was a difficult pregnancy (both Mom and baby are fine;), but to date, and the bills are still rolling in 3.5 mos later, it has cost them $40k. Fighting with an insurance company is like rolling in the mud with a pig. The longer you do it the more you realize the pig is having fun.

In my personal and business insurance needs I have found good local agents and tell them that I expect them to work for me. I've been fortunate in that regard. When I moved west this summer I told my agent I wished he could come with me.

I am sorry for your difficulties, but you need someone on your side
 
I've got Costco Ameriprise. They gave me alot of grief about the heatilator fire place that was in my home when we bought (wanting to know the UL on it and the Vermont Castings Gas Log set UL). I told them it would never get used. They also didn't want to insure me due to my underground propane tank too. I replaced the heatilator 4 years ago with a kozyheat z42, but never called them. I figured I was replacing a fireplace with a fireplace. Has a UL # and I got a permit on it, it was professionally installed and it was inspected. We have it cleaned and serviced annually. I burn more than 4 cords a year. I guess I better let them know and I should shop around for a new insurance company.
 
Y'all might be misunderstanding why the distinction of wood as the "primary heat source" is of concern to a property and casualty insurer. It is not, as you might think, primarily due to a potential fire hazard. (Think about it...is the fire risk any greater between burning 3 cords vs. 2, or even 1?) Water cause much more damage to homes in the U.S. each year than fire. The #1 cause of water damage losses is frozen pipes. If you tell a carrier that your wood heat is "primary", you're telling them if your fire goes out, your pipes freeze. Any heat source that does not automatically turn on under thermostatic control is a risk. The correct answer, no mater how much you burn is: Supplemental (to a gas, electric or oil furnace) .
 
Just call them up and explain that you weren't educated about cords and thought you burned three cords a year but it's actually three face-cords which is really One cord, so you'd like them to go ahead and cover you.

Or get an insurance company that doesn't suck.
 
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Dill said:
This is why you need a local independent agent. Not a call center.
Find one that handles a few different companies, you might even be able to save a buck.
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BINGO!

We try to stick with a local agent. They work with various companies and are not afraid to change companies if it is in the homeowner's favor. Same for car insurance.

I fondly recall when we started with this agent they did ask us to make a minor change; we did and all was well. The agent did come out for pictures. Last summer we did a remodel and a small addition. I sent pictures and all was well.
 
That makes me thankful that our insurance agent is the guy who showed us the Pacific Energy stove in his home when we were trying to decide which stove to buy. They are friends from church and have grandchildren around the same ages of our girls. I'm pretty sure our rates did not go up after we installed our stoves. We just had to send photos of the final installation.
 
Backwoods Savage said:
Dill said:
This is why you need a local independent agent. Not a call center.
Find one that handles a few different companies, you might even be able to save a buck.
Click to expand...

BINGO!

We try to stick with a local agent. They work with various companies and are not afraid to change companies if it is in the homeowner's favor. Same for car insurance.

I fondly recall when we started with this agent they did ask us to make a minor change; we did and all was well. The agent did come out for pictures. Last summer we did a remodel and a small addition. I sent pictures and all was well.
Click to expand...

Yup we have had the same independent agent for decades for both home and auto.. Tried one time with the online and and didn't like it and went back... Turns out the online "deal" agent was close to an hour away.. No bargain in my opinion!

Ray
 
If they feel your situation is too risky to insure, that is their right. However, they should not tell you that you are good to go if they haven't done their homework. Unprofessional on the salesman's part. He inconvenienced you completely and deserves what he gets during your conversation.
 
ploughboy said:
Y'all might be misunderstanding why the distinction of wood as the "primary heat source" is of concern to a property and casualty insurer. It is not, as you might think, primarily due to a potential fire hazard. (Think about it...is the fire risk any greater between burning 3 cords vs. 2, or even 1?) Water cause much more damage to homes in the U.S. each year than fire. The #1 cause of water damage losses is frozen pipes. If you tell a carrier that your wood heat is "primary", you're telling them if your fire goes out, your pipes freeze. Any heat source that does not automatically turn on under thermostatic control is a risk. The correct answer, no mater how much you burn is: Supplemental (to a gas, electric or oil furnace) .
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That makes no sense to me. Why would the adjuster be so concerned what the primary was after a fire?

As for greater risk with more wood burned, is there a greater risk of getting pregnant if you have sex more often? More risk of lung cancer if you smoke 3 packs a day?

As for risk of freeze damage, when the power goes out, my neighbors are freezing with no heat while I sit by my nice warm fire.
 
Most state's standard homeowner's policies don't allow wood heat for the for the primary heat source. And the water damage from frozen pipes and water heaters is the reason.

If they knew my heat pump quit over ten years ago Allstate would cancel me. Which would get me off my butt, not to fix the heat pump but to write the check to pay-off the mortgage.
 
ploughboy said:
Y'all might be misunderstanding why the distinction of wood as the "primary heat source" is of concern to a property and casualty insurer. It is not, as you might think, primarily due to a potential fire hazard. (Think about it...is the fire risk any greater between burning 3 cords vs. 2, or even 1?) Water cause much more damage to homes in the U.S. each year than fire. The #1 cause of water damage losses is frozen pipes. If you tell a carrier that your wood heat is "primary", you're telling them if your fire goes out, your pipes freeze. Any heat source that does not automatically turn on under thermostatic control is a risk. The correct answer, no mater how much you burn is: Supplemental (to a gas, electric or oil furnace) .
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I wouldn't even call my insurance if I let that happen. Too many people call their insurance everytime something goes wrong in the home and I'm not sure its really intended for that. If its my fault I just fix and move on.
 
That is one of the bigger issues. The fire hazard issue is secondary. One of the biggest claims isn't fire its water damage.
 
wkpoor said:
ploughboy said:
Y'all might be misunderstanding why the distinction of wood as the "primary heat source" is of concern to a property and casualty insurer. It is not, as you might think, primarily due to a potential fire hazard. (Think about it...is the fire risk any greater between burning 3 cords vs. 2, or even 1?) Water cause much more damage to homes in the U.S. each year than fire. The #1 cause of water damage losses is frozen pipes. If you tell a carrier that your wood heat is "primary", you're telling them if your fire goes out, your pipes freeze. Any heat source that does not automatically turn on under thermostatic control is a risk. The correct answer, no mater how much you burn is: Supplemental (to a gas, electric or oil furnace) .
Click to expand...
I wouldn't even call my insurance if I let that happen. Too many people call their insurance everytime something goes wrong in the home and I'm not sure its really intended for that. If its my fault I just fix and move on.
Click to expand...

Same here. If it costs me less than 1 or 2 grand to fix, I pay out of pocket.
Just like the rising cost of health insurance, the more people use it for small things, like colds, the more it costs the rest of us.
It amazes me what some people will turn in as a claim. I have a friend who treats his homeowners insurance like a flexible spending account.
 
Thanks for all the advice folks. Here is an update to my situation:
1. Called the general # that was provided in the email to find out my "options".
2. My "option" (not plural) is a 3rd party insurer, which I will have no part of.
3. The stranger on the phone agreed that this was a messed up deal, and I spared him the tongue lashing.
4. The emailer, a real person, who was dishing out the one-liner responses, got a verbal slap in the face for being so lazy.
5. I then called my "agent" (who signed me up, and had no clue of the cancellation situation)
6. I let him know, in no uncertain words, that I was a bit miffed that he was my agent, and had no idea what was going on.
7. Despite giving him numerous details about the stove during the initial sign-up, I quickly learned that he thinks a "woodstove insert" is an entirely different animal than a "freestanding wood stove"
8. He thinks that a freestanding woodburning stove is something "rustic" that you might see in "an old cabin"
9. Despite numerous explanations from myself, including "I could put legs on my insert stove and it would be a freestanding wood stove", he was still having trouble.
10. I had to send him a picture of my stove via email, which he then understood.
11. I still don't know what the heck he was thinking about when I said "woodburning stove insert"
12. After seeing the picture, he said "Oh, I didn't know it wasn't a masonry fireplace. We have no policies against wood usage amount in masonry fireplaces".
13. He says he is going to talk to the underwriters on Monday and see if he can get this to go thru.
14. He fully accepts responsibility and is sincerely sorry.
15. He then notes that even if it does go thru, they require a yearly professional sweeping.
16. I then point out that the money saved from cheaper insurance rates, will be negligible after paying for a "professional" sweep every year.
17. Side note: I confirmed that forced air natural gas is listed as our primary heat source.

So, I don't think this is going to work out in the end, which is actually a blessing in disguise. Seems like Ameriprise is crap as far as woodburners are concerned.

I also told my tale of woe at work today, and my boss turned me on to a local company that will bid out my insurance needs to several "name-brand" insurance companies. They find me the best deal, with no money out of my pocket since they get a commission from the insurer. And if I have a claim, they become my local agent. Seems like a good deal, and I will investigate that option more, after I hear back from Ameri-Screw on Monday.

Thanks again for all the advice. I generally don't like insurance companies and the like, but several posters here have certainly brought some realism back to the table regarding this necessary evil. I've for the most part lived a pretty blessed life, but that can all change overnight, and I'd hate to lose my home or not be able to provide for my family if something happened to me.
 
Try Pemco or Mutual of Enumclaw. Good local companies with a solid reputation. Pemco has saved us a lot of money and they were really easy to work with.
 
Had one claim in 40 years with Allstate. The chick at the front desk tried to talk me into paying for it myself so my rates wouldn't go up. Knowing that the agent gets a bonus at year end based on how few claims are paid I told her "I paid for insurance. Fix it. Wanna raise my rates. Go ahead make my day. It sure won't make yours.".

They paid it and sent me a $25 check the next quarter for being such a good customer. And the rate didn't go up. Or down for that matter.

Don't fall for the bullshit.
 
Insurers are under a great deal of pressure right now, the last couple years have seen a lot of claims from various weather related issues across the country, besides that insurers invest the payments they get and returns are down as well. I expect some insurers may have some extreme difficulties this coming year.

Also, I have noticed that some underwriting departments have gotten stupid about their practices. I have a clay tile roof that was removed and installed between 1992-95. My insurer wanted to increase my premium by $100 per year because the roof was '25 years old' and approaching the end of its useful life. I tried to explain tile / slate roof materials to them but they couldn't seem to comprehend the issue of longevity, they were stuck on the fact that it had been 25 years since it was reinstalled.

My guess is that they suffered a lot of claims that they didn't anticipate due to hurricane etc and they were trying to pad their income to offset their losses from poor underwriting standards elsewhere. Unfortunately they lost a client in the process...besides they were awful to deal with and they never did respond to the letter I sent regarding the tile roof issue. I had to call four times to finally get an answer to the issue.

Unfortunately I don't see the situation improving in the near future, so if you have a good insurer who doesn't complain about a wood stove / insert hang on to them.

steve
 
Personal view . . . I would find another company . . . if the company is giving you this much grief already I cannot imagine what they would do should you ever need to file a claim.

Travlers Insurance in my case . . . no change in rates or policy . . . no local agent, but every time I call them I talk to a real person within seconds. Only had some claims on vehicles which were paid with no issues.
 
Thanks for the continued advice. As expected, my "agent" got back to me today and said there was nothing he could do. I tongue lashed him a bit, for not knowing his product inside and out, not knowing what a "woodstove insert" is, and ultimately for the headache of leading me down a dead end road and cancelling my existing policy. All that venting aside, wished a Happy Holidays to him and his family. Everybody makes mistakes I suppose, and I don't think it was at all malicious. Well..... Back to the insurance game for me I guess.
 
State farm has been good to me, especially with the multiwhatever discounts. They didn't care one bit about the Woodstove.
 
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