Arg! Chimney Liner connection "T" not square to room!

[holybuzz]

Great forum! Been reading for a while, but now I need to pick the collective brain.

The offending liner tee

This photo was taken as perpendicular to the wall as possible. As you can see from the photo, the "T" from the chimney liner isn't perpendicular to the room. Not even close. In fact, although it's hard to tell from the pic, the "T" also goes down to meet the liner. In other words, the smoke will have to go down about 12 inches before it goes up the liner. I'm assuming (hoping) that the natural updraft will take care of this.

But my BIG problem is that I don't know the best way to connect the stove pipe to the "T". I know that I can leave the connection point as is and just live with a connector pipe that comes out of the wall looking like something from a Dr. Seuss book. But that's not the kind of ugly that I'm looking for.

I have contacted the installer (by all accounts, a good guy), but haven't heard back yet.

Some facts/questions:

- The chimney is about 30 feet high. According to the installer, that's the reason for the misalignment. Apparently the pipe was a tight fit in the existing chimney and couldn't be straightened.
- The liner was installed with that vermiculite-based filler. I know that this makes moving the liner itself impossible. But I want only to slightly shift the "T". Possible?
- I have no problem with knocking a few more bricks out to shift—carefully—the "T" to the right so that it will be more square. Will this compromise the liner and overall installation?
- I had hoped to find something like an adjustable thimble to compensate for the misalignment. After a long search, I'm pretty sure that no such thing exists.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Would really like to have this done before xmas. Wouldn't want Santa stuck there.

Keith

 

[begreen]

This is unacceptable, especially for a paid installation. Smoke does not go downhill. Don't let anyone BS you about this. The tee needs to go slightly uphill to perform correctly. Have the installer try to pull the pipe from the top while someone is pushing up from below. The need to change the pitch of the tee from negative to slightly positive.

 

[holybuzz]

BeGreen,

Thanks for the response. And you confirmed my worst fears. I figured that maybe the updraft in the chimney would be enough to offset the down-tilted T, but I guess it's better to give nature a headstart rather than ask it to do all the work.

I heard back from the installer, who suggests that I solve the out of alignment problem by using a "straightened out" 90. Doesn't sound like top-tier engineering to me. Plus, my understanding is that connector pipe can't extend into a finished wall. Is that right? And even if it could, exactly how ugly would this look?

Anybody else ever had this kind of problem?

Clarification: The installer says that the reason for the out of alignment is that the flue tile rotated 90 degrees from top to bottom. Not sure if I understand what that means or why it should affect the vertical misalignment (out of level).

K

 

[begreen]

If the take off for the tee is too low, the reason for the out of alignment is not measuring twice before cutting. I know it would have been a PITA to have to come down off the roof, double-check alignment and adjust, but this is just wrong. The job may have been a pain but that doesn't excuse leaving the homeowner with a dysfunctional flue. The vermiculite should not have been poured before asserting that all was proper and in correct alignment. Unless I am missing details here, this sounds like not fessing up to an installation error. Stand firm and get it corrected.

 

[jtp10181]

Plus, my understanding is that connector pipe can’t extend into a finished wall. Is that right? And even if it could, exactly how ugly would this look?

The way it is now, with just brick you could put the connector pipe right into the tee snout. Do you plan on finishing the wall off with drywall or something similar? If so there are very special requirements you must meet. There is an article or PDF someplace on this site that is VERY helpful in this situation. There are also some prefabbed parts you can use for that.

 

[LeonMSPT]

Is the thing high enough off the floor that you could take out some more brick below it and line it up? Sounds like he measured once...

 

[holybuzz]

JTP and Leon,

Again, thanks.

Yes, there is going to be a finished wall. In fact, the plan is to put in an entire wall of built-in bookcase, allowing for a section to accommodate a square thimble. I haven't worked out all the details yet, but this will of course necessitate bringing the stove out into the room an appropriate extra distance. (BTW, I'm using double-wall all the way.) The existing brick wall wasn't for primetime. Only the facing, which has since been removed, was detailed. The stuff further up the wall—where the T is—was never meant for public consumption.

It looks like I could carefully chip away beneath the T and thereby give myself a shot at lowering it. The potential problem here is that the vermiculite is set. My hope is that doing it slowly and incrementally will keep the vermiculite disturbance to a minimum.

BTW, speaking of double-wall, if you look at the pic, you can see that there is zero space between the left of the "T" and the brick. No matter what double wall piece I start with (thimble, 90 or whatever), I'd still have to gouge out space for the outer wall of the pipe to slide in. Yet another "wrinkle".

Keith

 

[jtp10181]

Craig (or someone) where is that damned pdf file that shows the proper way to do a wall pass-through. I can tell this guy plans on starting his wall on fire and needs some learnin' ;-).

 

[holybuzz]

JTP,

No plans to set my wall on fire. Quite the contrary. I'm only here asking questions because my licensed installer, the guy with an assistant, a 35+-foot crane and the truck with the logo on the side, the guy who is supposed to know A LOT more than me, told me that his work was ready to go. Unless you guys are all dead wrong, that doesn't seem so. Believe me, I'm not the type to rush in and do a good enough for gov't job just to get it done. You can't be too careful where fire is concerned.

If the bookcase idea (with a section for the metal thimble) is what sounds...unconventional, rest assured that I will conform to all clearance requirements, plus a little extra for my own peace of mind.

 

[begreen]

Here's an article from the library:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/passing_a_chimney

Tom (thechimneysweep) uses a short length of class A pipe for the thimble as discussed in this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11683/

And here is a picture of Selkirk's wall thimble.

 

[holybuzz]

BeGreen,

Thanks for the passthrough PDF. I'll be going the metal thimble route. Properly framed; airspace, not insulation; etc.

I guess what I'm looking for now is a few opinions on how much damage I could do to the vermiculite insulation if I chip away some brick from under the liner "T" and try to drop it down to level and, hopefully, as much as possible to the right.

As for the installer, he's "booked" all this week. But if all he's going to do is more or less what I propose, I might as well do it myself and save myself some time and a headache.

Thoughts?

 

[LeonMSPT]

Assuming... (scary) the chimney is secured at the top and can't drop when you remove the bricks, it shouldn't disrupt the vermiculite to any degree.

Cleanout access must be locked in somehow as well. The mass of the entire rig, with the vermiculite between the liner and the chimney, should hold it in place... Given that it has set...

 

[holybuzz]

BeGreen,

Looks like I found Selkirk's Insulated Wall Thimble at almost exactly the same time you did. What I can't confirm about this model is whether or not it would work with double-walled pipe. Or does it assume the use of single-wall stove pipe? The ad doesn't say. Has anyone else used this?

Selkirk makes another one (PDF) that can be used for both.

Does anyone have experience with either?

Keith

 

[BrotherBart]

Is that hole in the wall as tall as the top edge of the insulation packed on top? In other words, if the insulation is pulled out can you access where the tee is attached to the liner?

 

[holybuzz]

Bart,

I don't think I could gain any useful access to the tee/liner connection without removing more brick.

At this point I'm just trying to solve the out-of-level problem with the tee. I need to make it at least level, not pitched down.

BTW, yet another problem. I bought my double-walled pipe last night. I bought a Selkirk kit: two telescopic pieces (both shortest at 3ft), one stove connection, one elbow, one 12" piece, one wall connection.

Despite having told my installer that I was going with double-walled pipe, he didn't take into account the fact that double-walled pipe comes in fixed lengths. (I didn't know this when the install was done.) I just discovered that my tee is about 72 inches from the floor at the center, which, when you factor in the height of my stove and newly-tiled floor, is almost exactly in between the 2ft and 3ft pipe lengths that are my only options for coming up from the stove.

It never stops.

Any ideas? What should I ask of my installer for this hayride? What does he owe me in terms of a fix? Was I supposed to know all of this stuff beforehand so that I could advise HIM on the install?

Keith

 

[bokehman]

How did Father Christmas's beard get caught in the job?

 

[holybuzz]

Boke,

If you're referring to the fiber insulation, as far as I can tell it was put there to act as a barrier for the poured vermiculite-based insulation.

K

 

[holybuzz]

I think this thread is out of steam, but I'm going to give it one more chance.

In particular, does anyone have anything to say about my installer's suggestion that I connect to my liner tee by "taking an adjustable 90 degree elbow and straightening it out until you get the correct angle"?

Given that these are strictly engineered pieces of pipe, wouldn't doing something like this be a violation of code? Are adjustable 90s (I haven't seen one) meant to be used in that way? Has anyone ever heard of this kind of application? And is this idea a no-go for a finished wall?

Keith