After starting the fire,it will burn for up to 30 minutes,then go out,but pellets continue to feed.I've cleaned everwhere that can be accessed,so there is no ash to block airways.All the swicthes seem to be giving the proper readings when checked w/an ohmmeter.Door and ash trap gaskets are good,and damper is adjusted to factory spec. This problem started after I had to remove the auger to clear a jam (a nail got jammed in it). Stove had been a bit tempermental prior to this,but at least it would keep running. Any help would be appreciated.
Advantage II-fire goes out
- Thread starter franxredhot
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lmjr
Member
First thing that the Stove Safety Circuits stops is always the auger feed.
But there is one condition that will not immediately Stop the auger feed, if combustion fan motor over-heats internally it will stop by it's internal thermal protection.
With no combustion fan you have no fire, but Stove Safety Circuits are unaware that motor has quit and continue to drop pellets until Low Limit would cool to 120*and then OPEN and STOP the Auger Feed.
After the Stove is all cold again (and the faulty motor too) it will again re-start only to again over heat the motor and repeat the cycle.
Sooo...you need to try a good cleaning and oiling of that motor or buy some piece of mind and buy a new one.
Hope this helps!
Master of Smoke
But there is one condition that will not immediately Stop the auger feed, if combustion fan motor over-heats internally it will stop by it's internal thermal protection.
With no combustion fan you have no fire, but Stove Safety Circuits are unaware that motor has quit and continue to drop pellets until Low Limit would cool to 120*and then OPEN and STOP the Auger Feed.
After the Stove is all cold again (and the faulty motor too) it will again re-start only to again over heat the motor and repeat the cycle.
Sooo...you need to try a good cleaning and oiling of that motor or buy some piece of mind and buy a new one.
Hope this helps!
Master of Smoke
Stovensen
Minister of Fire
"The #1 reason a pellet stove will shut down after 10-20 minutes after start up is:
LOW LIMIT DISC"
Quote from a very instructive troubleshooting site written by member of this forum, Hearthtools
http://www.hearthtools.com/parts/lowlimit.htm
LOW LIMIT DISC"
Quote from a very instructive troubleshooting site written by member of this forum, Hearthtools
http://www.hearthtools.com/parts/lowlimit.htm
lmjr
Member
Stovensen said:
That is oh so true!
What makes this one different is that it continued to feed pellets...The Low Limit Disc failing will NOT allow auger feed to continue.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
I agree 100% with M O S
The exhaust fan on the Advantage is what pulls air into the firepot and if that fan quits, its game over and fire out.
Now there is a possibility that the control board has an issue and is cutting the power off.
The controller varies tha exhaust fan speed some depending on the feed/heat setting.
If the triac in the board is taking a poop, the fan may be fine but is not getting power.
Try running the stove until the fire goes out, then before anything cools, check to see if the exhaust fan is running, if not, check to see if there is voltage coming to the fan.
No voltage = a bad control board.
If voltage presnt, bad fan motor
Good luck and keep us posted.
Snowy
The exhaust fan on the Advantage is what pulls air into the firepot and if that fan quits, its game over and fire out.
Now there is a possibility that the control board has an issue and is cutting the power off.
The controller varies tha exhaust fan speed some depending on the feed/heat setting.
If the triac in the board is taking a poop, the fan may be fine but is not getting power.
Try running the stove until the fire goes out, then before anything cools, check to see if the exhaust fan is running, if not, check to see if there is voltage coming to the fan.
No voltage = a bad control board.
If voltage presnt, bad fan motor
Good luck and keep us posted.
Snowy
Fire is out,both motors are running and pellets continue to feed.The problem seems to be air,but everything has been vacuumed-I even went so far as to pull the baffles behind the firebrick to clean there.I also pulled the exhaust blower and made sure that there was no blockage in that area and that the damper was actually operational.
Damper rod is adjusted to factory spec and all airways seem to be clear.
What about the air tubes behind the ashpan?Are they supposed to be connected to something?If they are,it's possible that something got knocked loose when I had to pull the stove out.
Damper rod is adjusted to factory spec and all airways seem to be clear.
What about the air tubes behind the ashpan?Are they supposed to be connected to something?If they are,it's possible that something got knocked loose when I had to pull the stove out.
Stovensen
Minister of Fire
OP informs us in the headline that it's an Advantage II. Now, I don't know exactly how this particular stove is wired... securityswitches etc. , sooo I did a little research on this important issue... I mean, I don't at all like the scenario with an augermotor that continues to feed pellets although the combustionmotor has quitted.
Could this happen on other Whitfield stovemodels?
The wiring of my "Quest Plus" is identical to that of a "Quest" shown on the schematics below. We clearly see that the augermotor is in series with the high limit switch and the pressure switch.
This securityarrangement means that a combustion fan motor that quits, will always stop the augermotor. And so will overheating.
When we are talking about security, this arrangement is very very important.
The other schematics is of a WP 2. As far as I know this type of wiring is used in some of the early Advantage stoves. Including Master of Smoke's stove.
The "watchdogs" in series with the augermotor are clearly missing here, but, does this really mean that the Advantage II WP 2 was never equipped with a pressure switch? Or, is it placed somewhere else?
Could this happen on other Whitfield stovemodels?
The wiring of my "Quest Plus" is identical to that of a "Quest" shown on the schematics below. We clearly see that the augermotor is in series with the high limit switch and the pressure switch.
This securityarrangement means that a combustion fan motor that quits, will always stop the augermotor. And so will overheating.
When we are talking about security, this arrangement is very very important.
The other schematics is of a WP 2. As far as I know this type of wiring is used in some of the early Advantage stoves. Including Master of Smoke's stove.
The "watchdogs" in series with the augermotor are clearly missing here, but, does this really mean that the Advantage II WP 2 was never equipped with a pressure switch? Or, is it placed somewhere else?
Attachments
Fire burned all night.Seems it was a combination of airfllow and pellet feed.Settings must've got messed up when I had to tear everything apart.
Here's how I figured it out-I started a fire w/ a couple pine cones,when they were going real well,I started the pellet feed and played w/ the damper rod until the flame stayed high and steady.Then I noticed that the pellets seemed to be burning up almost instantly,without sustaining the fire,so I turned up the feed rate and so far so good.
The trick now will be to put the stove back in place and then see if it will keep going on the lowest heat setting.
Thanks for all the suggestions,reading through them got me pointed in the right direction.
Here's how I figured it out-I started a fire w/ a couple pine cones,when they were going real well,I started the pellet feed and played w/ the damper rod until the flame stayed high and steady.Then I noticed that the pellets seemed to be burning up almost instantly,without sustaining the fire,so I turned up the feed rate and so far so good.
The trick now will be to put the stove back in place and then see if it will keep going on the lowest heat setting.
Thanks for all the suggestions,reading through them got me pointed in the right direction.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
The advantage 2 does have a pressure switch in the system.
I looked mine over and the switch is connected to the outflow of the exhaust fan.
This switch is used to sense a problem with the airflow in the chimney. If the air pressure becomes too high the stove will shut off. (.1" wc)
There is not a neg pressure sensor on the firebox in these older stoves.
Also, there is not a door safety switch either to stop the auger in the even that the family dog that chaces his tail, accidentally hits the handle and open the door.
These older stoves are not a bad unit, just not as sophisticated as the newer ones.
The little Whitfield "Prodigy" has a door safety switch that stops the draft inducer and the auger if the door is opened.
This system is not present on the larger stoves.
Make sure that your door gasket is in good order, this will assure a good airflow through the burn grate.
Running too much airflow at a very low fuel setting can cause the pellets to burn up completely between auger cycles.
The optimal setting should leave at least some fire in the grate when the next auger cycle drops more pellets into the fire.
Your burn grate should have a series of little bars in the bottom with about 3/16 spacing between them.
As a stove gets a lot of time on it, these bars can burn up some and the spacing can get wider and allow some of the partially burned pellets to drop through into the ash pan.
Just a for whatever its worth.
I use nut shells in my Advantage and had to install a little plate in the bottom of the grate that had rows of 3/16 holes in it.
This mod allowed the relatively small pieces to stay in the grate and burn.
I crused through the Service manual a bit ago and I am begining to think that maybe your issue is as your describing, "The fire is burning out too quickly"
There are some trim adjustements that you can access through the face of the control board.
The normal "ON TIME" (time the auger feeds per cycle) on the number one setting is factory set at 1.4 seconds
You can trim this from 1.4 to 2.2 seconds with the trimmer adjustment.
The Off time (time between cycles) on low is factory set at 6 seconds but can be adjusted between 6 and 8 seconds
You may want to bump the feed "ON TIME" up just a tad to get just a little more fuel into the pot on each cycle. Maybe closer to 2 seconds of feed time.
I have my unit set near 2 seconds and all is well.
This whole issue can vary depending on what you are feeding the thing for fuel.
The Burn time or off time can also contribute to the issue too.
use a watch with a second hand and time the on and off times to see where they are at now and then go from there.
Remember, adjustment changes the whole range of on and off times, so in the higher ranges the times will be effected too.
Normally most folks dont use the really high settings. I never go above number 2 setting.
OH BTW does your stove have the control knobs or is it a touch pad setup ??
Keep us posted
Oh just a side note. If you have pets (large dog) or kids that could accidentally bump the door handle, I would recommend a "safety hook" on the door latch to prevent accidental opening.
Snowy
I looked mine over and the switch is connected to the outflow of the exhaust fan.
This switch is used to sense a problem with the airflow in the chimney. If the air pressure becomes too high the stove will shut off. (.1" wc)
There is not a neg pressure sensor on the firebox in these older stoves.
Also, there is not a door safety switch either to stop the auger in the even that the family dog that chaces his tail, accidentally hits the handle and open the door.
These older stoves are not a bad unit, just not as sophisticated as the newer ones.
The little Whitfield "Prodigy" has a door safety switch that stops the draft inducer and the auger if the door is opened.
This system is not present on the larger stoves.
Make sure that your door gasket is in good order, this will assure a good airflow through the burn grate.
Running too much airflow at a very low fuel setting can cause the pellets to burn up completely between auger cycles.
The optimal setting should leave at least some fire in the grate when the next auger cycle drops more pellets into the fire.
Your burn grate should have a series of little bars in the bottom with about 3/16 spacing between them.
As a stove gets a lot of time on it, these bars can burn up some and the spacing can get wider and allow some of the partially burned pellets to drop through into the ash pan.
Just a for whatever its worth.
I use nut shells in my Advantage and had to install a little plate in the bottom of the grate that had rows of 3/16 holes in it.
This mod allowed the relatively small pieces to stay in the grate and burn.
I crused through the Service manual a bit ago and I am begining to think that maybe your issue is as your describing, "The fire is burning out too quickly"
There are some trim adjustements that you can access through the face of the control board.
The normal "ON TIME" (time the auger feeds per cycle) on the number one setting is factory set at 1.4 seconds
You can trim this from 1.4 to 2.2 seconds with the trimmer adjustment.
The Off time (time between cycles) on low is factory set at 6 seconds but can be adjusted between 6 and 8 seconds
You may want to bump the feed "ON TIME" up just a tad to get just a little more fuel into the pot on each cycle. Maybe closer to 2 seconds of feed time.
I have my unit set near 2 seconds and all is well.
This whole issue can vary depending on what you are feeding the thing for fuel.
The Burn time or off time can also contribute to the issue too.
use a watch with a second hand and time the on and off times to see where they are at now and then go from there.
Remember, adjustment changes the whole range of on and off times, so in the higher ranges the times will be effected too.
Normally most folks dont use the really high settings. I never go above number 2 setting.
OH BTW does your stove have the control knobs or is it a touch pad setup ??
Keep us posted
Oh just a side note. If you have pets (large dog) or kids that could accidentally bump the door handle, I would recommend a "safety hook" on the door latch to prevent accidental opening.
Snowy
After a full night of operation,the only problem I still have is excessive ash.We have to shut it down and vacuum just about every day.Need more air?
Pellet-King
Minister of Fire
Need better pellets!, you burning Inferno's?? dont get too excited over the ash, my stove burns for a week+ without a cleaning, it's the nature of Whitfield that alot of the ash collects around the firepot, let it build up till the glass is full!!
My Broinlaw has the same problem with his enviro always cleaning it daily, bah humbug!!
If my stove had a igniter i'd go for weeks!!
My Broinlaw has the same problem with his enviro always cleaning it daily, bah humbug!!
If my stove had a igniter i'd go for weeks!!
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
Take a Piccy of the ash when its up to the point that your getting worried. Post the piccy and let us see whasssup..
My advantage 2 will run for a week and be fine.
I clean when the ash is about 4-5 inches deep around the perimeter of the firepot.
The normal residue is about 1% of whatever you have burned.
So if you burned a bag (40 pounds) thats 4/10 of a pound of ash (approx 6 onces)
These stoves do not stay super clean.
Even the Quads that run like a bloody blow torch will have some residue collect.
The stoves that run very hot with the "Blow torch fire" will tend to churn the ash up and blow more of it out the vent than the slow burners like the Whitfield.
I just shut my Advantage II down to clean it. Here is a piccy of a weeks worth of ash at a steady 24 hour run on the number one setting
Snowy
My advantage 2 will run for a week and be fine.
I clean when the ash is about 4-5 inches deep around the perimeter of the firepot.
The normal residue is about 1% of whatever you have burned.
So if you burned a bag (40 pounds) thats 4/10 of a pound of ash (approx 6 onces)
These stoves do not stay super clean.
Even the Quads that run like a bloody blow torch will have some residue collect.
The stoves that run very hot with the "Blow torch fire" will tend to churn the ash up and blow more of it out the vent than the slow burners like the Whitfield.
I just shut my Advantage II down to clean it. Here is a piccy of a weeks worth of ash at a steady 24 hour run on the number one setting
Snowy
Attachments
Snowy Rivers,based on your pic,I guess my ash build-up may be close to normal.
I need to check how well the stove will run on one-it's kinda finicky on that setting,reminds me of an old Merc outboard I used to have.
I need to check how well the stove will run on one-it's kinda finicky on that setting,reminds me of an old Merc outboard I used to have.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
Try tweeking the on time adjustment pot a tad to allow it to feed slightly more fuel and maybe tweek the off (burn time) a bit to give slightly less time between feed cycles.
Here is a piccy with what I just cleaned out of the stove. A little bit went down the vacuum into the central system but not much.
This is a 6 gallon soap bucket and you can see whats in the bottom. This is a full weeks worth of burning with two of the soap pails worth of shells a day being fed into the beast.
Using pellets, you should have less ash that what I get with the shells, depending on the brand and what they are made from.
Pine leaves little ash, the Douglas fir we get out here in the Pacific NW tends to leave more ash, especially the chaep stuff that has a lot of bark and dirt in it.
If it will burn, it goes in the hopper around here.
Snowy
Here is a piccy with what I just cleaned out of the stove. A little bit went down the vacuum into the central system but not much.
This is a 6 gallon soap bucket and you can see whats in the bottom. This is a full weeks worth of burning with two of the soap pails worth of shells a day being fed into the beast.
Using pellets, you should have less ash that what I get with the shells, depending on the brand and what they are made from.
Pine leaves little ash, the Douglas fir we get out here in the Pacific NW tends to leave more ash, especially the chaep stuff that has a lot of bark and dirt in it.
If it will burn, it goes in the hopper around here.
Snowy
Attachments
lmjr
Member
franxredhot said:
Then here's the problem:
Someone replaced the Low Limit Disk w/ a High Limit Disk by mistake. Or interchanged the wires incorrectly @ the Control Board.
With L.L operated incorrectly as with a H.L., it will shut the comb. fan down when H.L. goes open, this interruption may be missed being noticed by homeowner but, not by the combustion process...interruption creates a lack of oxygen (Air) causing a "Flame Out" but, as soon as it cools enough...it CLOSES again and restarts both motors and homeowner believes it was running all along.
Does this make sense?
L.L.= Normally Open; H.L.= Normally Closed.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
The Advantage has two (2) high limit switches and a low limit switch.
If a high limit switch was used in place of the low limit switch, that would explain why the stove goes out after a while.
If a Low limit switch was installed in place of a high limit the stove would not run at all when cold.
Unfortunately the high limit switches shut down power to the feed motor and the feed motor in this instance is still feeding.
I dont really think this is a miss matched snap switch issue.
Easy enough to check these with a VOM and see wassssup.
Sounds like a bad adjustment in the time settings on the low setting.
My Advantage would nearly go out on low when I first got it. I had to tweek the on time up to about 2 seconds on and set the low setting at 6 seconds off instead of the near 8 that it was at.
Being a used unit, who knows what fingers have been into it and reset what.
Snowy
If a high limit switch was used in place of the low limit switch, that would explain why the stove goes out after a while.
If a Low limit switch was installed in place of a high limit the stove would not run at all when cold.
Unfortunately the high limit switches shut down power to the feed motor and the feed motor in this instance is still feeding.
I dont really think this is a miss matched snap switch issue.
Easy enough to check these with a VOM and see wassssup.
Sounds like a bad adjustment in the time settings on the low setting.
My Advantage would nearly go out on low when I first got it. I had to tweek the on time up to about 2 seconds on and set the low setting at 6 seconds off instead of the near 8 that it was at.
Being a used unit, who knows what fingers have been into it and reset what.
Snowy
lmjr
Member
Snowy Rivers said:
Snowy,
With all due respect, the miss-placed H.L. cools off very soon because it OPENS @ set-point and rapidly cools off due to NO Fuel and more so NO Air/Oxygen and promptly goes back CLOSED which restarts BOTH Motors. Unfortunately this is after the fire is out.
A loss of Fire Shall Never Allow an Auto Re-Start Attempt!
As you indicated, easy enough to check the L.L. switch, which is mounted @ Comb. Fan, to verify it's OPEN when stove is Cold.
Snowy Rivers
Minister of Fire
Ok I see where your coming from.
My stove has had the High limit snaps swaped out for manual reset ones.
If mine pop open, you have to press the little reset button to get them back on again
Yess if the standard ones that auto reset are used, then I can see where this could happen.
The exhaust housing would get up to opening temp and then kill the fire.
Sure enough
Snowy
My stove has had the High limit snaps swaped out for manual reset ones.
If mine pop open, you have to press the little reset button to get them back on again
Yess if the standard ones that auto reset are used, then I can see where this could happen.
The exhaust housing would get up to opening temp and then kill the fire.
Sure enough
Snowy
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