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Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by semipro, Mar 1, 2009.
holly crap i just last week updatet to the mansfield...seems i have missed the free hand back...
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Never drank Crown in Dakota. Think I`d use a lot less ice up there! Might even taste better up there?
so does all this apply to wood inserts as well?
The Clydesdale and the Morgan in the above list are inserts.
So HS has already submitted their stoves for testing and passed with 75%+??? Wow, that was lightning fast! I'd like to see the certification because this "official list" sounds premature based on what I'm hearing from everyone else in the industry. My guess is this is another case of putting the cart in front of the horse...
EDIT: I just checked their website and see nothing regarding them achieving their certification. I would think they would have this plastered all over their home page if they passed this testing since nobody else has yet.
how about this one
got my final inspection in feb09
checked - quad 5700 steptop @ 76%
stove was actually purchased a couple years back
would have to look to be sure
what do ya think ?
i guess that HPBA site says it pretty plain
for stoves purchased after 01jan09.............
ok can someone tell me why the hearthstone mansfield at 76%is not listed for the credit,its rating is higher than some of the other hearthstones...
I don't know why on the mansfield. The Hearthstone company is hiring for a tech position to support their line of PELLET stoves. Sheesh.
I still can't understand why ANY of the Hearthstone wood stoves are stated as qualifying for this credit. To the best of my knowledge, not a single one has passed (or has even gone through) the certified testing process. I'd be pretty pissed if I bought one of these stoves because my dealer told me they qualified and later found out it didn't!
The tax code says "placed in service in 2009". Personally I would do it. The tax courts have defined "placed in service" as "available for use" and I don't know how a stove is available for use if it isn't signed off on the final inspection.
It could go either way in an audit and those are the ones I always take.
As always, consult your tax advisor. Internet tax advise is worth every penny you paid for it.
One thing that may be appropriate to point out, is that the 75% efficiency value was revised to
be referenced to the "lower heating value." Formerly it hadn't been specified and may have been
in reference to the 'higher heating value.'
The higher heating value (HHV) includes the heat of vaporization of the water produced by the wood
combustion, and I would expect that the stove efficiencies normally cited are based on the proportion of heat
collected of the total (higher) heating value. The lower heating value (LHV) is the amount of heat generated
by wood combustion excluding the heat of vaporization of the water produced during combustion.
Woodstoves can't safely operate at exhaust temperatures low enough to be able collect a portion of the heat
from the water vapor, as say a modern natural gas furnace which is of a 'condensing' design. They (high
efficiency natural gas furnaces) are able to cool the exhaust down to the point where much of the water
vapor is condensed and thus collect a large portion of this total heat from the gas combustion.
The fact that they added the term 'lower heating value' in describing the 75% efficiency, may have opened
it up to quite a few more wood stoves (as opposed to mainly pellet stoves or perhaps a few of the
catalytic designs with the original language from the earlier legislation).
That said, until or unless the vendor of your particular stove provides a certification that it is eligible
in accordance with the IRS standards, you're on your own if the stove you purchase in this or next year
and turns out to not be considered eligible. I've not heard that the IRS guidance has formally come out yet.
I've been planning to replace an older (80's) VC Resolute with a newer stove (perhaps VC), but will be making a
decision based on which designs (e.g. cat or non-cat) are eligible for the credit. With the efficiency language
being based on LHV, the non-cat designs may well be eligible, but I'm going to be waiting for formal certification
by VC (or other mfr.'s).
I'm personally comfortable with the catalytic designs (I've owned two of them), and may still be inclined to stay
with this style, due to the lower emissions and higher efficiencies (though they have higher operating costs due
to the catalyst).
From a recent article in Market Watch:
"Manufacturers are hurrying to figure out which products will earn credits under the government's rules, which means testing them for various standards of energy efficiency. The shakeout could have significant impact on future product lineups. "We have one wood stove that apparently doesn't qualify, and it's our third best-selling stove," says Dave Kuhfahl, president of HearthStone Quality Home Heating Products Inc. "We're wondering if it will ever sell again."
And from Leslie Wheeler, director of communications for the HPBA in Bio Mass magazine:
“(However), some manufacturers and some retailers out there are jumping the gun,” he continued, “and that is the real danger, because we don't know what that testing is going to be."
Which stove do you think this is?
Well lets see here. The Mansfield wasn't on the list at the top of this thread soooo....
I kinda hope it is the Mansfield. I would love to pick one of those big rocks up cheap because everybody quit buying them. :coolgrin: A gorgeous one has been sitting on the local stove shop floor for two years now.
I still don't understand why Woodstock is out there essentially saying they know what the exact government requirements are and their official tests are already scheduled for next month - while it seems like everyone else in the industry is more like "we still don't have any clue what the requirements will be"? Does woodstock have some "inside" info that no one else has, or are they completely full of it?
Methinks that it falls into the old saying, "It ain't bragging if you can back it up." I know nothing about the EPA testing or Woodstock's inside info (or lack of), but suspect their expected passing of the tests falls into the substance of the quote. They just seem very confident with their product. Heck, are there any other stove companies who would allow you to use a product for 6 months and return it if you aren't satisfied? For that matter, are there any companies, period, who have that kind of confidence in their product?
This link should help some: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c5
From the standards for Biomass stoves, I do not know what ".... lower heating value." means.
Also, I read somewhere on this same site, I think, that labor to install the stove is creditable. There is no mention of the cost of hearth, stovepipe or chimney figuring into the tax credit program. Because these things are necessary for the stove to meet code requirements it seems to me that they should also be eligible for the tax credit.
It seems the IRS and the manufacturers are still trying to get all this sorted out. I can't understand why the IRS cannot use "...any biomass stove meeting EPA Phase II requirements..." as the standard.
I just spent a month and a lot of money building an elevated hearth. It has an "R" value of about .95. I will not now tear it apart so I can purchase a qualifying stove requiring an "R" value of 1 or better. I just might be stuck with a great stove and no tax credit. We'll see what happens!
I picked up a new Homestead just yesterday. My local dealer said she had just recieved an email or fax from Hearthstone saying they were sure that stove would pass certification.. To me, it's nice but I needed a stove, she wanted that one, it seems like a nice, solid stove, so I am all good..
if come tax season next spring I can take some percentage of the cost of stove and such from my taxes, bonus.
You better read the fine print that manufacturers are using in promoting their products will qualify for the Biomass credt.
To date there are NO wood or pellet appliances approved to recieve the BioMass Tax Credit.
The IRS has a recommended efficiency testing standard proposed to them from the Hearth Products Association - of which all hearth manufacturer's belong. This standard has not yet been accepted. What happens to all those manufacturer's who claim their products meet the standard, and then the IRS changes the standard in its final requirement. You are just out of luck based on these manufacturer's small print. Ask your hearth store for a signed letter that they will personally guarantee the stove meets this requirement and will personally pay you the tax credit if said manufacturer's products suddenly do not meet this standard. See how far you get then.
Methinks the natives will be bringing their firewood to the IRS's door.
One thing is for sure, the woodstock company is letting it all hang out and doing everything they can to win those customers that can be won by the tax credit carrot. I have not seen any other manufacturer advertizing as aggressively. In the abscence of other folks claiming to have earned the tax credit they seem to be the only one that does.
Looks like the mansfield will need a redesign to meet the spec. Maybe they can pull it off within the next couple years of the credit. Maybe stuff a cat in it.
I looked at the Mansfield and the Equinox(not at the same time) the 2 stoves looked the same except the size. If the Eq was on the list, What test determined
that the mansfield is a nogo, Theirs or some outside test?