Anyone else hate burning wood? Need help with some numbers...

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deerefanatic

Minister of Fire
Apr 6, 2008
676
Ladysmith, WI
Ok guys. Confession time....... I HATE burning wood..... And wood gasification systems almost as much.......

As many of you know, I built my own gasification boiler. Things went well until about mid-to-late December.... Then, due to the fact that the firebox of the stove is not water jacketed, the stove warped and most of the refractory and such cracked. Now my secondary airflows are entirely messed up and my secondary combustion it mostly non existent. My lower chamber temps average int eh 1150F range vs the 1600 - 1700 range before, plus even when the stove is running fairly well, there is a wisp of smoke still visible.... But, this is also burning standing dead that we've fallen, which has got to have pretty hi moisture content.

The winter started with 1 10 cord semi load of slabwood. That was gone by the end of December. Since then, we've bought 4 pickup loads of cut and split wood and brought up at least 10-12 pickup loads of wood that was in our woods and our neighbor's woods. And we're currently waiting on the chainsaw to get fixed because we need more!!

Now, this winter was a little colder than average because even the seasoned wood burners around here like my 70 year old neighbor are complaining about wood consumption.. But this consumption is JUST to heat our HOUSE..... After a few weeks of trying to heat my shop, I gave up and blew the water out of the lines....

All in all, I'm sorry I messed with wood gasification. I'm still spending all my spare time cutting wood, and then spending several hours a day getting fires started in the gasifier morning and night; and feeding it every 1.5 hours or so throughout the day.. (Actually, my mom ends up doing it as I work during the day)...... I'm beginning to wish I'd just gotten an OWB that stays lit 24/7 and will hold 10-12 hours on a filling..... Cant be much worse than my wood consumption already, and I wouldn't have to split stuff so small either......

What I'm wanting to do at this point is get rid of the wood burning stuff and go to a coal stoker. I can get a used 300k BTU Keystoker Anthracite Coal Stoker boiler for $3k from a guy in good working condition. Anthracite coal delivered in bags from Pennsylvania is $278/ton...... The only thing is I know if I go this route, my folks (this is their place, I just live with them) already said they can't afford to buy coal when my dad and I can cut wood for free... So I need to carefully figure how much coal I'll need so that I know what the heating bill will be before I pull the trigger.... As it is, we are entirely tied down. We can't go visit family or anything during heating season because this wood system is such a pain, that even we have a tough time getting it to heat the place, let alone having a neighbor come over and stoke it. Whereas, with an OWB or a coal boiler, the fire stays lit all the time, and it just a matter of hauling away the ashes and either throwing wood in the firebox or dumping coal into the hopper....

I'm figuring with the way my gasifier was acting, that I doubt I was breaking out of the 40% range if I was lucky, due to the smoking and such... Plus, even with the heavy insulation, it does throw off plenty of heat from the sides/top...... The coal boiler I mentioned above is an 85% efficiency unit.......

I did a heatloss analysis on the house with the SlantFin program. Being that our windows are triple pain, but seal failed, I counted them as single pain windows. I put in 2" of insulation for the walls and 6" for the roof. At -10F outdoor temperature, the heatloss is 58,000 btu/hr....... Which, when I did the rough math in my head on my wood consumption x my guesstimated efficiency, I came up with 50-60k btu/hr. Then I did the heatloss and got 58K.

So, guessing that the 10 cords of slabwood are equal to 8 cords of log wood, and that we've collected at least another 5 cord (we've bought 1.3 cord alone) that's 13 cords of wood so far since the beginning of heating season........ :O

Just looking for feedback Thanks guys!
 
Matt - sorry to hear about your project woes.

I know guys with OWB's that have burned more than 13 cords this year because of the low temps.

It sounds like you need to get some new boiler regardless. I hate to see anyone burn coal who has access to free wood. With true gasification and storage correctly sized you should be able to get the wood consumption way down and get more flexibility in when you fire it. Before storage my wife had to do an afternoon fill of the Tarm during the coldest months to keep heat consistent. With storage now, I do all the firing when I have the time. You seam like a handy guy. Installing a gasifier and making your own storage should be well within your abilities. Good luck.
 
If your gasifier is actually working as a gasifier, an OWB won't help your woes.

Slabwood is a pretty poor fuel to burn, I heated for 2 winters on it. Our 500 ft2 apartment consumed about 6 cord of softwood slabwood in a woodstove.

Have you considered getting a manufactured boiler? You are probably burning twice the wood you should be.
 
I might hate burning wood if I used that much too. Yikes.

It's not uncommon for people with older OWB's to burn between 12 and 15 cord for an average sized home... but it kind of sounds like you have alot going against you... a boiler that isn't functioning properly, wood that might not actually be dry, wood that is comprised mostly of sapwood-not heartwood, and I don't know much about your system as far as transfer efficiency or insulation value of the boiler/piping. With a 50k Btu heat load calc, I wouldn't think you should go through more than 5 cord or 6 max with a decent gasifier setup. I would actually guess more like 4 using a good system and storage.

I woudn't give up just yet.

cheers
 
Sorry to hear about your problems. It's hard to believe just how much goes into something that looks as simple as a gasifier. Even my small-scale experiments with alternate secondary chamber flame baffles showed me just how much I don't know about refractory materials.

Maybe we need another sticky about 'things you should know before building your own gasifier'.
 
My friend has two houses hooked up to one OWB. One house is 15 years old and well built/insulated, the other is a 4 year old modular. He burns 30 cords of wood per year heating both. If you've never seen 30 cords of treelength firewood it is something to behold.

I'll stick with my 25 year old Memco and 9-10 cords a year, thank you.
 
Other Wisconsin guys chat about using coal and how to get it here from there

Me for one in the past....

With the availability of pellet fuel in Wis and the cost difference - so far - a Harmon or a Traeger in the basement burning corn - pellets or a mix -(dependent on the appliance you install) might be worth a look vs coal.

Still -- if you can get a fine machine like that -- for that --

I would say its a slam dunk -- buy it before I can !!!!!

one issue will be its way over sized and it will idle fire a lot -- that's not efficient use of a coal boiler -- but coal is really nice to use.
 
Matt I know just what you mean about wood consumption and I live in central Illinois. I thought I wanted an OWB but last year I went through about 15 cord and this year up to the 3rd week of January I burned about 13 cord plus a ton and a half of bituminous coal. So I don't the think the OWB will fix your problem. I had had enough so I bought an inside boiler and my consumption dropped drastically, plus it has shaker grates and under the fire draft so I can burn coal too. This might not be right for you but the unit I bought was 4000 bucks and rated for 160000 btu, I do have to do middle of the night loading in this cold weather, once it stays above 35 or so I don't think I will have to load at night. If you go over to the anthracite forum and ask, those guys can really nail down the numbers for you. They are a pretty friendly bunch over there, I have asked a few questions and they bend over backwards to try to answer whatever question you have.
 
Matt- wondered why we hadn't seen you 'round the Boiler Room for some time.

Regret to hear of your headaches.

Wasn't your homemade gasifier built from remnants of an OWB?

If you have a shop that you heat, what about putting a Garn in there, or in a new "annex" to it?

That'd give you efficiency plus some ability to get away

The way I look at it, if you have wood you can cut yourself, then it's not just what it's costing or saving at any given point, it is being free from the rollercoaster of the energy commodities markets. Even though oil this winter is about 1/2 of the predictions from last summer, I am just glad to be rid of it, and rid of the worry of what it will do. And lots of the energy prices tend to follow one another- so if oil rockets back up, coal will probably, to some extent, follow, because many of the very large users have the ability to switch between them (so if oil costs go way up, coal use will go up, and with the increased demand will probably come increased prices).

With all the skills you developed working on and with your homemade gasifier, installing a commercial downdraft (you've already got storage and controls and pumps, right?) or a Garn should come easy for you. Then you've got reliability and efficiency and are still off the energy commodity boom/ bust cycle.
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles Matt. At 275.00 a ton I believe its cheaper to burn oil. You have no interest in a gasifier, I mean you already have the storage tank. Brian
 
Matt, you need 24" of fiberglass insulation in the attic, or 16" of cellulose. 2" in the walls are not enough unless it's foam. This is the first thing you should do is make sure you are well insulated. This winter I pushed up snow against my house till it was 4' high. This stops almost all the draft going into the basement and makes a big difference. Also, 58k heat loss isn't much at all @ -10. My new house came up with 64k heat loss and I have 9' ceilings w/ r60 in the ceiling with 3" foam in the walls. This gives me r 21 in the walls. I live in farm country and it's wide open 20 mi. south of Fondulac just east of the windmills.
 
Matt, I swear to date I've only burned 2.5 cord of seasoned 20" hardwood. My thermostat has been set at 64 degrees all winter. I've gone 35 hours and more between burns. It just does not get any easier. When it was real cold below zero I'd have one fire a day. Now it seems like I can go for several days between fires. If you have free wood you'd be crazy to buy a coal boiler. Spend your money on a good gassifier and storage. sweetheat
 
Ok...... Boy I knew this would be a hot topic! :) I'll try and address everything that's been mentioned here........

First, my house DOES have more insulation than the 2" in the walls and 6" in the ceilings... It was re-insulated by a local government agency because of my folks' low income status (they're farmers). But afterward, we were told that they are notorious for overdoing the cellulose and packing it too tight which reduces the insulating value.... So I did the 2" just as a worst case scenario.......

Coal price: Actually, $278 coal is equivalent to 1.50 oil or .98 propane..... So cheaper than current prices... I know the 300k btu coal boiler is oversize.... I could also snag some 160,000 units too, which would be barely big enough worse-case, but since it would be a coal stoker with a large hopper, I'm not worried about pounding the boiler wide open for long periods..... Also, on the price of coal, it would be anthracite (hard) coal which is not used very much for industrial uses... the only cost of anthracite that follows petroleum is the trucking cost....

Yes, I most certainly am able to install a commercially built boiler.. Being I built mine from scratch (a thing I'll never try again....)

I do currently have 1150 gallons of storage in place.. Without it I'd be in even worse problems.........

The problem with buying a commercial gassifier is multifold:

1. Cost, I just simply don't have $7k to drop on a boiler....... Therefore, as much as I'd like one, a Garn is out...... Whatever I end up with, it's gonna have to be used.......
2. Dry wood, I can barely supply wood now, I don't see how I can ever get enough up to let it season.......

Really, I'm not looking at an OWB to lower my wood consumption, I'm just looking for something big so that I can have fire 24/7 and not have to be tending it constantly........ I frankly am sick of starting fires........ The propane ignition of the E-Classic is looking real good right now......

Well, that's everything..... Thanks for all the feedback guys.... It makes for good conversation and the ability to get a different perspective......
 
deerefanatic said:
Also, on the price of coal, it would be anthracite (hard) coal which is not used very much for industrial uses... the only cost of anthracite that follows petroleum is the trucking cost....

Dry wood, I can barely supply wood now, I don't see how I can ever get enough up to let it season.......

Matt-- not to seem argumentative, but a couple of thoughts.

A few years ago, I took my son on a road trip to NE PA- anthracite country- to see some interesting stuff. Took a tour of a former mine, guided by a retired miner- in his '60s (any day you think you are having bad day, just be glad that you don't work in a shaft coal mine!). I mentioned to him that I assumed that there was little demand for the anthracite these days, given its immensely decreased use in recent decades. He said that actually, huge amounts were being mined and sent to China- apparently, he said, when the cargo ships come over with the various consumer goods, it makes no sense for them to go back empty, so back they go with loads of USA hard coal. I knew that Chinese industry relied heavily on coal, never would have guessed that any substantial portion was USA anthracite. He seemed like a pretty informed person. Of course, the the "economic conditions" there's probably less consumer stuff coming from China and less coal going back there.

On wood, can you get Ash near you? It is relatively dry when cut, and seasons fast. Other species are close runners-up; get the best stuff you can, based on this, and try to start working to get ahead:
see
http://www.mountainfirewoodkilns.com/firewood_ratings.pdf
see especially the second half that talks about "what if I have to burn green wood"

best wishes in getting up and out of what sounds like a discouraging situation
 
I've bought most of my wood for some time now. Don't own a wood lot currently. My time is worth more than the cost of the wood. But the heat is better and it remains cheaper than oil, even buying it. If it weren't there wouldn't be any point to it. That said, since I put in the wood boiler, I've burned more coal in it than wood. It's easier, burns longer, hotter, and more stable, than wood. No creosote, no smoke, and long burn times. Ooops... I said long burn times twice...

I can fit huge amounts of heat into a much smaller and neater space than with wood.

I burned more wood in the insert in the living room fireplace than in the boiler. It's conventional wood/coal water jacket boiler, and as such tends toward making some smoke and creosote, although since I put in the barometric damper it did tame it down some in that regard. Wouldn't have even tried coal if I hadn't gotten a ton or so "free for the taking". Once I got used to burning it, I was amazed at the ability of it to make heat for a long time. Never seen anything like it in all the time I burned wood.
 
Considering some storage to go with it in the distant future... might make it much easier to use and prolong my heat output.

Late winter/early spring appears to be "snowy and cold" so far.
 
Deerefanatic,
To answer your question about hating to burn wood. I was at that point with the wood furnace I had. All that handling of the wood before it got into the furnace and the frequent loading to keep the house warm. To top it off the wood furnace wasn't as productive as it was "claimed" to be and my oil furnace would kick in to cover the lack in hard weather. My house is old and I don't have any insulation in the walls in the original structure. My home isn't big 1700' including the unfinished basement but it seemed the appetite of the stove made made me a slave. I don't have storage at this point and I have a water heat exchanger in the oil furnace which is the least efficient use for hot water to heat the home. Even with my set up my wood consumption is not over 5 full cords. The boiler I have is larger than my heating needs so it idles. With oak and red elm my shortest burn has been 8 hours and that was in the the extreme of a -0 cold blast and 40 mph winds. I wanted to go to a shelled corn burner (for ease of loading for my wife) but she thought I needed to throw wood. She won. However I am looking at doing whole ear corn in my boiler. There is a lot of heat in corn (around 98 million btu per x per acre) and since your folks are farmers maybe you should look at something that would help them use their vocation to supplement heating their home. Corn is usually at 15-20% moisture. My wife is still able to throw a chunk of wood but one day she might think throwing corn isn't so bad. Check this link for a used boiler I don't know anything about them but it is listed here in the forum https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/35834/ . I use an EKO40 gasifier and now I don't mind throwing wood. That's a complete turn around for me but I took out a second mortgage to get the boiler and the payments are less than what oil would cost me for heat. That might be an option. Wish the best for you and your family.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

I know about the longer burn times with coal...... That's what makes me want to go that route.. Preaching to the choir on that one! :)

I suppose I could be happy with a commercial gasifier, but I definitely won't go in debt for one... As it is, the mortgage on the farm is killing us, the faster it's paid off, the better.... One thing I learned is that bankers (at least farm lenders) are like many lawyers, sub-human (no offense to you trevor!!! :) )

Corn..... Well, our corn never got below 23% this year. Everyone had to pay to have it dried..... Corn is just to volatile in price and burn ability for me to want to screw with it...... Otherwise it'd be great.... Wood pellets are also out.... Heck, they're so expensive, that given the efficiency of a pellet burner vs our hi efficiency (tested at 97%) propane furnace, propane is the same or just slightly more......

It looks like for me, it comes down to 2 options:

1: Get an Eko or Econoburn in the 160k btu range.
2: Get a coal stoker boiler in about the same range.

With the coal boiler, I can sell my heat storage system and probably get most the money I'd need for the boiler. (1250 gallon milk tank, 304 stainless with stainless fittings, custom fit black pipe, 2 grundfos 15-58 pumps, 70 plate stainless heat exchanger, fresh water inlet valve and air purging valves and bleeds, and wye strainers and misc valving)
 
Matt: IMHO keep the stainless storage and hook up to a EKO or Econoburn. Start splitting your free wood, and try to get ahead. Once ahead don't get behind. This spring I'll stack purchased wood that won't get burned until 2011. I'm thinking about purchasing a small wood lot. sweetheat
 
I don't know what the availability of bituminous coal is in your area but over on the coal forum I read where some guys in Wisconsin found some they could get trucked in. It's not as good as anthracite but it's a whole lot cheaper. I found some in central Illinois that went for $53 a ton, it wasn't very good stuff so a guy on the coal forum hooked me up with an Indiana mine that had better coal and it was only $48 a ton. Don't know what you have up there, just a suggestion, maybe something to look into.
 
deerefanatic said:
One thing I learned is that bankers (at least farm lenders) are like many lawyers, sub-human (no offense to you trevor!!! :) )

Matt- thanks for considering me an exception; I am aware of the low repute of my line of work, and as a result take it for a compliment, in various settings, when I seem to be mistaken for something else (most recently/ often, seems to be a plumber or engineer)
 
sorry to hear about your troubles,try talking to gary switzer in dundee new york he may be able to build you a small boiler and you could use your existing boiler as a storage tank as you probably have a fair amount invested in it already.You are loading your boiler every 1.5 hrs?,are you ever getting up to 180 or 200 deg?I burn about a wheelbarrow load every day in my 1250 switzer in about 2hrs every day and that heats my large house for 20 hours or so on a cold day and domestic water,it is in my basement.If you are looking to lower your wood usage I would not consider an outdoor boiler of any type and the payoff for buying a boiler to burn a fuel you have to buy and handle may not be worth it.Even a large wood stove like an osburn 2400 would be an option
 
Matt,

Sorry to hear about your frustrating experience.

The gasification boilers and the Pyrolysis process are much more complicated than they appear (I actually have a 50+ page scientific study on the theories of the combustion of wood and its control).

I installed an EKO boiler last fall and started the winter with 5 pulp cord (14.2 face cord) of hard maple that I purchased last spring for $350.00.

We are approx. 2/3 of the way through a very, very cold northern Michigan winter and I have approx. 3-4 face cord left and thus should be just fine for the remainder of the winter.

With regards to the constant loading of wood into the boiler and not being able to leave home, I have a much different story.

In fact, I left northern Michigan this past Thursday at 1:00 PM and headed for Grand Rapids to see DAVE RAMSEY's LIVE EVENT!!!! Before I left I filled up my EKO with wood (and when the fire went out around 7 PM Thursday night my 1,000 gallons of storage was at 180 F) and when I returned this morning (Sat) at 1:00 am my house was at 67 F and the 1,000 gallons was at 100 F). Thus, I was gone from the house for a total of 36 hours, the temperature was in the teens on Thursday and Friday and last night it was down to 4 F and my 2,500 sq. ft house only dropped from 73 t 67.5 F.

I would have to say that this is EXTREMELY GOOD with regards to wood boilers and that there is absolutely no OWB that could accomplish the same task!!!!

I have been so impressed with my EKO system that I am now a dealer for them and all related equipment including HX's, valves, fittings, storage tanks ect. (www.upnorthenergy.com).

If anyone who is reading these posts are interested in learning more about the wood gasification boiler system and its related components please contact me via. my website or call me at 888-536-2313.

NWM
 
Hi Matt, so sorry to hear about all of your troubles. Your heart and head are in the right place, don't give up!

As I understand your situation, you cannot afford a new wood gasifier and are not able or willing to take out a home equity loan. Unfortunately, a pretty common story - those who need protection from high energy costs and could benefit the most from a great wood-fired heating system, are the least able to afford the best solutions.

Give your situation, I really think you should consider a woodstove. Heresy on this forum, I know! ;) I don't know of a more cost effective way to get a reasonably efficient appliance, take good advantage of your local wood source and dramatically reduce your use of fossil fuel. You can even find pretty good used ones without having to look too far. A wood gasifier is the cleanest, most efficient way to burn wood. It will offer an excellent payback and the most comfort. It is also one of the most expensive options and simply not a realistic choice for many, many people.

The stimulus package signed last week includes a 30% tax credit (up to $1500.00) for a residential biomass burning appliance installation. There may be additional incentives (rebates) or low interest loans from your state. Combine this with a spring discount the manufacturer and MAYBE you can pull off a new boiler after all. If not, a woodstove is certainly worth considering.

good luck and keep us posted,

Chris
 
Just to clarify a point I wasn't talking about shelled corn but ear or cob corn even so 23% is in the ball park but the handling of ear corn and getting it in bulk do present another set of tasks that have to be dealt with. Shelled corn would not work in an EKO but ear corn has worked in mine but I have not done a lot of testing as far as burn rates/consumption. Trying to get "there" on that one. Anyway it was just a thought sorry it didn't help..
 
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