Am I stuck with Propane!?

[Irish916]

Hi folks- long time lurker here. I wanted to get your feedback on potential options for me to replace my TEMCO DV5200MBN (converted to LP) gas fireplace. I posted in this section because I'm hoping to move to a more economical and efficient fuel type.

Let me explain my set up in detail. I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania. My house is a ranch home that we bought new in September of 2007. Since it's a ranch, we only have a single wide floor to heat.

My current propane fireplace sits in the center of the living room in a boxed out mantle configuration that extends in from the exterior wall (into the room) by 27.75". The framed area that contains the firebox is about 82" wide. The actual opening of the firebox measures approximately 40.5"W x 36.5"H. The TEMCO DV5200MBN is rated between 17,000 to 25,000BTU. It is vented through a verticle vent that exits out of the roof. I believe it's exhausted through a 7in pipe. There is a tile (ceramic)hearth that extends forward from the fireplace - approximately 30"x82".

Now as you can see, 25,000 BTU is not enough heat for a house during a Pennsylvania winters. What I am looking for are alternative options that would be more economical, such as wood, pellet or coal. After explaining my set up to local fireplace stores (on location - they did not come see my set up) they all seem to think that I don't have many options for replacing my propane because of the heat the other types of systems would generate. I'm not married to the verticle venting, and probably would favor venting out the back through the exterior wall. What I am most curious about is if there are alternative insert options that I can use in place of my existing propane unit? Since the fireplace already extends into the living room by 27.75", I really don't want a unit that sits on the hearth in front of the previous fireplace...I just think asthetically that wouldn't work for the room.

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[KevinG]

Could you upload a few pictures? Not too close, try to give us a wide perspective of the space.

There have been some people here who removed their built-in fireplace, creating a nook in which they placed a woodstove. Perhaps they'll chime in...

 

[Fsappo]

It sounds like a situation where we would suggest pulling out the old and putting in a new EPA certified wood fireplace. Photos would be a help. I'm fuming about you not being able to get a shop to make a site check.

 

[jimbom]

We removed a zero clearance wood fireplace this summer and installed a wood stove. The zc came out easily. We were able to use the vertical chase for the new chimney. For us, it was a quick and relatively easy change. Sandwiched around other summer tasks, it took a while, but all is good now.

The most time consuming items were study and planning to make sure the stove installation was absolutely safe and in compliance with the stove manufacturer and chimney manufacturer requirements. We are not modern stove experienced, so our learning curve was steep. Perhaps being inexperienced is good. We were not tempted to cut any corners. To the contrary, every requirement and minimum is exceeded. Still was relatively easy.

Good luck with your project.

 

[begreen]

Is the Temco the sole source of heat in the house? No furnace?

As noted, one option would be to tear out the propane system and put in a good wood burning system. But that would leave you without backup heat for when you are away or sick. Another option would be to install electric heaters as backup. Or could you install a freestanding stove somewhere central in the house and leave the Temco in? That will give you the most bang for you buck in terms of long fires and minimal tending, especially if it is a catalytic stove.

 

[Irish916]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm going to make an attempt to attach a pic of the set up. I know they've rocked in the inside of the walls, but I'm not sure if they used any fire retardant rock, but I'm assuming they have. I'm also fairly certain the framing standard wood stud. I would imagine the firebox comes out easily enough, but the concern is about what to put in there - again with it putting out so much more heat I'm not sure what would need to be done to space to ensure it's fireproof.

Thanks again for your advice on this.

FYI- Correction: The tile hearth is closer to 26x64

 

[Irish916]

Is the Temco the sole source of heat in the house? No furnace?

No the house has a forced air heating/cooling system. This was supposed to be supplemental...but it's not even that. It doesn't put out enough heat during our winter to do that. Since our heating/air is powered by electric and our utilities in PA are now uncapped, we are paying mini bar prices for electricity...taking $450 electric bills to run the heat in the dead of winter. So I need a viable alternative source ASAP!

 

[98dingo]

The famous line is......Anything is possible with the right amount of money

 

[Irish916]

:cheese: that's comforting.

What I'm trying to understand is whether or not I can pull this zero clearance box out and put in another box that burns alternative, more cost effective fuels. If so, what products are recommended?

 

[98dingo]

You most defiantly can change it out. You will have to have that area frame to fit a new appliance. Its a little bit of a surgical operation, but it can be done fairly quick. I have done countless prefab removals and I can usually have it removed, replaced, and the wall wrapped in stone/brick/tile etc. in 2-3 days. As far as brands for replacement... If your going with wood, check into kozy heat and napoleon. Both make good looking appliances at reasonable prices with good performance. I am sure others can chime in with preferences, but, I recommend heading to your local heart shop and finding something YOU like.

 

[Irish916]

Thanks Keith!
I would expect to have to reframe that area to fit the new box, but I'm curious what might have to be done to insulate the area the box lays in. Would that inside area need to be treated? If so, how does it typically get done? Also, can I continue to use my direct vertical venting, or would I need to change that to reconfigure the exhaust?

 

[98dingo]

Thanks Keith!
I would expect to have to reframe that area to fit the new box, but I'm curious what might have to be done to insulate the area the box lays in. Would that inside area need to be treated? If so, how does it typically get done? Also, can I continue to use my direct vertical venting, or would I need to change that to reconfigure the exhaust?

All of the install will be dictated by installation manual of the appliance you purchase. But generally you can insulate inside the cavity as long as all clearances are met AND you make sure any insulation is tied back in a way to prevent it from ever falling on the unit. You can lay up drywall inside, wire mesh, strategically placed lumber, etc.

 

[certified106]

Personally if it was my house I would rip out the propane fireplace and put a freestanding stove that is jacketed with very close clearance to combustibles and hearth requirements of ash/ember protection only which would allow you to keep your hearth cost to a bare minimum, keep the stove tucked back as tightly as possible, as well as giving you a very nice stove to heat your house with. Part of my reasoning behind doing that lies with the fact that the depth of your current fireplace doesn't really look like it would support the depth requirements of most inserts (someone pleas correct me if I am wrong). Also I highly doubt that the flue for your fireplace will support a wood stove/insert unless it's a ZC fireplace of some sort and even that would have to be verified with the installation requirements the stove you decided to go with. Is there another spot in the room or house that would allow you to install a nice freestanding stove and just remove the propane fireplace altogether?

 

[Irish916]

Thanks for your response! I appreciate your perspective.

Unfortunately, this spot is centered in the living room, and with this being a ranch house with a single floor, it's also very centrally located in the house. An ideal spot for a good heat source IMO.

I'd like to explore the options, but the whole free standing stove really doesn't play to the aesthetic I'm looking for in the home. I mean I would just go with a big 'ol Alaskan coal stove and call it good.

I would need a set up that can work within this space- with the whole mantle, etc.(although I'm ok if I have to change it to a stone of some type). I'm ok with a unit that isn't exactly flush with the wall like the existing unit, so long it doesn't consume too much of the existing hearth.

As for the venting, this TEMCO is zero clearance unit running that dual pipe flex aluminum venting up through the attic and through the roof. Since I've had to open up the wall to run HDMI cabling when we moved in, I was able to get a good look at the set up in "the box".

 

[DAKSY]

You can tear that unit out & replace it. If the structure surrounding the current ZC
box is not on an outside wall there is no need to insulate. Most EPA rated ZC
wood burning fireplaces are going to be just that. They can be situated on a plywood floor,
with minimal clearance to the side walls. Again, if everything is internal, you don't even
need sheetrock on the studs. You have to figure out which model you want, get the install
manual & have at it...
The Heat n Glo Northstar is the one I'm most familiar with & that baby is a kick-a$$ heater.
Good luck with your project!

 

[Irish916]

Thanks Daksy!
Yeah, this current propane fireplace is boxed in off the exterior wall (27.75") and did appear to be rocked on the inside. In either case, it sounds like this swap sounds doable. I would absolutely have the professionals do this, even if that means I need to finish up the exterior finishing working (stone/tile, etc). Thanks again for your feedback!

 

[begreen]

:cheese: that's comforting.

What I'm trying to understand is whether or not I can pull this zero clearance box out and put in another box that burns alternative, more cost effective fuels. If so, what products are recommended?

It'll probably be cheaper to install a freestanding stove in it's place and that will give you more heat, more options and heat during a power outage. There are some handsome freestanding stoves out there with a good fireview. You can put it on a stunning hearth and create quite a nice aesthetic.

 

[fossil]

Well...it could get real complicated. The whole dang structure that the current appliance is sitting in is combustible. The OP's flat screen TV is on the wall right atop the mantle. Converting this setup to anything other than a ZC fireplace, I think, would become a real big undertaking from the get-go. Rick

 

[Irish916]

Thanks Fossil, this is the type of feedback I'm getting from a lot of local shops, although they haven't physically come out to see the setup yet. So I guess the question for me is there a zero clearance solution that won't use propane and will push out more heat!?

 

[fossil]

Daksy suggested (above) taking a look at the Heat n Glo Northstar. It's a wood burning fireplace. Someplace to start your research, anyway. Good luck. Rick

 

[Delta-T]

there are a good number of pellet inserts that are designed for relatively easy zc install.

 

[certified106]

Well...it could get real complicated. The whole dang structure that the current appliance is sitting in is combustible. The OP's flat screen TV is on the wall right atop the mantle. Converting this setup to anything other than a ZC fireplace, I think, would become a real big undertaking from the get-go. Rick

Good catch that the tv was on the wall as I didn't even notice that. I doubt it would survive the heat of a freestanding stove let alone the complications of watching the tv around a stove pipe.....lol

 

[madison]

It maybe possible to convert the existing unit from propane to natural gas, will not change the output, but would change the operating cost.

There are higher BTU gas inserts as well.

 

[Don2222]

Thanks Fossil, this is the type of feedback I'm getting from a lot of local shops, although they haven't physically come out to see the setup yet. So I guess the question for me is there a zero clearance solution that won't use propane and will push out more heat!?

Hello Irish916

I have a very similar fireplace. A 30k BTU Heat N Glo SL-550-TRS-D and with the Optional Blower, it belts out the heat! I have a wall thermostat that I set to 70 Degrees and the fireplace easily maintains that! Although with out the blower it would not do Jack!

So do you have the convection blower that comes on when the fireplace heats up automatically?

So it works great when there is a power outage, I just stick in some D Cells for the auto ignition.
Also it would not heat much without the R53 Fiberglass insulation in the attic above!! Do you have any insulation in your ceilings?

It is much better than having dirty wood or many bags of pellets in the living room!

Now do not get me wrong, I have a split entry and the whole house heater is my 2,200 sqft 45,100 BTU pellet stove in the basement! Heating the 2,000 sqft house for the entire winter for only $620 BuckaRues is the best way to go. This way I still have plenty of the $1.90 per gallon propane I bought 2 years ago LOL

So if I were you, I would set a pellet stove in a central location of your house and use that for the real heat!! But make sure you can stack plenty of bags nearby. I have 79 bags next to the pellet stove and another 75 five steps away in the garage!!
Lugging 40 lbs bags is ok as long as it is not too far!!

 

[begreen]

Some freestanding, convective stoves have very little heat radiated from the rear of the stove. I wouldn't rule out a freestander, but it is good for Rick to point out the caveats and considerations when choosing the heat source. If nothing else, a big black pipe covering the middle of a tv screen could be a bit of a distraction.