And yet another Englander not putting out heat

[gordo9742000]

Hello to everyone here. Been lurking around here for a while. This site is a wealth of information and knowledge. I have an Englander 25-pdv with a build date of 7-08. I was wondering what everyone else that had the same stove was putting out for heat out of the front blower. I have a thermometer hanging about 6 inches in front of the stove and I am only reading 105-108 degrees. Also I am going through a full hopper of pellets in approximately 11 -12 hours. I have tried adjusting the settings on the three lower buttons and tried adjusting the slide plate open and closed. I tried calling tech support and the person I talked to didn't seem to believe me. If I play with the settings I can get it up to about 115 but then my burn pot fills with ash and unburned pellets and the glass turns black. It is my second season with it. Didnt run it for the whole season last winter so I really coudnt tune it. Now that it is cold here I want it to put out some heat. I dump the ash twice a day and try to do a thorough vacuum at least every other. Everytime I make sure the back plate is sitting in it tabs. So far I have tried three different brands of pellets with very little difference. Its getting to the point right now that im just gonna shut it off and burn gas. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Jim

 

[imacman]

I was going to suggest that you remove the combustion blower & clean it, and also clean the ash traps & pipe, but that shouldn't be necessary since you basically have a brand new stove that's never been burned.

What heat setting are you using? What brands of pellets? Do you have the OAK connected? What is your vent set-up?

The three lower buttons have no effect on the stove operation when the heat setting is 3 or more.

 

[gordo9742000]

Hello macman. Evan though it is a fairly new stove I did pull it apart to clean and inspect it and everything seemed fine. I have tried all heat settings. I seems a little better around 8 or 9 but just gobbles pellets. When I talked to tech support he told me that the three buttons on the bottom do have an effect on the higher settings contrary to what I have been reading here. I have three tons of potomac pellet that I have been using mostly but have also tried penningtons and another brand that I cant recall right now. Yes I do have an outside air kit hooked up. Vent is out the back of the stove up the wall 6 feet out the foundation the up another 3 feet with a cap.

Thanks Jim

 

[imacman]

Hello macman. Evan though it is a fairly new stove I did pull it apart to clean and inspect it and everything seemed fine. I have tried all heat settings. I seems a little better around 8 or 9 but just gobbles pellets. When I talked to tech support he told me that the three buttons on the bottom do have an effect on the higher settings contrary to what I have been reading here. I have three tons of potomac pellet that I have been using mostly but have also tried penningtons and another brand that I cant recall right now. Yes I do have an outside air kit hooked up. Vent is out the back of the stove up the wall 6 feet out the foundation the up another 3 feet with a cap.

Thanks Jim

Let me get this straight...you have (3) 90 degrees bends in the pipe, plus 9 total vertical feet, plus approx 3-4' of total horizontal flue pipe?

Is all the pipe 3" ?

 

[gordo9742000]

Yes that is all correct.

 

[imacman]

I may have an answer for your problem. Based on what you said, the EVL for your stove is approx 22. Anything over 15 requires that the pipe be increased to 4" at the outlet of the stove.

I think you just don't have enough draft....the comb. blower can't handle all the friction from that set-up.

 

[imacman]

Also, if the OAK length is more than 6' total length, it has to be increased to 3".

 

[gordo9742000]

Just went and measured it. Total is 13 ft. I know its close but still within spec.

 

[imacman]

Just went and measured it. Total is 13 ft. I know its close but still within spec.

OK, you don't know what EVL is then. You CAN'T just measure the length of the pipes. EVL stands for Equivalent Vent Length.

Here's the formula's...calculate it yourself:

Every 90degree bend = 5 EVL
every 45 degree bend = 2.5 EVL
every foot of vertical pipe = .5 EVL
every foot of horizontal pipe = 1 EVL

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You also must make certain that the "horizontal pipe" actually is rising a bit from one end to the other.

On some stoves the oak has to increase yet again if the stove is below grade level. Read the stove installation manual several times as it is easy miss stuff the first couple of times through.

 

[imacman]

......On some stoves the oak has to increase yet again if the stove is below grade level......

I mentioned that in post #6.

 

[littlesmokey]

One other point. Re-set your stove to the manufacturer's recommended settings. If after doing all this you need to reset the stove, call ESW and have them walk you through the settings. Those buttons do more than one thing. Last item is stove temp. These are not wood stoves and should not be 500-600 degrees output. They do vary in output at certain points, depending on how the room fan and vents are arranged. One of my stoves use heat tubes only and there is a concentration of heat at their outlet, but no air from sides or below the stove, except one outlet. Measuring the output temp is relatively meaningless, you need to make the burn as efficient as possible and let the stoves blowers circulate the air and heat.

 

[imacman]

macman, good thinking but i would question one thing first. is the flame lazy or does it look normal? gordo, can you post a picture of the stoves flame and let us know what setting the stove is running at during the pictures?

for you to be getting such low output temps something had got to be wrong here. i have the pdvc and i've measured 225f with the stove set on 2 and the room air blower on 9. check the screen on your oak too. the screen is on the outside of the house right on the beginning of the pipe. i have to hit mine periodically with compressed air to clear up the little holes otherwise they get plugged with outside stuff like dust and pollen etc.

the pic of the flame should tell us a lot. if its a normal looking flame then i dunno what to say, possible theres too much combustion air and exhausting all your heat before it can be transferred to the room, but this would make your exhaust pipe abnormally hot. is it?

deffy, did you see the posts above about his EVL? It's upward of 22, and he's got 3" pipe! IMO, I don't care how clean the OAK is, if the exhaust can't get out, no air is coming in.

 

[Dougsey]

Maybe try removing the last 90 and vertical rise in the vent to see if that helps?

 

[gordo9742000]

Will post pictures of the flame tonight when I get home from work. When I first light it off the flame looks active and about 6-7 inches tall with heat and fan set at 5-5. OAK is a 3 inch kit and is clean. Settings are set at factory 6-4-1 and the slide plate is put back to the original position. I understand that it is not a woodstove and wont reach the high temps but I beleive it should be warmer than it is. I know all stove are different but I have a friend down the street with the exact same stove in a drafty old garage. He is running a 3 inch vent kit and his output is close to 250 degrees and has to keep the window open to let heat out. My stove is getting hot but is seems that the blower isnt extracting it for some reasons. Not much hair left to pull out.

Thanks Jim

 

[MCPO]

I hesitate to ask such a simple question but it`s one that I have experienced. Are you sure that your distribution blower working?
There should plenty of hot air blowing out from the front of the stove.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

......On some stoves the oak has to increase yet again if the stove is below grade level......

I mentioned that in post #6.

Not quite the same macman, below grade installs add complicating factors beyond simple OAK length.
The OP can depending upon local conditions at his stack have a case where the heat is being drafted out of the stove at a higher rate than the combustion fan alone would cause resulting in substantial heat loss. While this is a possibility it would be a fair low probability.

I'm going to wait until I see some pics and we know that the convection fan actually is running.

A marginal convection fan (or one that isn't seeing the correct voltage due to control board issues) can also result in low heat output.

It is also possible that the distribution air paths are blocked (partially).

 

[imacman]

i did but hes not that much over. im sure increasing to 4" wont hurt him, just that i was wondering how it was actually performing flamewise. his setup might actually work semi ok when completely clean but add some soot into the mix after say a half ton then much less air is going through.

His EVL is AT LEAST 22 or more.....that's not much over???? It's WAY over for 3" pipe, IMO.

Yes, it MIGHT work "semi-OK", but again as you mentioned yourself......what about when it gets a little soot in all those bends & horizontal runs?

 

[Scooby123]

Hey Guys,

I am reading these posts and I have a similar problem with my Brand New Englander 55-SHPEP. I converted this freestanding unit to an insert, and installed per the manufacturers specs. I used my previous wood stove 6" vent stack up the chimney and I added a 3" intake line. No matter what setting I have the stove on (1-5) my room does not get hotter than 66. I have a very good flame and does increase with each burn rate, and I am going through pellets fast. Not sure if there is a factory preset problem or if I bought a lemon.....

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Hey Guys,

I am reading these posts and I have a similar problem with my Brand New Englander 55-SHPEP. I converted this freestanding unit to an insert, and installed per the manufacturers specs. I used my previous wood stove 6" vent stack up the chimney and I added a 3" intake line. No matter what setting I have the stove on (1-5) my room does not get hotter than 66. I have a very good flame and does increase with each burn rate, and I am going through pellets fast. Not sure if there is a factory preset problem or if I bought a lemon.....

Is the convection blower running at proper speeds ..... is the air path for the heat exchanger free of all blockages, this includes the intake for the blower. If there is an impingement plate is it properly seated?

 

[Scooby123]

The blower seems to be working fine. I am getting air blowing out of the front of the unit, but it is warm (not hot) at best.I just installed the air line this week and checked for blockage. I have only used two bags of pellets in the unit and has been like this from first fire.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The blower seems to be working fine. I am getting air blowing out of the front of the unit, but it is warm (not hot) at best.I just installed the air line this week and checked for blockage. I have only used two bags of pellets in the unit and has been like this from first fire.

You have the stove on burn rate 1 and blower rate 5 ? Is that what you are saying?

If so the reason why you aren't getting hot air out the front is that you are removing the heat from the exchanger at a fairly high rate.

Try a blower rate equal to or one higher than the burn rate. That burn rate one is also affected by the lower three buttons on the controller.

You might want to talk to Mike Holton at England Stove Works or call ESW's technical group.
Mike is also a member here send him a PM, stoveguy2esw is his handle.

Sounds like a few things might be fouled up on heat setting one.

 

[Scooby123]

No, I always have the burn rate and blower on the same speed. I read that the three buttons on the bottom are preset, and I did try setting them different. Thanks for advice. I will call them tomorrow, I am hoping it is something easy as far as the control panel.

Thanks again

 

[webbie]

Although this seems obvious, it bears repeating.

Always keep in mind the conservation of energy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

That is, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it must go somewhere!

So, when you look at a particular problem, consider that if pellets are burning.....in any semi-normal fashion (not horribly smoking or creating tars), then most of the energy inside them is being released. Ask yourself then - where can it go?

To my simple way of thinking, it can go one of two places - either up the stack or into the room.

Using output temperatures of air i an extremely poor way, IMHO, of judging a stove....because the output temps rely very heavily on the input temps. Also, every stove produces heat in different ways - some with radiant heat, some with less air that is warmer, and some with more air that is relatively cooler. Even 100 degree air means it may be heated up 40 degrees from the 60 degree input air at floor level behind the stove.

Yes, improper venting can hurt a pellet stove - BUT, the RESULT of that venting still has to cause something that is still subject to the Laws of Conservation....that is, it often makes a stove not able to burn through the pellets as quickly....or makes it not burn the pellets as well (smoke, etc.)......

Again, it seems obvious, but if the pellets are being burnt and if you are not getting smoke out...then heat is being created. Where it is going is another matter (the matter of heat transfer efficiency).

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Yup, Craig, which is why I mentioned it here

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/528455/

for the original poster

and I also mentioned making certain that any impingement plates were clean and in place.

That was in addition to looking for a blockage in the heat exchanger air path and intake. That fan may be turning its little heart out but not moving any real amount of air.


I was told by at least one member that I was full of it when I mentioned that not all central heating systems were as efficient as they might test out to be or you think they are. Heat loss can occur in the strangest way. The best one I'm aware of is straight up the flue ;-) .