Any electricians on the forum?

[colebrookman]

Remodeling, electrician changed wiring to underground from pole, new service and meter, new 100amp panel, new copper ground laid in new cement foundation. Problem, now when we get a storm with lightning we get a loud snapping sound at the panel or at one or two outlets when lightning hits. Doesn't seem right. Is that normal for new equipment? Many thanks in advance for any ideas. Be safe.
Ed

 

[jimbom]

I presume you gave the electrician who installed this the first shot at fixing the problem. Any info from that contact?

 

[colebrookman]

No I haven't yet. I was hoping to get some ideas before contacting him.
Ed

 

[Ncountry]

I would guess that the service is not properly grounded. I am fairly certain an electrical entrance needs to be grounded with two 8' rods buried in the ground vertically or horizontally at least 2.5' under ground. Connected with a continuous loop of grounding wire back to the entrance . I have installed a few over the years but not enough that I don't have to ask the insp. or check the codes again.

 

[jimbom]

I am not a licensed electrician. So many possible trouble shooting avenues. It is hard to give suggestions. If you are in town and other homes are fed from your service transformer, you could ask if the others are having surge problems. If not, it is isolated to your new service. If he used service-entrance cable, I presume the braided neutral was connected properly at the transformer and the service entrance. I presume the grounded neutral at the service transformer still has an intact ground connection. If the metallic water service is still connected to the service panel ground and the new ground in the concrete is installed properly, you should have good grounding. If you are in a super drought situation, your grounds may be dry. They work better in moist soil.

If the grounding is good, the next step might be surge protection. I put surge arresters on my entrance due to the remote location of my home on the electrical distribution system. I have had no problems in 20 or so years. The kind I bought are normally used on residential water wells. These days, they probably have many good choices on the market. Surge protectors need a well grounded system to work properly.

My experience is a decent electrician will want to make sure his work is safe and conforming. Giving him a chance to work this problem may lead to a resolution.

 

[Later]

Never heard of a ground system imbedded in concrete foundation. We had a new ground system put in a few years ago after a severed neutral in a buried cable. The electrician put in what he called a ground plane consisting of 2 copper rods driven about 5' down and tied together bonded to the service panel.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

I would also be checking the ground cable & grounding rods/plate. If they are dry in the ground or a connection was broken that would explain the surge you describe during an electrical storm. Just an FYI you can purchase & install/hire out install of a whole home GFI, it attaches to your main house panel & protects everything after that point against a surge. Pricey but far cheaper than replacing all the electronics in your home in the event of a lightning strike/large power surge. FWIW I have the electrician install one on every house I build, major reno's as well. Carpenter not an electrican so everything with a grain of salt.

 

[colebrookman]

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions. They tell me embedding in concrete is fairly new to code when adding on. I use surge protectors which saved my computer many times but you right Frozen Canuck I may have to go to a whole house GFI. I'm a couple generations removed Canuck of the stubborn clan but in this case I'll have to do something. That snapping from the panel or outlets at three in the morning is a little unsettling. Again many thanks guys.
Ed

 

[pybyr]

Including a ground within concrete is something called an "Ufer ground" and has been used in military and broadcast installations for decades-- and you have little to lose and something to gain by it, although I would not rely upon it as the one and only ground

http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm

I would add at least two ground rods- separated by at least as far apart as they are long, and use the fattest copper cable you can get your hands on to connect them to each other and to the electrical panel, locating the rods for the shortest run possible between the rods and the panel. Lightning is a form of pulse that does not behave anything like DC or power frequency AC power, and long runs to ground have strange and defeating effects on the grounding. If you really want to go overkill, get some things called "cadwelds" to attach your cable to the ground rod- goodbye corrosion and its negative effects on ground connection.

My house had all sorts of bizzare phenomena due to bad grounding when I bought it- but I read up on this stuff and drove a stake through it. Had a direct lightning hit 30 feet from the front of the house in May and lost nothing except a wireless router.

 

[colebrookman]

Thanks pybyr I'll add that to my talking points when I see my electrician. Checked out the cadwells on you tube. Really interesting. Ed

 

[Gary_602z]

I would also be checking the ground cable & grounding rods/plate. If they are dry in the ground or a connection was broken that would explain the surge you describe during an electrical storm. Just an FYI you can purchase & install/hire out install of a whole home GFI, it attaches to your main house panel & protects everything after that point against a surge. Pricey but far cheaper than replacing all the electronics in your home in the event of a lightning strike/large power surge. FWIW I have the electrician install one on every house I build, major reno's as well. Carpenter not an electrican so everything with a grain of salt.

A GFI is not going to protect against a surge, it is a ground fault interrupt nothing to do with voltage surges.

Gary

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Your correct Gary. I incorrectly named that, it is a surge protector for the main panel.

 

[fbelec]

ed if you have a bad ground in your home and lightning is coming in, i don't care what you put in it will get destroyed. if your house is new you must have arc fault circuit breaker installed in your panel. how are they working? if you have a ufer ground you should be ok the ground at the footing where the point of attachment is should be low enough in the ground to be wet. i would first talk to your electrician and if he has no idea call the town inspector of wires. if he has no idea call the state inspector. they will be the people that get the power company to move. you might find in the end that you have the best ground in the area, and they prob have a bad transformer or ground at the transformer. as far as hearing a snap at your outlets, you will have to get someone if not your electrician with a meter we call a megger. your circuits that are snapping prob have bad wire by now. you might need to rewire. you should be considering those circuits to be until tested unsafe. if you have arc fault circuit breaker installed on those circuit you might be ok safety wise as far as a fire goes. they should trip if the circuit really gets bad. the snap in your panel might be as simple as the screw that bonds your neutral bar to your panel might be loose or missing. and that could be the whole issue. the lightning is coming in to your house and finding it's way to the water line for a easy way to earth ground. as you can see there are many different possibilitys to your problem. for the fix i'd have to be there to troubleshoot it personally. but what i can tell you is don't drag your feet on this one. usually when a house gets hit by lightning the electrical inspector will tell you to keep everything turned off until you get someone with a megger (or as we say up here in mass a megga) in the house to check every circuit before it is powered up.
i'm a master electrician in mass for 25 years
tell us how you make out

good luck
frank

 

[westom]

Problem, now when we get a storm with lightning we get a loud snapping sound at the panel or at one or two outlets when lightning hits. Doesn't seem right.

Lightning does damage to a structure because it seeks earth ground via an electrical conductor - wood. Lightning does damage to appliances because it seeks earth ground via an electrical conductor - appliances. Neither is a superior conductor - therefore damage results.

You protect all by connecting lightning to earth before it can enter the structure or appliance.

A lightning strike to wires down the street is connected to all household appliances if not earthed at the service entrance. What would that noise be? All but one AC electric wire is not earthed. A best path to earth could be arcing from the those wires to a now superior earthed breaker box. As Pyro Extraordinaire so accurately noted, you now have a best earth ground. So surges may be arcing from hot wires (that are not yet earthed) to that earth ground.

Fix arcing by separating wires. Then a surge may hunt for earth via your appliances. Connect that surge harmlessly to earth via a 'whole house' protector. Then no more arcing and no threats to appliances. Then all AC electric wires are earthed.

The electrician may find burn marks where arcing was occurring.

Each layer of protection is only defined by earthing of every wire (including telephone and cable TV). Your secondary protection system now has superior earthing electrode – an ufer ground. But the primary protection system may be compromised. Also inspect primary protection installed by your utility. A picture demonstrates what to inspect. Arcing suggest your primary protection system has been compromised:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Arc fault or GFCI breakers do nothing to avert surges that always existed and now are finding a better path to earth via superior earthing.

 

[colebrookman]

Thank you Westom. While this just started during our last storm, I've had the new panel through other storms and had few problems except frying my answering machine. We do seem to have some good lightning strikes up here in the woods. Last year we lost a very large maple near the house to lightning and you can sometime hear the snapping outside but we've been here for almost twenty years with few problems, as I've said. We did have power lines on the poles come down fairly often recently, poles pushed over etc. That probably, as you noted, is more likely the cause and not the new panel. FYI, I just pulled the panel cover, no sign of arcing, also no sign at the outlet but this was only one time. We shall see during our next lightning storm. I'll check on your suggestion for a "whole house protector". I think storms are getting a lot more violent and damage to the power supply systems will only get worst. Thanks for the great feedback, the pics were something else!
Ed

 

[westom]

I'll check on your suggestion for a "whole house protector". I think storms are getting a lot more violent and damage to the power supply systems will only get worst.

Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. A number that can vary even within a town. A number even affected by geology.

Due to superior protection already inside appliances, then most surges are really nothing more than noise.

If your snapping is due to arcing, well, appreciate how many transients are irrelevant. Your concern is the rare transient that can overwhelm appliance protection. Lightning is a typical example. Others are created by other anomalies including utility switching and stray cars.

 

[colebrookman]

Just ordered a SquareD "Whole house surge protector" from Amazon. Thanks to everyone for the terrific help and for educating me on the problems and many causes regarding power surges. I'll let you know how we make out here in the woods of western Ma. Be safe.
Ed

 

[burnham]

Do you have a well, or is it town water? If you have town water, is the service plastic or copper?

 

[colebrookman]

We have a well 125ft. down. I know because we had to pull the line to replace a burned out pump motor when we bought the place. We were so excited when the new pump worked only to find that no one had drained the pipes in the house. New England winters get mighty cold; the start of our fixer upper projects that will only end when I do. lol
Ed

 

[Later]

Any resolution?

 

[colebrookman]

I'm waiting for my whole house surge protector from Amazon. I'll keep you informed. Course we'll need a good lightning storm to test it out. Meanwhile we still keep losing power as the trees hit the wires. Just not out for long so I don't need the generator. Be safe.
Ed

 

[fbelec]

ed
hopefully the protector you have coming has the lights on the side of it to let you know that it is working or not. from the sound of what is happening at your house that protector might only last one hit. all the units that i have seen have a life of so many hits of a certain size and they're all done. have you talked with your electrician yet?

 

[colebrookman]

Not yet fbelec. I've got a call in to our town electrical inspector but , as you know, they are busy people. I wasn't very happy with the electrician, would not use him again but that's another story. That's why I went to the whole house which seemed to be a good first step. We still have lines going down and poles that need straightening which leads me to think as others mentioned that it may be a WMEC problem. I'll let everyone know the results. Many thanks. Be safe.
Ed

 

[Later]

If you weren't having the problem before the electrical work I would suspect that the electrician's work was the issue.

 

[colebrookman]

Could be, but the inspector is really sharp and we've never had this many power outages, trees and poles down. I'm sure our ground is much better than are old one circa 1954. We do have a gorgeous old maple tree near the house that got zapped last year, great firewood, but the storms seem to be getting stronger. We shall see. Thanks for the feedback. Be safe.
Ed