a 2013 Leaf for the woodgeeks

[Where2]

My wife and I probably easily spend around 300$ a month in gas between the two of us.

woodgeek's cost numbers are big eye opener on how much money we could be saving on gasoline.

My wife and I recognized the size of our fuel expenses in 2006 when she was putting 18k-20k/yr on a vehicle that got 17mpg (at best). When the opportunity arose to put her in something that got 46mpg, the fuel savings literally helped make the car payments. When the payments went away, the fuel savings continued... I have found other things to do with the money I was spending at the filling station when the payments ended.

 

[AK13]

I commute around 60 miles a day also but it is 90% highway driving. I usually average around 70MPH for most of my commute. What kind of MPG do you see generally see out of the Prius at those speeds ?

Scott

That is an ideal commute for a VW TDI. Which is a heck of a lot more car IMHO. If a car is a box that takes you from place to place then there is nothing wrong with a Prius. If you enjoy the experience of driving a car AND want impressive fuel mileage then go test drive a TDI. Yes, I am probably biased. Yes, I love torque.

 

[maple1]

Sorry if posted already - what's the MSRP on the Leaf?

We got our Civic new in 2006. It now has around 360,000kms on it. Gets 45mpg(CDN), has had the front brakes done once. Just have to keep it in tires & oil changes. I'd be hard pressed to not get another one when it comes time to replace this one. I would love to be able to electrically power all those 360,000 kms, but with long trips & a daily 100km commute, it's just not in the cards. And they're all over the place here for less than $10k, for a 3 or 4 year old one with less than 100k kms on them.

 

[velvetfoot]

The other thing I like about the 3rd gen prius is that it does not have a timing belt, so no need for that costly repair job.

That's what I didn't like about my TDI. Since then, my MINI had a chain and so does the current Accent. Not happy with Accent's mileage (auto-impulse buy). Will go for max. mileage next time, but need distance driver too. Was surprised that the dollars/mile, or whatever it was, for the electrics was that far off from a high mileage gasser.

 

[woodgeek]

Sorry if posted already - what's the MSRP on the Leaf?

We got the base 'S trim' 2013 leaf that is $28,800 MSRP. We got the 'charger package', which prob add $1000-1500, call it $30k. Less the $7500 fed tax rebate, it could be yours for $22,500. The low lease price I got reflects the $7500 rebate going to the dealer/Nissan.

 

[woodgeek]

Just had a realization.....we test drove the 2014 MY Leaf, and the rear cargo space was amazing....basically went to the ground. We got the 2013 MY in the color we wanted with the charger package (6kW versus 3 kW AND Chademo quickcharge port) for the same quote.

Turns out it does not have the same cargo space.....more like a conventional hatchback.

In my reading around, the 2012 MY and before had even less rear cargo, they moved the charger to the front under the hood in MY 2013+.

IOW, every year, they are moving stuff out of the rear cargo area to grow that space.

What do you think they are going to do with that extra several cu ft of space? ...I'm thinking more battery volume contiguous with the exiting battery (under rear seat)! If they want to double the range for MY 2016, they will prob need a little more volume in addition to better chemistry.

 

[Slow1]

The good folks from Nissan Leaf marketing dept stopped by my company's cafeteria today. They had a 'deal' marketed as a base 13MY for $208/mo with no initial payment required (3 year lease, 12K miles/year). Seems like a decent deal for the Leaf. The 14MY base is same deal but $227/mo.

What I'm trying hard to get a fair estimate is how much the maintenance difference is between the Leaf and say my Hyundai Accent. Oil changes are easy - I can say 3K miles/change and then put a $/change ($30-40?). So, what other things will be reduced/removed? I figure tires and wipers are going to be the same so basically a wash there... Thoughts?

 

[sloeffle]

My wife and I recognized the size of our fuel expenses in 2006 when she was putting 18k-20k/yr on a vehicle that got 17mpg (at best). When the opportunity arose to put her in something that got 46mpg, the fuel savings literally helped make the car payments. When the payments went away, the fuel savings continued... I have found other things to do with the money I was spending at the filling station when the payments ended.

Both of the vehicles we have get around 30MPG. My CR-V is AWD which is nice in the winter but uses a little more gas. I have already made my mind up that the next vehicle will need to get >40MPG highway.

That is an ideal commute for a VW TDI. Which is a heck of a lot more car IMHO. If a car is a box that takes you from place to place then there is nothing wrong with a Prius. If you enjoy the experience of driving a car AND want impressive fuel mileage then go test drive a TDI. Yes, I am probably biased. Yes, I love torque.

I owned a Volkswagen ( Rabbit Diesel ) about 20 years ago and had a lot of problems with it. But I have heard that the VW Group has come along way on addressing their quality issues. It will be on my list for sure.

We just sold a Corolla with 187k and never touched a thing on it. That car spoiled us with its reliability.

 

[woodgeek]

The good folks from Nissan Leaf marketing dept stopped by my company's cafeteria today. They had a 'deal' marketed as a base 13MY for $208/mo with no initial payment required (3 year lease, 12K miles/year). Seems like a decent deal for the Leaf. The 14MY base is same deal but $227/mo.

What I'm trying hard to get a fair estimate is how much the maintenance difference is between the Leaf and say my Hyundai Accent. Oil changes are easy - I can say 3K miles/change and then put a $/change ($30-40?). So, what other things will be reduced/removed? I figure tires and wipers are going to be the same so basically a wash there... Thoughts?

I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference. Still sounds like a good deal.

Re maintenance...all the stuff it doesn't have, transmission, belts, muffler, etc, prob not a big issue in first 36k miles anyway. As with the Prii above, the brake wear is prob lower because of the regen braking.

I think Nissan currently has 3 years free roadside assistance, and they are talking about adding in free charging at all the existing L2 charging locations (~15000 nationwide).

 

[Slow1]

I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference. Still sounds like a good deal.

Re maintenance...all the stuff it doesn't have, transmission, belts, muffler, etc, prob not a big issue in first 36k miles anyway. As with the Prii above, the brake wear is prob lower because of the regen braking.

I think Nissan currently has 3 years free roadside assistance, and they are talking about adding in free charging at all the existing L2 charging locations (~15000 nationwide).

Good point on the 3 year timeframe on maintenance... I'm about 110K miles and 5+ years into my Hyundai so maintenance is a 'normal' thing for us, of course now that we're past 100K schedules it will be good for a while I suppose.

So, basically the oil changes, maybe less on the brakes.

I don't expect to use any away from home chargers much if at all. I do have to figure in the cost of a home charger (I don't think I'd want to charge at 110v/12a as from what I read it is actually considerably less efficient as well as just slow). Not sure about the 'chargers' in the cars - seems there are different levels, but it comes with level2 which is all I'd be using at home anyway?

 

[BrotherBart]

What happens in these high mileage electric wonders when you have to turn on the heater or the AC when driving? Has to knock a big hole in the mileage per charge. We only have two seasons, hot/humid and cold.

 

[woodgeek]

I don't expect to use any away from home chargers much if at all. I do have to figure in the cost of a home charger (I don't think I'd want to charge at 110v/12a as from what I read it is actually considerably less efficient as well as just slow). Not sure about the 'chargers' in the cars - seems there are different levels, but it comes with level2 which is all I'd be using at home anyway?

I don't plan to use much public charging either....unless they build out the L2 and L3 network along I-95 during my lease.

The onboard charger runs on 240VAC from an EVSE (the wall mount unit with the funny plug). The base 'S' model (and older models) has a ~3 kW onboard charger, requiring 8 hours to charge from 0-100% at home or any public L2 charger. The higher-end trims, or the S plus charger package has a 6 kW charger, so I can charge 0-100% in ~4 hours at home or public L2 chargers. As above, the cheapest 6 kW compatible EVSE I found runs $650 for the hardware, I did the install myself. You would need 2 open slots (for a 240 circuit) in your breaker box.

 

[woodgeek]

What happens in these high mileage electric wonders when you have to turn on the heater or the AC when driving? Has to knock a big hole in the mileage per charge. We only have two seasons, hot/humid and cold.

AC pulls down the range some (haven't used it much yet), the cabin heater a LOT. So the Leafs all come with heated seats front and rear, and heated steering wheel, standard.

Based on the Leaf forum, I expect my range to drop from 80+ miles to ~60 miles in below freezing weather (at 50 mph). This is still almost double my wife's 32 mi round-trip commute.

In the dead of winter, I can drive the Leaf to my train station, and we will still use the nominal 12k miles/year on the lease during the rest of the year.

 

[begreen]

What happens in these high mileage electric wonders when you have to turn on the heater or the AC when driving? Has to knock a big hole in the mileage per charge. We only have two seasons, hot/humid and cold.

Battery output drops noticeably in colder temps. Cold weather in general will knock down range, even without the heat on. We use the heat and heated seats and our range drops from 40 to about 26 miles in the winter. That's still within our normal driving range, so not a deal killer for us. We haven't run the AC much, but reports are that the hit is less and in the warm weather the battery is at full output. The Volt AC has two modes, ECO and Comfort. Usually one would use Comfort to cool the cabin then switch to ECO to keep it there. Folks in Texas and Florida say it works well for them and they are still seeing +40 mile electric range in 100 deg temps.

 

[CaptSpiff]

I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference. Still sounds like a good deal.

Hi WoodGeek,
I'm a bit confused about the charging system "option".
Does the Car come with an onboard charger standard, so I can use any 120V 15a outlet or extension cord?
Is this considered Level 1?
What is the typical recharge rate (kw per hour) at 120v?

Does the optional Level 2 charger live on the car or at your home?
If Level 2 is onboard, what is installed at your home?
What is the typical recharge rate at 240v (Level 2?) ?

Thanks

 

[woodgeek]

I can see how you were confused.

Many/most EVs and PHEVs come with an SAE J1722 female outlet, behind a little door, which accepts AC current from a corresponding J1722 male plug. The unit that the plug is attached to is called an Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) and it can be connected to the grid by a 120V standard plug, a 240V plug of some type, or hardwiring. These EVSEs come in different maximum power outputs, but the EV and EVSE 'talk to each other' so the car only 'takes' what the EVSE can deliver, rather than blowing a breaker if the current demand on the EV is greater than the max allowed by the EVSE.

Not unlike a cell phone....some 'chargers' will charge your phone faster than others, but they will all work.

The Leaf comes with a completely separate 'brick' with 2 cords, in a little case, with a 120V plug on one end, and a J1722 plug on the other. The max power is 1.3 kW to avoid overloading a typical 120V outlet. This is called 'Level 1', L1 and would come in handy if you were visiting grandma overnight, and she was at the limit of your one-way range (you could recharge overnight). If you never used the whole range in a day, it could be your only charger.

Folks in more of a hurry, can buy a beefer EVSE, called a Level 2, 'L2', that still has a J1722 plug, but runs on a 240V circuit. These come in different sizes, you would get the one that is big enough to feed the charger (located within the car, that turns AC into DC for the battery) at the max rate it can accept. For the Volt and older LEAFs that is 3.3 kW. For newer LEAFs, you can get a 6.6 kW charger....charges in half the time, <4 hours with a suitable L2 EVSE (versus 20 hours with the L1 brick that comes with the car).

L3 QuickChargers are actually chargers, not EVSEs. They deliver high current DC. There are 2 standards (Tesla and Chademo) , neither uses the J1722 plug, and they can charge your car in 20 minutes or so. But there are fewer than 1000 in the US. Many EVs do not have L3 capability.

 

[CaptSpiff]

OK, that's good info. So the LEAF comes with the 3.3Kw built in charger standard. But there is a 6.6Kw built in charger as an upgrade option.

Either charger will use the portable L1 EVSE cord/plug and automatically limit its draw to 1.3Kw (about 11 amps at 120v outlet). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 5 mi each hr.

Now if I had a 240v L2 EVSE cord/plug, the LEAF with a 3.3Kw charger would limit its draw to 3.3Kw (about 14amps at 240Vac). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 10 mi each hr.

And if I had a 240v L2 EVSE cord/plug, a LEAF with a 6.6Kw charger would limit its draw to 6.6Kw (about 28amps at 240Vac). This would recharge the LEAF at about 20 mi each hr.

Thanks for those talking points. I've been thinking about about promoting my employer to put in some charging stations and this helps me understand the picture better.

Looks to me like a 20 or 30 mile commute could be easily handled by even a L1 plug-in.

 

[woodgeek]

Precisely.

I would say the older Leafs were 3.3 kW standard. Now only the cheapest one, the 'S trim' has that, the other two trims have a 6.6 kW charger standard. Looking at sales figures, <20% of leafs sold in 2013 and later were the S model, and some of those (like mine) may have had the upgraded charger. Factor in higher sales in the last year, and you can figure most Leafs on the road have a 6.6 kW charger.

I figure Nissan is taking an evolutionary approach in advance of a significant increase in battery size, which has been fixed at 24 kWh since launch >3 years ago. They are making the interior space for the battery bigger, and growing the charger (the bigger 6.6 kW charger will still need 8 hours to charge a hypothetical 48 kWh pack, a 3.3 kW EVSE would take 16 hours, the L1 brick 40!). Given the high (but falling) cost of Li-ion batteries, the bigger pack would've been prohibitive in MY 2011, but will hopefully be ok for the 'Gen 2 Leaf' in MY 2016.

 

[woodgeek]

Had some friends in from the City last night, and they pointed out that Philly lets you designate an on street parking space in front of your house 'EV reserved' if you install an EVSE there....

http://www.phillylicensedelectrician.com/electric-vehicle-gets-reserved-parking/

Reading the article, you can padlock or switch the EVSE off, i.e. limit it to your personal use, so others can't use it. Other EVs could still legally park in your spot, but this is one way to get 'almost private' parking in the city.

They were talking about getting a cheap EV just for the parking.

 

[woodgeek]

I did my first long drive yesterday, 36 miles round trip into Philly, mostly highway, about half in stop and go traffic, some AC. I used '5 of 12' bars, less than half of total range. Or if you figure the last 2 bars are for reserve (they're colored red on the dash), half of my non-reserve 10 bars of range. The battery warranty is that you will have at least '9 bars' of capacity after 8 years, or 7 bars less reserve. That is still aok for a 50 mile round trip commute (in good weather).

I can def corroborate BG's lead-foot effect. I was just following traffic, and had **no idea** I was going close to 80 when passing someone at one point. Felt like, I dunno, 55 or less. No obvious power restrictions when cruising or passing. Instant linear response to accelerator is also a lot of fun (as opposed to delay for throttle up, auto tran shifting, etc).

I am sure gear heads that like sports cars would consider it a yawner (10 sec 0-60), but compared to the old family cars I am used to, its both responsive and sporty.

Not a golf cart.

 

[Slow1]

OK, that's good info. So the LEAF comes with the 3.3Kw built in charger standard. But there is a 6.6Kw built in charger as an upgrade option.

Either charger will use the portable L1 EVSE cord/plug and automatically limit its draw to 1.3Kw (about 11 amps at 120v outlet). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 5 mi each hr.

Now if I had a 240v L2 EVSE cord/plug, the LEAF with a 3.3Kw charger would limit its draw to 3.3Kw (about 14amps at 240Vac). This will recharge the LEAF at about a 10 mi each hr.

And if I had a 240v L2 EVSE cord/plug, a LEAF with a 6.6Kw charger would limit its draw to 6.6Kw (about 28amps at 240Vac). This would recharge the LEAF at about 20 mi each hr.

Thanks for those talking points. I've been thinking about about promoting my employer to put in some charging stations and this helps me understand the picture better.

Looks to me like a 20 or 30 mile commute could be easily handled by even a L1 plug-in.

I read somewhere that the charging times are not really so linear - i.e. as you go from L1 to L2 you actually get slightly more than 2x the charge time due to what is basically a 'fixed' power consumption in the charging circuit. Anyone know about this? The implication for home use being that while you COULD perhaps use the L1 as your primary charger, if you did so, you would actually draw more power to charge x miles with the L1 than you would for the L2.

 

[woodgeek]

My own (slightly limited) experience and reading of the EV forums would suggest otherwise (at least for the LEAF), or that that info is outdated.

a few tidbits:
--lots of folks just use the L1 charger exclusively without a problem. Depends on your needs.
--I think the charge is roughly 'constant current' for L1 and L2 chargers. My Efergy home energy monitor shows the leaf is pulling 6.6 kW, its rated draw, up to the end, where the car reports a 86 mile range, and 12 out of 12 bars, or 100% SOC.
--L3 chargers are programmed to quit at 80% SOC to avoid overcharge damage to the battery. They are still supposedly 'hard on' the battery, not for everyday use.
--Until recently (2013 MY), EVSEs were $2k, and all chargers were 3.3 kW. With a 3.3 kW charger (or an undersized L2 EVSE) you would see a less dramatic improvement (3.3kW/1.3kW = 2.5x faster). Would you pay $2k for a 2.5X speed up or would you gripe?
--I paid $650 for a 5X speed increase. For me, this allows (i) two 'max range' drives in a day (with a 4 hour home charge in the middle) rather than one, or (ii) if I deplete the car and come home at 11PM, I have a fully charged car in the morning rather than a less than half charged one (at L1 rates).
--Even after the car is fully charged, it continues to 'blink' the EVSE so it looks like it is still charging for another hour or more, but the efergy shows very low draw. According to EV forums, the Leaf is trickle charging the accessory battery during this time...
--Yes, the Leaf has a regular car battery in addition to the Li 'traction battery'. I suppose you can listen to the radio and charge your phone while you are waiting for roadside assistance after bottoming out your traction battery. Joking aside, when your phone runs out of juice it crashes or goes dead. When the traction battery is 'done', the car's systems are still 'live', so the little voice can tell you that you are out of charge, and display a 'turtle' on the dash (no joke). Hopefully I will never see the 'turtle of doom'.

 

[begreen]

I'd rather see a turtle of doom than a BSOD in a car. And yes, since getting the Volt I have been more of a "lead foot". With the Prius you were always pulse and glide driving to try and eek a mile or so out of the battery. With the Volt as long as your trip is well within battery range, you just silently drive. Add to that a very low center of gravity, a good suspension and a "sport" mode for extra juice to the traction motor and things can get lively, in a good way. I think Chevy and others are missing the mark with their advertising. Driving enjoyment should be listed as one of the top features.

 

[Slow1]

I'm about $3K more out of pocket than that deal, but I wanted the charger package, which is more than half of that difference. Still sounds like a good deal.

Re maintenance...all the stuff it doesn't have, transmission, belts, muffler, etc, prob not a big issue in first 36k miles anyway. As with the Prii above, the brake wear is prob lower because of the regen braking.

I think Nissan currently has 3 years free roadside assistance, and they are talking about adding in free charging at all the existing L2 charging locations (~15000 nationwide).

Well, I ended up buying one (see my other thread I started). What threw me over is that Nissan had/has a $3500 incentive to use their financing, then MA came out with an additional $2500 rebate so that knocked $6K off the price compared to what I was looking at. I ended up buying rather than leasing as the net amount was worth it, walked out with the 2013-S+ Charger package (Sounds like what you got) for a very comfortable price.

Sent the wife off on a 74 mile drive the next day... she had some anxiety when it complained about needing to charge, but she made it!

 

[mass_burner]

Madzda5 is a gas guzzler?? Who knew.

everything is relative, my '69 Buick gets about 13-16 MPG.