Are Non-CAT stoves more forgiving of less than perfectly seasoned wood than CAT stoves

[Gridlock]

I'm having a lot of trouble with my VC Defiant CAT stove as far as back-puffing, CAT overfiring, and temperature regulation. I'm also tired of baby-sitting it; a problem which I never had with my previous non-CAT stove (Avalon Olympic). I'm using the same wood with the Defiant that I used with the Olympic; it is possible that my wood is not as dry as it should be for the Defiant. I ordered a moisture meter so will have more information about that shortly.

The questions is whether in general non-CAT stoves are more forgiving over CAT stoves if the wood is not perfectly seasoned? Or are the problems I'm having more due to my specific stove? I am considering replacing my Defiant with something else and am wondering what direction to go in. If my wood is not perfectly seasoned, I could certainly try to get better wood, but I would think that occassionally some of the wood might still have a bit higher moisture content and I don't want the stove to barf every time there is a little bit of wood which isn't perfectly dry. I also want to be able to babysit the stove less, especially in the morning when I need to go to work and don't have so much time.

Thanks!

 

[rdust]

All EPA stoves CAT or non CAT like properly seasoned wood. A non CAT may be less picky about it but both will benefit from good wood. I say wait until the meter arrives before jumping to conclusions about the stove.

Get 2-3 years ahead and you won't have to worry about your wood supply.

 

[Gridlock]

All EPA stoves CAT or non CAT like properly seasoned wood. A non CAT may be less picky about it but both with benefit from good wood. I'd say wait until the meter arrives before jumping to conclusions about the stove.

Get 2-3 years ahead and you won't have to worry about your wood supply.

Unfortunately, I don't have the space for that.

 

[begreen]

The issue may not be Cat vs non-Cat here. From the comments posted over the years here, it seems there are other Cat designs that are less fussy than the VC design. But all stoves benefit from burning dry wood and so do you, you get more heat.

If you don't have a large wood storage capacity, be sure to get your "seasoned" wood in early spring and try to get species that dry well in 1 year.

 

[rdust]

Unfortunately, I don't have the space for that.

Do you buy your wood or process your own? Most wood types will be "ok" if they're cut, split and stacked early spring. I would stay away from oak if possible.

If you buy wood make sure you buy c/s wood as early as possible for the season you're going to be burning it.

 

[Slow1]

I agree that all modern stoves - Cat and non-Cat - are going to operate at their optimal with the best wood you can give them. Marginally seasoned wood will not burn as well in either stove - but the effects may be different. With the Cat stove, if you engage the cat too soon (i.e. before driving off enough moisture and/or getting the firebox up to high enough temp) you are very likely to damage the cat via thermal shock. With the non-cat you don't have to worry about thermal shock - thus chronic use of damp wood won't damage the stove.

I had far more puffing in my NC VC Encore than I have had in my current CAT stove. I have burned marginal wood in both (sadly) as there was some in my pile this year that turned out to not be as good as I thought it was. My guess is that your issue is more to do with stove and/or chimney design than it is the cat/non-cat question. Perhaps if your cat is getting clogged you could blame it - but properly maintained (i.e. cleaned out frequently enough) it shouldn't be blocking flow during the time that you are getting these puffs - it should be burning good and hot which should generate plenty of heat up the flue to help increase draft for you.

As I recall you reported the issue was worse in warmer weather - have you considered adding a bit more pipe to the top of your chimney (even temporarily) to see if that helps? Might be interesting to see if that fixes your issue - would be a lot less expensive and easier than replacing the stove (not that I'm against replacing stoves per-se).

 

[grommal]

The issue may not be Cat vs non-Cat here. From the comments posted over the years here, it seems there are other Cat designs that are less fussy than the VC design. But all stoves benefit from burning dry wood and so do you, you get more heat.

If you don't have a large wood storage capacity, be sure to get your "seasoned" wood in early spring and try to get species that dry well in 1 year.

Sage advice, BeGreen. I have a wood vendor who provides "seasoned" wood that is actually fairly dry, at least it's dry enough to burn in a fireplace or old smoke dragon with no issues. Burns right away without moisture bubbling, and sounds like a baseball bat when you bang two pieces together, but it's still not really dry enough for the new stoves to perform at their best. I get wood from him in early March, resplit the larger pieces in half or thirds, and stack it until the fall. That's enough to render almost all of that wood into a very dry condition, and it burns beautifully. There are still a few pieces that end up a little too wet in November, but are ok by February.

So, though he fiercely claims his wood to be fully seasoned and ready-to-burn, it still needs another 6-10 months to get there. But at least I can buy wood mostly within the same year that I need it, and keep my yard from being completely consumed by wood stacks!

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Please, whatever you think, do not take what I write to mean something it isn't. I do not want to be too harsh, but I feel that anyone who burns wood has to have at least a 2 year supply on hand at all times. If you don't have the room where you live, perhaps you can rent some space somewhere else. Whatever it takes to have wood on hand. Also, don't ever think you can buy good seasoned wood from any wood seller as they are very few and far between. They all will tell you it is seasoned and ready to burn but experience says not. Either they do not know what seasoned wood is or understand why it has to be seasoned, or dry or else they just say it to make the sale.

I can certainly understand why wood sellers do not want to store a lot of wood after it has been cut and split as it means extra handling of the wood and space required. That is why a lot of them cut into log length and then cut to firewood length and split just before delivering. It works for them but is not good for the wood burner. This is why even those who buy their wood need to have at least a 2 year supply on hand.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes to your question. Non-cat stoves are more forgiving of burning wet wood. You just split it smaller and give more air to the fire. There is no risk of damage to anything in the stove, no cat to stall out and backpuff, and while there will likely be more smoke and creosote from the chimney you will get heat from it. When you are able to source dry wood everything is better.

VCs are not a good stove for a guy that just wants to burn without fiddling around and babysitting. They're really not a good stove for anyone, I wouldn't let my mom buy one.

I'm with Dennis in regards to wood on hand. I have two years worth of wood stacked in my yard already for many reasons including drier wood. Last year it was 16 cords in the yard (3 years) but I had some friends in need so I'm now down to two years. I may just shoot for three again and be able to give more away this winter.

 

[TMonter]

I have burned a season of less than seasoned wood in my Quad and had to clean the chimney every 3 weeks during the height of burning season to keep my rain cap screen unclogged. It seems like the non-cats have less trouble burning less than seasoned wood but I wouldn't recommend it for any stove. Burn 1 season with good well seasoned wood and you'll never want to go back, trust me.

 

[firefighterjake]

Just echoing here . . . the general agreement has been and continues to be that non-cats are more forgiving than cat stoves when it comes to burning with less than optimal wood . . . but at the same time folks also agree that it is best for all stoves to have well seasoned wood.

Getting ahead a year or two is best . . . the next best option as mentioned is to get a wood delivery in late winter or early Spring . . . that way you know it has been cut, split and stacked for X number of months since it has been at your home vs. buying the wood in Fall and not knowing if it was cut and split six months earlier or the week prior. Also, if possible go with wood such as white ash, cherry, etc. if at all possible vs. the more dense woods such as oak.

 

[oldspark]

Just to up set the apple cart!

"There are people who insist that wood should be dried (seasoned) for at least one or two years. Experimental evidence has established that is nearly always unnecessary, as long as the pieces of wood are cut to length and stacked. Natural air flows through the stack and particularly through the cut cells of the pieces of wood themselves, dries them sooner than that. Experimental evidence has established that one-foot long cut pieces generally dry to acceptable levels in just two or three months. Two-foot long cut pieces take about six or seven months for similar acceptability. Four-foot long cut pieces DO require at least a year."

 

[Slow1]

Just to up set the apple cart!

"There are people who insist that wood should be dried (seasoned) for at least one or two years. Experimental evidence has established that is nearly always unnecessary, as long as the pieces of wood are cut to length and stacked. Natural air flows through the stack and particularly through the cut cells of the pieces of wood themselves, dries them sooner than that. Experimental evidence has established that one-foot long cut pieces generally dry to acceptable levels in just two or three months. Two-foot long cut pieces take about six or seven months for similar acceptability. Four-foot long cut pieces DO require at least a year."

I'll bite. As a QE Engineer the simple answer to this is in the definition of "acceptable levels." Acceptable to whom and by what standards? One has to be careful not to allow the standard of "acceptable" to be set by what can be achieved in a given time period in a particular environment.

I recognize the quote that you have given here, but can't quite place the source or context - so I can't speculate as to what particular stove or environment the author is speaking to.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

oldspark, your experimental evidence just does not agree with our experimental evidence except for the fact that the shorter wood will dry faster than the longer wood. It also sounds like you just lump all wood together as drying the same. I'll just say that theory is very interesting......... Not believable, but interesting.

 

[oldspark]

oldspark, your experimental evidence just does not agree with our experimental evidence except for the fact that the shorter wood will dry faster than the longer wood. It also sounds like you just lump all wood together as drying the same. I'll just say that theory is very interesting......... Not believable, but interesting.

This is a subject that could go on for ever but a lot of this information I find to be some what true with what I have found in my expierence (too many varibles for set rules), the one thing I have observed on this site is the stacking of wood with no air space between the rows, I would bet money my wood dries faster than that method. How much faster I dont know, I ordered a moisture meter so I can check my wood as it goes through the summer months, I am looking forward to what I observe. In my 30+ years of burning I have had only had a couple of sizzlers and that was before I knew what I was doing. My new EPA stove might teach my a thing or two but you are never too old to learn.

 

[oldspark]

Just to up set the apple cart!

"There are people who insist that wood should be dried (seasoned) for at least one or two years. Experimental evidence has established that is nearly always unnecessary, as long as the pieces of wood are cut to length and stacked. Natural air flows through the stack and particularly through the cut cells of the pieces of wood themselves, dries them sooner than that. Experimental evidence has established that one-foot long cut pieces generally dry to acceptable levels in just two or three months. Two-foot long cut pieces take about six or seven months for similar acceptability. Four-foot long cut pieces DO require at least a year."

I'll bite. As a QE Engineer the simple answer to this is in the definition of "acceptable levels." Acceptable to whom and by what standards? One has to be careful not to allow the standard of "acceptable" to be set by what can be achieved in a given time period in a particular environment.

I recognize the quote that you have given here, but can't quite place the source or context - so I can't speculate as to what particular stove or environment the author is speaking to.

They are using the 20% moisture as a guide line.

http://mb-soft.com/juca/print/firewood.html

 

[oldspark]

Just to up set the apple cart!

"There are people who insist that wood should be dried (seasoned) for at least one or two years. Experimental evidence has established that is nearly always unnecessary, as long as the pieces of wood are cut to length and stacked. Natural air flows through the stack and particularly through the cut cells of the pieces of wood themselves, dries them sooner than that. Experimental evidence has established that one-foot long cut pieces generally dry to acceptable levels in just two or three months. Two-foot long cut pieces take about six or seven months for similar acceptability. Four-foot long cut pieces DO require at least a year."

I'll bite. As a QE Engineer the simple answer to this is in the definition of "acceptable levels." Acceptable to whom and by what standards? One has to be careful not to allow the standard of "acceptable" to be set by what can be achieved in a given time period in a particular environment.

I recognize the quote that you have given here, but can't quite place the source or context - so I can't speculate as to what particular stove or environment the author is speaking to.

They are using the 20% moisture as a guide line.

http://mb-soft.com/juca/print/firewood.html

 

[Backwoods Savage]

oldspark, your experimental evidence just does not agree with our experimental evidence except for the fact that the shorter wood will dry faster than the longer wood. It also sounds like you just lump all wood together as drying the same. I'll just say that theory is very interesting......... Not believable, but interesting.

This is a subject that could go on for ever but a lot of this information I find to be some what true with what I have found in my expierence (too many varibles for set rules), the one thing I have observed on this site is the stacking of wood with no air space between the rows, I would bet money my wood dries faster than that method. How much faster I dont know, I ordered a moisture meter so I can check my wood as it goes through the summer months, I am looking forward to what I observe. In my 30+ years of burning I have had only had a couple of sizzlers and that was before I knew what I was doing. My new EPA stove might teach my a thing or two but you are never too old to learn.

Methinks that most of us who do not put space between each row has more drying time. If one has only a year's supply on hand, then they definitely need space between each row. As for me, I stack 3 rows together a lot but have also stacked 20 rows together....but our wood has plenty of time to dry so it is a non-issue here. However, if I cut oak (usually red or pin) I will usually stack that separate because it dries so slow.

It is hard to believe that with over 30 years experience you are buying a moisture meter!

 

[oldspark]

oldspark, your experimental evidence just does not agree with our experimental evidence except for the fact that the shorter wood will dry faster than the longer wood. It also sounds like you just lump all wood together as drying the same. I'll just say that theory is very interesting......... Not believable, but interesting.

This is a subject that could go on for ever but a lot of this information I find to be some what true with what I have found in my expierence (too many varibles for set rules), the one thing I have observed on this site is the stacking of wood with no air space between the rows, I would bet money my wood dries faster than that method. How much faster I dont know, I ordered a moisture meter so I can check my wood as it goes through the summer months, I am looking forward to what I observe. In my 30+ years of burning I have had only had a couple of sizzlers and that was before I knew what I was doing. My new EPA stove might teach my a thing or two but you are never too old to learn.

Methinks that most of us who do not put space between each row has more drying time. If one has only a year's supply on hand, then they definitely need space between each row. As for me, I stack 3 rows together a lot but have also stacked 20 rows together....but our wood has plenty of time to dry so it is a non-issue here. However, if I cut oak (usually red or pin) I will usually stack that separate because it dries so slow.

It is hard to believe that with over 30 years experience you are buying a moisture meter!

The moisture meter if just something I want to play with, I do not need it but am interested in the readings. I am a couple of years ahead but I will continue to stack in single rows because of mold and bugs and mildew, I think it makes more sense to let the air through. Some of the comments on this site about mold and "the oak looks just like when I cut it two years ago" can be contributed to the stacking of the wood.

 

[begreen]

Just to up set the apple cart!

"There are people who insist that wood should be dried (seasoned) for at least one or two years. Experimental evidence has established that is nearly always unnecessary, as long as the pieces of wood are cut to length and stacked. Natural air flows through the stack and particularly through the cut cells of the pieces of wood themselves, dries them sooner than that. Experimental evidence has established that one-foot long cut pieces generally dry to acceptable levels in just two or three months. Two-foot long cut pieces take about six or seven months for similar acceptability. Four-foot long cut pieces DO require at least a year."

I'll bite. As a QE Engineer the simple answer to this is in the definition of "acceptable levels." Acceptable to whom and by what standards? One has to be careful not to allow the standard of "acceptable" to be set by what can be achieved in a given time period in a particular environment.

I recognize the quote that you have given here, but can't quite place the source or context - so I can't speculate as to what particular stove or environment the author is speaking to.

They are using the 20% moisture as a guide line.

http://mb-soft.com/juca/print/firewood.html

There's an important metric missing in that anecdotal evidence. They don't say the thickness of the splits. Thinner splits will dry faster. We split our wood in the 6-10" range. If fir, it needs a year to dry, if madrona, at least 2 years. Several years back, when the stove didn't seem to be putting out the heat, even though I was burning year old madrona. I resplit some and sure enough, the fresh surface was still damp.

With the new stove you will see this much more dramatically than when the fire is sitting behind a steel door. Burn nice and dry wood and the stove will be a treat to run and heat. Burn half-dried wood and it is not going to heat to satisfaction, nor will the fire show be as nice.

 

[oldspark]

For the most part wood dries from the ends, splitting changes that bit it still dries from the ends, thats why it is so important to stack in single rows. We are not talking about "half dried wood" they are using the 20% reference.

 

[Slow1]

I am a couple of years ahead but I will continue to stack in single rows because of mold and bugs and mildew, I think it makes more sense to let the air through. Some of the comments on this site about mold and "the oak looks just like when I cut it two years ago" can be contributed to the stacking of the wood.

I do believe you have a very valid point there. Folks do seem to obsess far more on the time that wood is stacked and far less on HOW the wood is stacked during that time. As someone who hangs clothes out to dry on a regular basis I can relate that air flow is very important for drying.

Clearly stacking wood in a dense block is not gong to allow the wood to dry as fast as spreading it out in wide rows. Now, the question is does stacking in a 1 row width stack vs 3 row wide stack take red oak from 2 years down to 6 months drying time (where "dry" is defined as <= 20% average MC at center of splits)?

IF this were the case, I could save a lot of space - give up storing 3 years worth of wood (not quite there yet) which is 12 cords, and instead spread 3 cords of wood over the same space for 1 year. It would be nice, but there seems to be a lot of 'lore' against such a proposition. Then again - how many of the folks who are 3+ years ahead stack their wood in single rows?

 

[Highbeam]

I think wood dries from all exposed surfaces, not just the ends. This is why a stack of rounds won't dry out nearly as fast, if at all, as split wood.

 

[begreen]

Perhaps. I've never stacked in single rows. Usually I stack by the cord, 3 rows 4'x8'x16" right up against each other. Our splits are not perfect and plenty of air seems to get through the pile. Again, thick split fir, alder is dry by this method after a year. Madrona (and some cherry) is not.

By splitting thinner, more wood surface is exposed. It will definitely dry out the wood faster. This trick is often used when a person finds that they have damp wood in the winter.

 

[Slow1]

I suppose my biggest problem with stacking in single rows is it takes more skill to stack well enough to avoid having the stack fall over. When stacking three deep you can have the outside rows lean in against the middle a bit and they can hold each other up. Not to mention the fact that they just fit well that way on the pallets I've gathered

Not that any of this has anything to do with how well a non-cat vs cat stove will burn it. I know the stoves don't care how the wood was stacked eh?