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1402 Insert Smoked Glass?

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by hunterpa64, Jan 24, 2010.

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  1. hunterpa64

    hunterpa64 New Member

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    Just put in a 1402 insert and I am having trouble trying to keep the glass clean. Get's heavy black on the sides, the middle stays fairly OK. I have a good draft, no smoke spilling back into the room. Any suggestions? Also, anyone who has a 1402 and wants to give me some pointers would be appreciated. Burn temps? Location of thermometer? Grate or no grate? How much wood do you load and what size at what temp?

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  2. Backwoods Savage

    Backwoods Savage Minister of Fire

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    Welcome to the forum hunter.

    This sounds like the classic case of a new wood burner. It happens to most folks and it amounts to a problem with the fuel. Bad fuel will make the glass turn black. That is, not properly seasoned wood. Even if you buy supposed seasoned wood, or especially then, you will find that the wood is really not ready to be burned yet.

    Time is wood's best friend. Time to sit out in the sun and wind to dry out all that tree sap. How much time? That varies depending upon what type of wood you are burning. Some can be ready in 6 months to a year but most need a year and up to three years (for red oak).

    I like to relate this to your car, truck or tractor. What happens to those motors if you buy bad fuel and burn it in the engine? The danged thing just won't run right and you have loss of power. That very same thing happens with a wood stove. Poor fuel = poor burning characteristics. Good fuel = good burning stove with lots of heat.


    Also, because you are a new wood burner please bear in mind it is good to check the chimney monthly in your first couple of years; especially if you have dirty glass. Imagine what the chimney looks like?

    Good luck.
  3. firefighterjake

    firefighterjake Minister of Fire

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    Generally I've found that the glass blackens from one of four things.

    1) A split or round rests up against the glass and the area of the glass where the split/round was rested is black. Solution: Be aware of how you are stacking your wood so that wood will not roll up against the glass . . . or at least be less likely to do so.

    2) The woodstove is not getting hot enough. Solution: Many folks think that their stove looks hot because of all of the flames, but have no idea of how hot the stove actually is and may not be running it hot enough to have a good secondary combustion . . . get a thermometer for the stove top and run the stove at the proper operating temps.

    3) The fire is choked off too early in the burning process by the user turning down the air too much, too early. Solution: Once again a stove top thermometer is useful in knowing when the air should be turned down . . . eventually you will learn to know when you can do so by watching the fire. Turn down the air a little bit at a time . . . 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 shut . . . waiting 5-10 minutes each time you turn down the air. If the secondary combustion is maintained, all is good. If the secondary combustion splutters out and/or the fire dies out . . . open the air back up, let it run longer and repeat. You may or may not be able to turn the air all the way down . . . a lot depends on your individual set up.

    4) The wood is not seasoned and is green. Solution: Burn seasoned wood . . . of course this is easier said than done at this point in the year. There are many threads on what you can do (i.e. burning pallets, burning processed woodproducts such as Enviblocks, Biobricks, etc.), opening up the air more, splitting the wood smaller, etc.


    Honestly, sometimes the black is a combination of the four factors listed above . . . but typically for the first year user the most common issue is unseasoned or semi-seasoned wood being burned in the stove.
  4. ControlFreak

    ControlFreak Feeling the Heat

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    Put the thermometer right in the middle on the top.

    The 1402 is happy running 550-650 degrees. When it's up at that temp you should see very nice clean secondary combustion that continues when the draft is fully closed. That's assuming that you're runnning the blowers. If you're not running the blowers then the temp would be higher than that, but I wouldn't know how much because I always have the blowers running.

    Sometimes when you're up to temp, if you close the draft down rapidly, you'll lose the flames from the bottom of the wood and only have flames at the top of the firebox. Under this condition, the lower half of the glass will cloud up. I think this is normal. As the fire burns a little longer (10-20 minutes), the flames will work their way back down and the glass will eventually clear up again. If you lose the flame entirely, then reopen the draft fully and close down after it gets a little hotter.
  5. hunterpa64

    hunterpa64 New Member

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    Thanks guys, I hate to ask a million questions, but its like trying to reinvent the wheel. There seems to be so much experience here. Ok so here's a few things I can add to the replys,.

    I did figure out that using oven cleaner on the glass and not wiping it off clean and letting itdry 100% before firing was part of the problem, I think. We'll see, I cleaned it tis morning and didn't burn it all day. Fired a small flash type fire tonite and looked better. Was up at around 400 F with my thermometer located centered on the stove midway between the fron and the back of the stove exposed top. Last night had it at about 550 F, kinda got gun shy tonite. When my stove was in the cooling down phase, around 400 F, heard a ping. 1st thing I thought from reading anoter thread was a weld popped? talked to my installer who says he has had similar problems with the installation I have. The metal liner that is in the original fireplace he says will sometimes make some ungodly noises. He asked if I saw any smoke in the room, which I didn't. He didn't seem concerned and said that since the liner is in a top sealed masonary chimney there would smoke coming in my room if something did crack?

    The other thing I saw was what looked like tiny particles of hard concrete or furnace cement maybe? I know he put some around the clamped connection to the flue as an added precaution. Wondering if it wasn't quite cured and the heat cracked some? Any ideas?

    I have wood that I cut in October. It was standing dead, no bark, I think maybe elm or a nut tree of some type. There's a buck of them where I hunt. They kinda look like big old telephone poles. I thought sinethey were dead that they would be ready to burn pretty quickly, hence theOctober cut / spilit and December burn. I also bougt "supposed" seasoned wood from a local. He claims it was stacked inside for 3 - 7 years, but I'm having my doubts. It's weighty and the bark is still tight. No big cracks on the ends. Looks 1/2 decent. Some kind of oak. It was split, but in huge pieces I had to cut and split it down smaller, must have been sized for an outside burner?

    So when you guys talk about splits, medium and large just what sizes are we speaking of?

    The owners manual says to put a trench in your ashes. Which way does the trench go? North south or east west?

    It also says to slide the baffles to the back and intelock? I slid them all the way back and then together as tight as I could over the secondary air tube but couldn't feel any locking? Am I ok or missing something?

    Bet you guys dread us newbies asking a gazillion questions, but thanks for your guidance. The refreshments are on me should we cross trails, happy hunting!
  6. firefighterjake

    firefighterjake Minister of Fire

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  7. firefighterjake

    firefighterjake Minister of Fire

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    I have a hankering for a Philadelphia cheese steak. ;) :)
  8. KB007

    KB007 Feeling the Heat

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    The baffles are probably the same I have on the 1450 and they don't really "lock" - just keep them slid to the back and check each time you load, they tend to creep forward sometimes when you nudge them with a split when loading.
  9. moterhead3

    moterhead3 New Member

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    Mine likes 3 to 5 inch splits when its cold out, smaller ones when its warmer out. At 250-300 degrees I push my damper all the way in, then it will peak from 350 to 700 depending how much wood I put in. The baffles just sit on top of the fire bricks. The glass gets a little soot on the sides or if a split is to close in the middle but a good hot burn usually cleans the middle. Wet wood and a cool burn will soot it up. I use some windex and ash on heavy soot. I've never got more than a small coffee cans worth of soot out of my lined flue after a few months of burning. Good luck with your stove, I've had my 1402 3 yrs now and its been great. By the way a Chester or Claymont cheese steak is better than a Philly cheese steak any day.
  10. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    HAHAHA, You best go direct to the source.
    Even 40 miles away, they think they know what a Philly Cheese Steak is, but they don't.
    There are a few places further out that do actually know what a real cheese steak is. I found 2 places up here so far. Actually 3, but one closed down, cause they were ungodly expensive.
  11. Joey

    Joey Feeling the Heat

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    Yes, the stove makes some ungodly noises while its heating up. I always here some loud pings when its gettin good and hot. I kinda think of it as a reminder to check the stove quicker than usual. The trench is N/S,,,just make a little gully for the air to flow under the wood. Dont be afraid to get the stove nice and hot. I have two thermometers, side by side directly in the center of the stove. They are usually pretty close in temp.. I have never had a problem with dirty glass. I have a super strong draft on a 35 ft. chimney. The glass seems to take care of itself. When I let the stove cool off, I just wipe the glass with a damp paper towel, and it looks brand new. I think you are choking the fire out by shutting the air to early. I let it get nice and hot, then choke it down slowly in a few stages. Its just a learnin curve and in about a month or so...you will have it mastered. As everyone else will tell you, nothing substitutes for superior fuel. Napoleon has always answered any of my questions and I have great dealer support in my area. Good luck.
  12. hunterpa64

    hunterpa64 New Member

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    I was actually thinking of a liquid refreshment, no Philly Chees Steaks here I'm a western Pa boy. Might be able to hook you up with some of Mrs venison stew though?

    I agree with the last post. I most likely am choking it off too soon, but I keep thinking what if I get her going hot, damper down, and she keeps climbing? I have a 15 Ft lined / blanketed flue inside a slightly larger masonary chimney. It draws plenty good I think. Even when I close my damper full she still keeps a full firebox full of flames. I haven't even filled it up yet. My last load a few hrs ago was onto a current hot coal bed that just quit flaming, I was around 300 F at loading. I through in 3 pieces of "supposed seasoned oak" about 6" x 3", they were kinda just sitting there so Mrs said through in a few splits. I put 3 on top of the oak the opposite way, about 2 x 4 size and away we went. Closed damper full at 400 F and went to 575 F. I guess seeing all that fire in the box kinda makes me squirm, I'm just not used to so many flames. My old stove was a little VC and we never saw it burn like this. Of course it didn't have that secondary air tube down the center. So is that how it should look? Like a monster ball of flames? What do you guys do if she gets going and goes past 600 F or more? That last burn was with 6 pieces of wood, I can't see how I could load much more and not ring the bell on my thermometer?

    Another question for a 2nd bowl of stew to the 1st responder. I am seeing what looks like some real shiny creosote on the face of the stove between the door hinges and thebox, inside of the gasket. Is this a sign of an air leak? Spoke with a tech at Nap through my installer, (which sucks in my opinion that I can't go direct with a technical question), and he said as long as I see an imprint of the rope on the stove it sealing. I also tried the $ test and it feels snug. The only place I see this is along that left side about 3/4" wide the whole way up and down. I also seem to get my most build up on my glass in that lower left corner. Is it possible that the door is warped or a window gasket was bad from manufacture?
  13. moterhead3

    moterhead3 New Member

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    You can put a dollar bill between the stove and the gasket (when its cool) It should hold the bill when you try to pull it out. I had a problem with my door gasket when it was new. The gasket at the bottom had a 1/4 inch gap. I couldn't control the temp, it would just take off. I used some high temp permatex in the gap, pulled some gasket from both sides, put aluminum foil on it and closed the door untill it dried then pull it off. Fixed mine.
  14. moterhead3

    moterhead3 New Member

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    By the way, steel makes noise as it expands and contracts. I work in a refinery, you should here those big units when they heat up. I've had my stove over 900 deg a couple times and it didn't hurt it. As long as the stove has room to expand, the noises should calm down.
  15. hunterpa64

    hunterpa64 New Member

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    Motorhead3, I see your in bethel Twp. Would that be Armstrong Co? I'm right next door if so in northern Westmoreland.

    I ran it up to 550 F before bed last night, then after there was nothing but coals opened my damper just alittle. When I woke up at 5 it was pretty well cooled down of course and I had just alittle tan / brown smoke on the bottom corners of the glass. I'd say maybe 2" x 2". Seemed better than when I choked it off completely before? Is this more reasonable as to what I should see? It's not really reasonable to see a 100% clean glass when your burning down to nothing is it? I just don't want to mess up my chimney. I used to burn alot cooler in my old stove and cleaned once a month, NEVER had a problem with creosote there. It was a stainless straight flue about 10 Ft. I don't mind alittle creosote as long as I can brush it, but I don't ever want to deal with that glaze. I guess I'm off the opinion if choking it down is gonna cause me problems, I'll opt to sacrifice a long burn for a clean chimney.

    How soon would be reasonable to check the flue for the 1st time to catch any severe creosoting problem before it would be too late to easily clean it witout major maintenance? I don't want to be up there constantly, but I certainly don't want to have to try and undo something that can be caught and corrected early. I think the wood I bought isn't quite all the seller claimed it was. If I split it down smaller and burn it think I'll be ok? I mean it's not fresh cut, but I think it could have alittle more age to be optimum.

    You said about the $ bill. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to even pull it out cold with the door closed? I can pull it out but it's not like there's no resistance. Not a white knucle have to pull but defintely not loose.
  16. Squiner

    Squiner New Member

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    Glad to hear you were alright at 900. I've been up to 775 with my 1402 and was a bit worried.

    To the OP, get'er up to around 600 and with secondaries going and you wont have a dirty glass problem for the most part. Although, I still get dirty glass at the bottom corners.
  17. ControlFreak

    ControlFreak Feeling the Heat

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    hunterpa64,

    Your quote:
    "Closed damper full at 400 F and went to 575 F. I guess seeing all that fire in the box kinda makes me squirm, I’m just not used to so many flames. My old stove was a little VC and we never saw it burn like this. Of course it didn’t have that secondary air tube down the center. So is that how it should look? Like a monster ball of flames? What do you guys do if she gets going and goes past 600 F or more?"

    " Like a monster ball of flames?" YES!!!!!! You are in the zone!!! When your stove is up to temp and burning right, it will look like a nuclear reactor in there. The radiant heat coming from the glass will be enough to toast a slice of bread if you have a way to hold it an inch from the glass.

    Starting to close off at 400 is perfect, and you should expect it to continue to climb up as high as 650 where it will tend to stabilize. If you're closed off and it climbs above 650, don't get excited, just make sure its closed off and let it go. If you get to 800 with the draft fully closed, then you probably have a bit more draft than you need. You can also try starting to close down at a bit lower temp. I saw someone say that you should start closing down 250-350. If you do this, most likely you're going to put out the flame and the combustion will be unstable.

    Oh, btw: You should never need to use anything more than common glass cleaner to clean up the glass. If it's smoked up, burn it a little hotter next time and let the fire clean up the glass for you. If you have to resort to using abrasive ashes to clean the glass, then you're not burning hot enough. Also remember: DO NOT USE ANY AMMONIA-BASED CLEANERS. After a season of cleaning your glass with this, you'll start to see a haze developing on the glass that you'll never get off. Just make sure your glass cleaner is ammonia-free. A few cleaners will use vinegar. That's OK too, though I don't care for the odor of vinegar.

    Dan
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