Anyone Seen/Heard of the Taco Bumblebee Pump?

[Clarkbug]

Mornin' All.

I was poking around the Taco webpage, and stumbled across this guy:

http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/products/products.html?current_category=405

Looks like it could be a pretty handy way to control return temps from a zone, or make sure you werent depleting your storage by pushing too much water out to a zone that doesnt need it. My question is that I dont know if it tries to speed up or slow down to meet some of its setpoints, depending on the mode.

I also cant find any for sale online, which makes me wonder if its a supplier-only thing right now. No mention of a price anywhere either... But it could be a really nice way to offer delta T control without an additional controls setup, and it would integrate with an existing switching relay.

Any thoughts?

 

[Vinced]

That looks like it would work good in the off season when I'm just heating my DHW. No need to circulate 160 degree plus water when your only heating your DHW to 120 degrees. I'd be interested in the price.

 

[ewdudley]

I also cant find any for sale online, which makes me wonder if its a supplier-only thing right now. No mention of a price anywhere either... But it could be a really nice way to offer delta T control without an additional controls setup, and it would integrate with an existing switching relay.

Any thoughts?

I guess one could congratulate Taco for refusing to release a product that must have some serious problems, judging by the fact that people have been asking "Where's the Bumblebee?" for over three years.

So no point in discussing the advantages of a pump that just doesn't exist as far as I can determine.

 

[Clarkbug]

Thanks EW. I didnt realize that they have been discussing it for so long! I just sorta stumbled across it and thought it was just on its way out..... Whoops!

 

[ewdudley]

Thanks EW. I didnt realize that they have been discussing it for so long! I just sorta stumbled across it and thought it was just on its way out..... Whoops!

From HeatingHelp.com:

1-31-12 BUMBLE BEE UPDATE
Douglas Bird,

Taco has responded to the request you submitted on Taco-HVAC.com.
From: Douglas Bird
Message: Hi Rick, thanks for inquiring about the Bumble Bee circ. We first presented the Bumble Bee at the May 2010 NAOSHM Show in Providence. It has gone thru a few design enhancements subsequent to our first round of beta field tests to make it even better than the original design. It's in our final beta test now and is planned for market release this Spring. It still has all the Multi-Function capability, runs quieter, has greater performance plus a universal swivel-flange casing. Do not reply to this email

Thank you.

So "real soon". Again, if the product had problems and they refused to damage their reputation by releasing it, then good for them. It won't change the fact that I bought a Wilo Stratos in the meantime, oh well. [Except the Taco is temperature control and the Wilo is constant head, so the Taco wouldn't have solved my problem in the first place.]

 

[Clarkbug]

Guess I need to do a little more searching next time... But thanks for posting the info from HeatingHelp. Ill be curious to see if they decide to price them in line with the offerings from Wilo and Grundfos, or if they try to cut under them.

 

[in hot water]

The early release info indicated it was going to be a ∆ T only pump, with an ECM motor. I hope the delay release will present a P function also. No doubt there are instances where ∆ T is the best control option but it is not a replacement for a ∆ P when zoning and adjusting the pump curve to the system curve. And of course it needs to be reliable.

 

[ewdudley]

going to be a ∆ T only pump, with an ECM motor. I hope the delay release will present a P function also. .

DeltaT, selectable speed, or temperature setpoint control. Would be nice for boiler loop injection return temperature control, or integration with outdoor reset if it has an externally controlled mode or its own outdoor reset mode. But no isobaric control that I can see.

 

[dogwood]

This site had a product review with a little more detailed explanation of it's function; http://www.green-buildings.com/content/781647-taco-bumblebee-high-efficiency-circulator. And an instruction sheet from TACO is at: http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-435.pdf

 

[bigburner]

Taco had a contest to name the pump, they respectfully rejected my entry.

 

[pwschiller]

I don't know anything about the Bumblebee, but I've been trying to come up with a good way to pull only as much hot water off the top of the tanks as is needed to get the job done. That would minimize mixing in the tanks and it would also minimize water temp and heat losses in my underground PEX lines.

My system will have a wood boiler, storage and a primary loop in the workshop a second primary loop and backup oil boiler in the house. With the exception of my indirect DHW tank, all heat is radiant. My plan is to have a Taco i-Series setpoint mixing valve between storage and the primary loop in the shop.

I would like to use the primary loop return temp to help determine whether more heat is required of the system. I think that if you only had an i-Series sensor monitoring the system return temp and were using that to try to maintain a return temp setpoint of say 110 F, because the sensor would be so far downstream from the i-Series system supply, I think that there would be quite a yo-yo effect in the system temps. The best solution that I have come up with would be to use two temp sensors, one monitoring the system supply temp (out of the i-Series valve) and a second one monitoring the system return temp; the two sensors would then be connected in parallel to the i-Series valve. When running two resistors (thermistors) in parallel, adding the inverse of the individual resistances gives you the inverse of the total resistance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Parallel_circuits

When the i-Series valve has a setpoint of 150 F, the net effect of running the two sensors in parallel would give you roughly the following equilibrium points:
return temp supply temp delta T
80 F 138 F 58 F
90 F 133 F 43 F
100 F 128 F 28 F
110 F 122 F 12 F

So, as the system return temp drops, the i-Series valve will raise the system supply temp. There would probably be a minor yo-yo effect initially, but an equilibrium point should be established before long. I haven't tried any of this out yet, so don't take my word that it will work, but that's my plan.

Also, I wondering if I could switch the system return sensor off (open the connection) using a relay, so that when my DHW zone is calling for heat, the system supply temp is just a steady 150 F, or something higher or lower than that by adding a resistor either in series or parallel to the system supply sensor.

 

[ewdudley]

I've been trying to come up with a good way to pull only as much hot water off the top of the tanks as is needed to get the job done. That would minimize mixing in the tanks and it would also minimize water temp and heat losses in my underground PEX lines.


Also, I wondering if I could switch the system return sensor off (open the connection) using a relay, so that when my DHW zone is calling for heat, the system supply temp is just a steady 150 F, or something higher or lower than that by adding a resistor either in series or parallel to the system supply sensor.

Pete,

I've been using a two-zone buffer/hydraulic separator to serve DHW and radiator loads semi-independently.

Top part of the tank has a simple aquastat up a ways from the bottom of the upper zone, and the bottom zone has another aquastat up a ways from the bottom of the bottom zone.

The storage-to-buffer circulator is controlled with simple on-off control. If either aquastat wants hotter water, it turns on the storage-to-buffer circulator.

With a separate indirect water heater you would be drawing off the top of the buffer and the buffer would be replenished as the bottom of the top zone got cool enough, but the idea of independent stratified zones is the same.

Currently my top zone is set to break-on-rise of 140 degF and make-on-fall of 130 degF. Bottom zone breaks on 120 degF and makes on 119 degF. Since the sensor is up off the bottom a few inches, cooler water settles below the sensor and the composite return temperature to storage is 108 degF.

Maintains stratification wonderfully, works great, simple, economical. Tank is 30 gallon propane tank with a few forged half-couplings attached as needed.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/90246/P30/

 

[pybyr]

Heard about it back when they had the naming contest-- and glad to hear that it's not just perpetual vaporware.

As EW says, applause to a company that takes time to get something right.

 

[pwschiller]

I've been using a two-zone buffer/hydraulic separator to serve DHW and radiator loads semi-independently.

Thanks Eliot. I'm pretty sure I understand your diagram and I like the simplicity of it.

In my case, I think that it would make more sense for me to have the buffer tank in my workshop. Half of my heat load will be the shop itself and I won't have any high temp emitters in the house, the DHW having the highest temp requirement, and it can get by at 145-150 F. Then I could have two pumps (with check valves) in parallel sending water from the buffer tank into the house; which one is running at a given time depending on whether DHW is calling for heat.

That would also reduce the temp of the water that is being sent through the underground lines to the house.

Pete

 

[ewdudley]

In my case, I think that it would make more sense for me to have the buffer tank in my workshop. Half of my heat load will be the shop itself and I won't have any high temp emitters in the house, the DHW having the highest temp requirement, and it can get by at 145-150 F. Then I could have two pumps (with check valves) in parallel sending water from the buffer tank into the house; which one is running at a given time depending on whether DHW is calling for heat.

That would also reduce the temp of the water that is being sent through the underground lines to the house.

One house circ pulls from buffer directly to mixing valve and the other pulls directly to DHW indirect tank, and then you wouldn't need the primary/secondary in the house? I like the minimizing underground temperature feature, don't know if we've seen that before.

 

[huffdawg]

I am having trouble getting my storage tank up to 180 °F. I think because I just plumbed in my house loads and it has a alpha 2 on it set to auto adapt so it must be sending too much flow into my buffer tank causing too much mixing. I guess I should just turn the alpha to low speed setting.
I was getting temps. of 180 °F now can't make it past 170 °F

 

[ALASKAPF185]

Rumor we were told was patent issues, not violations but when a product released or not has already been approved and has similar controls is the issue. And its not even a pump, so it was said.
Delta T is the only way to control BTU load, pressure is just that, adjustment to headloss only (fixed piping losses they dont change), piping-devices can play a big role in variance. Temp is load, adjust the load as need changes

 

[RaceFanF1]

Hi All, I have two Taco HEC-2 Bumble Bee circulation pumps on my baseboard home heating system zones. I installed them just because my instantaneous hot water heater is not designed for the supply side being hot. It shuts off and goes to error. So these, when set to "Set Point" should stop the incoming once the baseboards are up to temp. I'm an engineer and could not get these pumps to the "Set Point" (SP) on the readout! Nasty programming technique. I looked on my manual and followed the procedure to the letter and nothing. I could set the temp but not get to "SP". Online they have an Instruction Sheet 102-435. Same number document as the sheet that came with the pumps. However, page 4 on how to get to "SP" is totally different. In the fine print it says Supersedes previous manuals. What a pain should have been 102-435 rev b or something like that. Still a huge pain to program with the "press & hold" this till it flashes and then "scroll" to "that" then press and hold that until it stops flashing. But it likes to switch settings while you simultaneously do this or that! I finally got them to "SP" 140 degrees now I'm going to try to reset the temps to 120. Strongly suggest WiFi abilities so an app on my Iphone could program them in an instant. That's how my remote garage door opener is programmed. Very simple to control anywhere in the world with cell phone connection. Good lock

 

[JP11]

Switching between temps is much easier than switching between modes. Both are sure clunky though. Such a horrible interface. Love the pump though. Very quiet (after the 2 minute spin up) and uses 1/5 the power most of the time.

JP

 

[RaceFanF1]

Switching between temps is much easier than switching between modes. Both are sure clunky though. Such a horrible interface. Love the pump though. Very quiet (after the 2 minute spin up) and uses 1/5 the power most of the time.

JP

Thanks JP11. The day they release a new model with digital readout of the "SP" temp as it climbs toward the set temp and WiFi programming so a dEsExLic like me can zip thru the programming and watch the temp climb I'll be buying 2 regardless of cost.

 

[RaceFanF1]

Well TACO doesn't reply to my inquiry so here's my only hope. I somehow managed to achieve "SP" mode and set the temp to 140. My furnace is set to output 160 deg. Furnace alarms before TACOs shut down. So I progressed thru the arduous task of resetting the temp to 100 deg. Same result. So once again I lowered the temp setting now to 75 degs to see what happens. Runs for a while then Bumble Bee starts to lower the GPM and AMPs. Until about 8 GPM from 15. Still running but going no lower. This sends the heater into low pressure mode and stops. Is there a way to get the Bumble Bee to just reach "SP" and stop? That's what I really need, not slow down.

 

[Coal Reaper]

I was dreading the thought that i might have to reprogram mine after being powered off all summer. But it picked right back up. It took over an hour for me to play around with it before it locked into SP. And the directions were no help.
No way i kno of to get it to stop without cuttings its power. Wont run less then speed 1, about 9-14 watts depending on exact voltage at the time. I use mine to cycle water from storage to my house loop, 120' run. It clears the lines at high speed for three minutes and then backs off to maintain at minimum 130* return to storage. It does that really well. Once you figure out how to program...i couldnt do it again...

 

[RaceFanF1]

I was dreading the thought that i might have to reprogram mine after being powered off all summer. But it picked right back up. It took over an hour for me to play around with it before it locked into SP. And the directions were no help.
No way i kno of to get it to stop without cuttings its power. Wont run less then speed 1, about 9-14 watts depending on exact voltage at the time. I use mine to cycle water from storage to my house loop, 120' run. It clears the lines at high speed for three minutes and then backs off to maintain at minimum 130* return to storage. It does that really well. Once you figure out how to program...i couldnt do it again...

Coal Reaper you're a genius if you were able to program this pump with the instructions that came with it. They don't work. Download the "new" version and it works okay, kinda sorta, almost. Enough to get thru it. My situation now is my Reem/RUDD runs fine and then slows to a point where it reads "P1" and shuts off. Seemingly slowing its flow to the point where it will not run. After some time it fires right up again and does the same thing over and over. Maybe this is okay? The Bumble Bees run full speed until my "SP" of 125 is met and they slow very slowly from 15 GPM to about 6 GPM and all just sit there with my baseboard units up to temp. Then the whole thing starts again. Maybe this is perfect??? Is repeated P1 on the REEM/RUUD just it cycling properly on a circulating system? There's no instructions on using instantaneous how water heaters on a circulating system. Anyway my house is warm.

 

[TCaldwell]

Not sure if the bumblebee i had on one of my 6 zones for a day was indicative of others, it was very noisy and unable to maintain any sort of a delta consistently. At that point the vt series had finished beta testing in new england and was not available as I wanted to try delta t. With the energy rebates in affect decided to try a alpha delta p circ, not wanting to get into the discussion of delta t vs p here but what a quality circ. No noise, easy to program, depending on the head of the particular zone the 6 of them run 1 to 1.5 gpm on low fixed or auto adapt. Previously each zone had a 15-58 on low speed, 2.5 to 7 gpm per zone, about 330 watts and practically no delta t.!

 

[JP11]

I guess I'm lucky running mine in Delta T. They run wide open for two minutes, then go for my set delta T. The one that pulls from storage tanks is set to 30 degrees, the other circs, 3 of them.. are all set to 20 delta T. Two of the three have zone valves that control two zones per circ. Works fantastic.

I stapled the instruction book to the wall, and PRAY I never have to use it again.