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a splitter forged in the bowels of hell ! see pics

Post in 'The Gear' started by WoodButcher80, Apr 14, 2009.

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  1. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    good idea! what i need to know is what kind of load can a typical 20 horse splitter take? ive never used one that big. i mean i know ill hear the engine struggle a little big (RPMs dip kind of like when a pressure washer gun handle is depressed) . . . but how much?

    im thinkin this bugger is gonna eat anything you throw at it without changin its RPM tune.
    but a log sideways???? sheesh.. that powerfull right?

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  2. Jamess67

    Jamess67 Feeling the Heat

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    20 hp should be able to rip the end plate off. Just kidding.
    It has more to do with the pump pressure, where the bypass is set and the diameter of the cylinder.
    Personally I wouldnt try to max it out until you have time to inspect all the welds, hoses, fittings, etc, Take some hard to split rounds and have a go at it. If it does that without stalling or blowing fluid, consider it a good buy.

    From my limited experience most pumps put out between 2500-3000 psi. That on a 3 inch cylinder will only give you about 14 tons of force.
    That being said it has the POTENTIAL to be much more. If you add a 6" dia cylinder now your looking at 28 tons. with a High volume pump youll have speed and ALOT 0f force. But as it sits I wouldnt expect it to cut a log in half sideways.

    take ALOT of Pics. Its like we all are getting a "new" toy.
  3. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    but if i added that big of a cylinder, isnt that one of the things that makes log splitters expensive to build? the hydro cylinder? im leaving in the morning. if i come home with that my girlfriend is gonna kill me , but hey, ill play with it , if i dont like it , i can clean her up and sell it for more $$ in peak season in early fall ! but i think ill keep her! (the splitter that is ! ) :)
  4. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    picked her up! 400 smackers! not too bad.he also put a new tire on and delivered. it wouldnt fit width-wise on my trailer so i drove home without it and hes delivering it in an hour.
    it ripped through the sugar maple crotch log, the nasty elm split , and a piece of maple stump. it struggled a little on the maple stump, but i just repositioned and it plowed through.

    the cylinder arm is 2" , so ill look into getting a new arm sometime. it simply bolts right on to the I-beam . ill load more pics . your probably right, its 14 ton or so, about it with only a 2" arm. what would i need to upgrade then? is it called a hydraulic arm ? just tryin to figure out the 'keyword' search.

    i think the first thing ill do is put a new detent on it so i can have an automatic return. i guess i can get any one that has the mounting bolts lined up and hydro pump lin on the right side? i have no idea.

    thanks guys !
  5. Stevebass4

    Stevebass4 Minister of Fire

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    congrats on the new splitter!!!
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa Minister of Fire

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    The size of the shiny ram rod does not determine the tonnage. It's the size of the piston inside the cylinder that matters.
  7. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    thanks Steve !

    when he delivered it , he noticed a splash of hydro fluid that came out of the hydro tank cap... come to find out , it was hand tightened so some splashed out. my question is this:

    most log splitters can take either non foaming hydraulic tractor oil OR automatic tranny fluid. . . it says not to mix them. so if im only topping off.

    1. how full is the tank supposed to be? mines a couple inches below the top of the round long cylinder.
    2. how do i know what fluid i currently have?
    3. or should i bleed it all out?

    im trying to find out what maintenance steps i should take .

    you know, like when you get a used truck you lube up the grease gun points, change oil, air filter, fluids , etc.

    thanks!
  8. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    so should i just test her out on some rounds for a day, and if i dont need any more power, leave it? ill put some pics up soon!
  9. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    the pump is a cessna 24500-510c . i cant find any info on it on google.
  10. rowerwet

    rowerwet Minister of Fire

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    Cessna makes airplanes, check on cessnaparts.com. The cessnas that I work with (402c) have a hydraulic pump on each engine that puts out 1500 psi or so. (system rating is 1750 psi.) if this is a cessna part you will find the parts very expensive, but if you can find who makes it for them and convince them it isn't going flying (liability) they should have an alternative for MUCH less. Cessna likes to take almost every part they use and renumber it so they can sell it to their service centers at a mark up who then mark it up when they sell it. anyone who knows, knows to pull the cessna tag off and find the original part number for the next time they have to order it, if cessna was smart enough to relable it. (there is a reason they are the 800 Lb gorrilla of aviation)
  11. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    its not a cessna sticker, its actually stamped into the pump. like you can stick your fingernail into the model numbers on the pump.


    i also found out its a MILLER pump , 5 3/4" outer diameter.

    it can fit 20" logs . wish it was more but heck, my baker only fits 21" .

    heres a video of me turning up the throttle and splitting a round.

    [​IMG]



    and heres one demoing the ram


    [​IMG]
  12. Brian VT

    Brian VT Minister of Fire

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    Looks pretty quick. Nice.
    Did you try cutting something sideways yet ? I would have to just for kicks and to see how much snot she has. lol
  13. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    i did. it smooshes into it pretty good, about half way, but then bogs the engine a bit so i stopped. then again, it was sugar maple. that test worries me since i just got it and dont want to blow anything up ...yet :)
  14. Brian VT

    Brian VT Minister of Fire

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    That's about as far as I would have gone too, just to get a feel for what she's got.
    Sounds like you did okay. I'm jealous. Now go grow that wood pile !
  15. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    There are ONLY TWO factors that determine how powerful a splitter can be... The diameter of the PISTON in the hydraulic cylinder (NOT the piston rod that comes out of the cylinder, but the actual piston itself) and the maximum pressure the pump will put out (usually determined by the overpressure relief valve in the control valve.) ENGINE HORSEPOWER IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! (as long as there is enough)

    The easiest way to determine the maximum pressure is to get a pressure guage and tee fitting from your local hydraulic shop - go for a 4-5,000 PSI guage, and install it in the high pressure line between the pump and the valve. Attempt to do the "sideways split" and see what the maximum pressure is that you reach before the over-pressure valve releases (the guage will stop climbing) - if the guage starts to go significantly over about 3500psi, STOP! This suggests that your overpressure relief is not working properly, and you could be approaching the point where things are reaching unsafe pressures.

    Piston diameter is harder to determine directly, but the simplest way to make a good guess is to measure the OUTSIDE diameter of the cylinder, and round down to the nearest inch (allow at least 1/2" for cylinder wall thickness - i.e. if the cylinder is 5.75" OD, it is probably a 5" piston...

    Calculate the area of the piston in square inches (1/2 diameter(squared) x 3.14) and multiply it by the maximum pressure, then divide by 2,000 to convert to tons - that is the power of your splitter.

    To increase the power of the unit, increase the cylinder piston size. If you don't change anything else, this will slow the cycle time.

    To improve the cycle time, put on a higher GPM rated pump - but do not exceeed the horsepower capacity of the engine - figure 2hp per gpm on a single stage pump, or 2 nominal gpm per hp on a dual stage pump such as you would find on most commercial splitters (i.e. 5.5 hp for an 11gpm pump, 8hp for a 16gpm, etc - this is because a dual stage pump goes to 1/4 rated volume when it kicks into high pressure mode) With the motor you have, you should have no problem with any of the common two stage splitter pumps.

    On fluids - given that you have an unknown history machine, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing to change both engine and hydraulic oil, but it's your call. To tell the difference, I'd look at the color of the fluid - hydraulic oil is usually clear, ATF is red or pink...

    Fluid level is usally an inch or two below the top of the tank when things are cold, note that the fluid will expand considerably when it gets hot so you need to leave room for expansion.

    Hope this helps.

    Gooserider
  16. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    thanks goose !!!

    well, it seems like a 5" piston is big enough. the cycle time is fast, so im assuming the pump is up to par, and the engine is just plain overkill . the fluid in it is ATF . if i were to drain the tank, would i take off one of the hydraulic lines??? i wouldnt think so , seeing how you wouldnt wanna mess with them if theyre sealed. i have a hand siphon pump i can use. the stuff i looked at in tractor supply down the road was 60$ for 5 gallons. its here http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp...10551_10001_44659_-1______?rFlag=true&cFlag=1

    there is a square nut on the fitting in the front of the hydro tank.. but i guess i can siphon it. do i need to remove every drop? or is it ok for a half cup at the bottom?

    im assuming i would get more power if i went to a two stage pump like this?
    http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200321055_200321055
    it would be more psi than mine if we assumed mine was 1500psi . i emailed a few companies to see if they had any specs on the pump. i told them mine broke and i need an exact spec replacement , so then i could see what they give me and go off those stats :) .
  17. Jamess67

    Jamess67 Feeling the Heat

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    I would say you did good on this. Seem powerful enough and fast as greased owl poop. I would change all fluids, and filters if it has one. If it doesnt, add one, along witha pressure gauge. Pressure wash and paint (but thats just me).Then just run it. See what it will and will not do. Chances are you wont have to change a thing based what wood you usually split.
  18. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    IMHO a 4" piston is enough for most applications, and a 5" falls in the mild overkill zone... My machine has a 5" and I have thought occasionally that it would be worth changing to a 4" piston in order to get the faster cycle time, as I really don't seem to need the extra power the 5" cylinder gives me... (I'd have to swap engines to go to a bigger pump...)

    The hydraulic fluid you point at seems like it would work, but there are plenty of other options. I found that there was a lot of difference in prices when I shopped around, and IIRC the stuff I ended up getting for my HF splitter was about $10 / bucket less than TSC.

    Can't tell if the pump you are pointing at would be faster than what you have or not - since we aren't really sure what the specs are on what you have... However that is basically the same pump that I'm running on my HF splitter, with a 9.5hp Subaru/Robin engine... Given what you are running for a motor, I'd look at one of the 22gpm pumps for even faster times, and still not straining that motor. (More money though...)

    In terms of changing out the fluid, I'd try to get as much out as I could, but wouldn't necessarily be fanatic about it. No reason not to crack the hydraulic lines if that gives you an easier / more complete drain. If you really want to get as much out as you can, hook a come-a-long to the end of the piston and manually cycle it back and forth while working the valve to get the last bit out of the system - a good idea if you are changing fluid types from ATF to hydraulic fluid - if you are changing the fluid but staying with the same type, it might not be as critical.

    At this point, it sounds like what you have works reasonably well, so I'd probably throw a guage on the high pressure line to see what the pump is doing, but otherwise leave things be until you get to know the machine better.

    Gooserider
  19. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    well i dont have a come a long to use. i plan on not using the ATF fluid anymore, though i could to keep it the SAME . when i was moving it around the yard with my 3-wheeler, i noticed a reddish pump oil coming out of the weep hole cap on the hydro tank... so my guess is its ATF fluid.

    i hear that non foaming hydro oil is better than atf .

    my question is this :

    if i drain all the ATF fluid from the reservoir tank, i need to get the fluid out of the lines too right? how do i do that ? and if its easy, which lines have some fluid still in them when the machines off? i just didnt want to fuss with the line ends if i didnt need to . i dont use pipe tape on these do i? they seal themselves right?

    thanks!
  20. savageactor7

    savageactor7 Minister of Fire

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    WoodButcher80 congrats on the new splitter. I'd recommend using that white tape to seal those hydraulic threads if you take 'em apart...around here lots of guy use ATF if they split in the winter. Just say'en.
  21. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    There are arguements either way on pump oil type - ATF supposedly has the advantage of not thickening up as much in the cold, but it isn't a huge difference otherwise.

    ALL the lines should be full of fluid when the machine is off, the system never drains back since it needs air to do so, and there is no place for air to get in... Ditto for the cylinder. Cracking the lines will allow them to drain, I would probably open the pressure line to the valve, and the return, then manually move the piston while operating the valve in the appropriate direction - you probably won't be able to do this easily by hand, which is why I suggested a come-a-long. You could also use a ratcheting tiedown strap, or any other such item.

    Fitting type varies, there are hydraulic fittings that work like compression fittings and shouldn't need any sort of sealant, others are standard NPT pipe thread, and must be sealed with teflon tape and/or pipe dope (I use both)

    Gooserider
  22. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    you want it you got it.
    15" diameter knotted sugar maple round (see knot on top of round)
    not too shabby

    oh , and btw , heres the stats on the pump... whatever they mean !

    1.72 cu-in
    CCW rotation
    SAE B 2-bolt mount
    2500 PSI max.
    3000 RPM max.

    my guess 12gpm to 20? well atleast thats what they recommended for a replacement from surpluscenter.com . he was the only one that knew what my pump was from the number .

    he recommended this pump but wanted to know my port and shaft size .
    https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-4442-D&catname=hydraulic



    [​IMG]
  23. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    If I understand the terminology, it's 1.72 cubic inch displacement, meaning it should push that much oil out on each revolution - multiply that by your engine speed, and convert to gallons for your maximum theoretical output. According to ConvertMe.com 1.72"^3 is equal to 0.007446 gallons, so assuming 1800 RPM, I get 13.4gpm, or 22gpm at the max RPM of 3,000; about the same as the replacement he points at.

    CCW rotation is the direction the pump is designed to turn in. Go the other way and at best you pump backwards, at worst things break...

    The SAE B 2-bolt mount is the design spec for the mount - in theory any pump designed to that spec should fit, no matter who made it - and any other pump won't unless you change the mount.

    The PSI and RPM max ratings are the performance limits - if you exceed them significantly "Bad Things (TM)" will likely happen...

    As to the port and shaft sizes, presumably those can vary, so he would need to know what they are in order to ensure that the replacement would fit, or sell you the appropriate adapters.

    Doing a very quick look at Northern, they have a 28gpm Haldex two stage pump, but I'm not convinced it would really do that much for you if the pump you have now works...

    (BTW, that "Convert-me" site has nothing to do with religion :lol: but it's a very good site for converting from one unit to another - select the right class of units, enter the value that you know, and it will give you the equivalent in just about any other unit there is. Highly useful.)

    Gooserider
  24. WoodButcher80

    WoodButcher80 Feeling the Heat

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    thanks goose.

    when i asked the tech what GPM my pump was , he stated this:

    "The GPM rating depends on the RPM you are spinning the pump. The faster you spin it, the more GPM you will get. Vice versa, the slower you spin the pump, the less GPM you will get. Your pump is rated for 21 GPM at maximum RPM and maximum pressure."


    i think im good , eh?
  25. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Exactly... The pump moves a certain amount with each revolution, so your gpm is going to be directly related to the number of revolutions per time unit... There is also a certain amount of inefficiency, probably due mostly to fluid leaking past seals, friction losses, etc. so you will actually get a little less than the rated volume, which is probably why the tech said 21gpm.

    I would say that as long as things work, you are good to go. That is no slouch of a pump, so I don't see any reason to spend money on upgrading it unless there is some sign that it is actually not working.

    Gooserider
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