As a newbie, I have a question. Please help!

[thsu01]

My house is 3600 sf in western Mass. I just survived our first winter here with only a newly installed wood pellet stove. I want to install the following heating system to heat the entire house. Please tell me if it is proper or not.

1. Wood Gun E180 with oil backup.
2. 2000 gallons (4X500 gallons by Ahona), pressurized, in my garage, not basement.

I have baseboard fin-type heating through out the house (7 zones). Plan on burning wood fo rthe next winter. What else do I need? What have I missed? Do I need to go with other system? Massachusetts calls for ASME certified system.

Than you for your input.

 

[maple1]

What is there now to heat the existing baseboard?

 

[thsu01]

There is a Weil Mclain oil boiler in the basement. The pipeline is filled with coolant.

 

[98kx1927]

I'm looking at a similar sized boiler, storage package. I'm looking at the Vigas 80kw instead. What do you like better about the wood gun?

david

 

[maple1]

What is your fuel supply situation like - both pellets and wood?

If you don't have wood on hand now that has been split & stacked since last year, you might not be ready for this coming winter - dry wood is essential. Have you considered a pellet boiler?

Massachusetts calls for ASME certified system

Is that really system, or boiler? I thought there were a lot of people on here from MA who don't have a ASME system, or at least I don't remember reading of this before. Hopefully you will get more feedback from MA guys on this part.

I assume you're removing the oil boiler? Since you mention oil backup on the WG? Could storage go there? Another plus for a pellet boiler - no storage needed.

All kinds of things to consider...

 

[thsu01]

In Massachusetts, everything pressurized has to be ASME certified including boile and storage. Econoburn and Wood Gun are the only two I could find that are ASME certified. Maybe there are others. Since I also want an oil backup, therefore, Wood Gun is the only choice. I called Wood Gun people, but was told inconsistent information regarding sizing the boiler and storage. I believe that E180 is rated at 60 kW using a 6" flute which is what's currently installed. I just don't know if 2000 gallons storage is proper for an E180. The information I have from internet research regarding sizing is from this website: http://www.upnorthenergy.com/water_battery_systems.html.

 

[thsu01]

@maple1:

Thank you for your reply I contacted a local supplier for splitted wood and was told to pay $250 for one cord. I think that's reasonable comparing to the proce of oil. regarding the boiler, I started with TARM Froling pellet boiler, but was told that it is not ASME certified. A couple of other wood/pellet boilers, I ended up planning on installing a Wood Gun with oil backup with the blessing from the town building inspector. I just don't know if I have size the boiler and storage correctly. Storage is too big to go downn to the basement, I have to put them in my garage which is about 50 feet away from the boiler where the flute/chimney is located.

 

[DoubleB]

Thank you for your reply I contacted a local supplier for splitted wood and was told to pay $250 for one cord.

Hopefully that would work, but I would use caution. His idea of "dry" is probably much wetter than your boiler would like.

 

[maple1]

I would also be nervous about the wood, or I guess being at the total mercy of a supplier. Even if I was buying split, I would be buying a year ahead.

I think to get a better handle on the 180/2000 questions, we'd need to know more about the heat load. Do you know anything about past oil consumption?

I have a 40kw boiler, & 660 gallons. I would like to have 1000 gallons, and I think that would be a pretty good match. As it is, it does fairly good anyway. 2700 sq.ft. 20 year old conventional construction on an exposed windy hilltop. What is the next smallest WG? Thinking so far that 1000 gallons combined with the next smaller might be a better fit - but it would also come down to your desired firing schedule.

And a further thing to try to fully evaluate is how much would the backup heat source actually get used.

And there is also DHW - how is it heated now, both in the heating season & summer?

My first inclination would be to suggest checking out a Windhager pellet boiler, but I don't know how that jives with this ASME thing.

 

[thsu01]

@DoubleB: Thank you for your informaiton. I will be very careful about what the supplier have to say about thier cord wood.

 

[thsu01]

@maple1: I estimated that burning oil alone to heat up the entire house would have been at the range of > $10,000/year, maybe more. Regarding sizing and heat loss estimate, everything moves so slow here. I don't htink there is time for me to get an accurate measurement. I will probably oversize the heat load, but I can always load less wood in a oversized E180 and storage, I guess.

 

[flyingcow]

@DoubleB: Thank you for your informaiton. I will be very careful about what the supplier have to say about thier cord wood.

Ask him moisture content of dry wood. Get your own moisture meter and verify. 20% or less is ideal

 

[heaterman]

An option that will open up a lot of things for you is to but any boiler you want and install it as an open system.
A lot of older houses in your area had or maybe have an expansion tank up in the attic and tons of coal, wood and oil systems were
installed that way.

Nothing wrong with an open system if done right and it eliminates code issues and boiler inspections. Every OWB out there is an open system (usually not not correctly but they are open) and such luminary boilers as the mighty Garn itself is designed to be open.

 

[maple1]

An option that will open up a lot of things for you is to but any boiler you want and install it as an open system.
A lot of older houses in your area had or maybe have an expansion tank up in the attic and tons of coal, wood and oil systems were
installed that way.

Nothing sroung with an open system if done right and it eliminates code issues and boiler inspections

A very good point. My boiler manual has options outlined for both vented & non-vented expansion. Those Euros have this stuff figured out.

 

[hobbyheater]

Heaterman's suggestion is a good one!
For over 30 years I have successfully operated an early gasification boiler (a Jetstream) with 1,000 gallons of storage with an open to atmosphere expansion tank one story above the boiler and storage.
We live in a small community of about 2,000 people and 30 years ago I could not get approval for installation if the storage component was pressurized.
The heat exchangers for the zones and DHW are inside the storage, a very simple system; one circulator between the boiler and storage and one circulator for the zones.

 

[Fred61]

If the Wood Gun becomes your final candidate for installation (which I would not recommend) you should try to find a way to have your oil back-up in a separate unit. Running an oil burner in a 180 will quickly empty your oil tank.

 

[maple1]

Heaterman's suggestion is a good one!
For over 30 years I have successfully operated an early gasification boiler (a Jetstream) with 1,000 gallons of storage with an open to atmosphere expansion tank one story above the boiler and storage.
We live in a small community of about 2,000 people and 30 years ago I could not get approval for installation if the storage component was pressurized.
The heat exchangers for the zones and DHW are inside the storage, a very simple system; one circulator between the boiler and storage and one circulator for the zones.

I think it could be even simpler if you wanted it to be - just make it all one system as you would a pressurized one, but have an open expansion tank up high. My manual specs 8' above the highest point in the system to prevent oxygen saturation of the water - which would mean the attic in my case (and likely most). As long as what is in the attic is well insulated, it should be good with daily firings sending a little heat up there at least. If I did that here, my expansion tank would be about 25' above my circ pumps, which would present about 10psi to the pumps - just about right. So now I'm wondering why I didn't just do that in the first place. Oh well, maybe a possible future mod....

 

[Mike Fromme]

I have a 60 kW boiler with 1000 gallons pressurized. It works good, at times I wish I had 1500 gallons. I think 2000 would be overkill.

I'd forget about oil backup if you have to replace the oil boiler. And go electric for back up.

 

[flyingcow]

@maple1: I estimated that burning oil alone to heat up the entire house would have been at the range of > $10,000/year, maybe more. Regarding sizing and heat loss estimate, everything moves so slow here. I don't htink there is time for me to get an accurate measurement. I will probably oversize the heat load, but I can always load less wood in a oversized E180 and storage, I guess.

If you plan on heating the whole house and would have used $10,000 of oil to do it.......that would equal about 16 to 20 cord per year. Now you need wood seasoned at least 1 year, so you'll have 2 years of wood sitting around....32 to 40 cord of wood. It's been done before, but that's a very big yard. Plus where will you put the dry/seasoned wood thats ready to burn? That is handling a lot of wood. My house is 1800sq/ft and i burn 7 to 8 cord a year. But we keep the house very warm too. I am seriously spoiled in my wood handling...it's all stacked on palllets and i handle it with my FEL on my tractor.....and I still look at pellet boilers with envy.

2000 gals of storage? Probably need it. But get a Garn 2000( they are an open system boiler) and put that in your garage. Be about the same amount of room as just the storage. Plus easy entry with the wood. Unless you got a walk in basement, IMO, it sucks handling 18 cord of wood thru a bilco door or basement window. Done that as a kid....makes me want to take tylenol just thinking about it now.

You don't need to store 2 yrs of pellets ahead, maybe look at bulk delivery? Not much money saved, but less handling.

Actually wood seasoned close to two yrs will save you money in the long run. Got more room in the yard? But just to buy 2 yrs of wood to get started will be $8000.

 

[flyingcow]

Also, you've got an oil boiler in place. Use that as backup. Control guy can set that up. Combo units are not the best.

 

[thsu01]

Thank you all so much for your replies. Every educaitonal.

I have to have an oil backup in case there is no one in the huse to handle wood loading and firing.

Wood Gun claims that E140 or E180 combinational oil backup has an 86% efficiency, very similar to the wood burner which has 85% efficiency.

We will have our house insulated by MassSave very this summer. Maybe we will not need that much of heat load after that. But I don't know at this moment.

Attic will be sealed off for insulation (foam) and I don't think it's a good idea to put water storage up there.

I still don't quite understand the difference between a close and an open system. Does the open one has to be in the attic because of the need for pressure? Can we set up an open system in the basement and have the hot water pumped to where it is needed? I know that the closed system seems to last longer with less dust issue for lack of oxygen.

I am planning on getting 4X500gallon refurbished LP tanks from ahona, or I can get 8X250gallon new tanks from local supplier and get them hooked up by our plumber (maybe 6X250gallon is enough according to Mike.

 

[maple1]

Have you priced out what you are thinking about yet?

How much will your backup heat actually be used? i.e. how often will you be away in the winter?

Since it sounds like you will be removing the existing oil boiler anyway - you could replace it with an electric boiler that takes up next to no space and doesn't need a chimney, and free up a ton of space (& potential liabilities) in getting rid of the boiler and the oil tank. Backup doesn't need to be oil. It may turn out to the the best for your situation, but we don't know the full situation.

Don't think you mentioned your DHW? Or how you plan to handle that? That should be considered when deciding on backup heat source. Oil DHW is the most costly to operate - sometimes by whole lot.

Any access to natural gas? Any propane already there?

I didn't mean storage tank in the attic - I meant expansion tank. Although an expansion tank will have some water in it, I think it would be OK if it & the pipe to it are well insulated along with the daily firings that would send some heated water up the pipe. But I'm not 100% sure on that. It's just that you would have so many more options if you could get past this ASME thing.

 

[hobbyheater]

The expansion tank is a 40 gallon electric hot water tank .The expansion tank and the pipe leading to it should be well insulated or it will be a source of heat lose . The storage tank capacity is 1,046 imperial gallons and a temperature rise from 120F to 195 F produces some were in the range of 35 gallons of expansion water. The boiler and storage tank are in the room below the expansion tank and wood storage area .

 

[thsu01]

13K for boiler

6-7K for storage

5K for wiring and piping?

Maybe at the range fo 25K.

If cost is not a major concern here, will it solve my problem for the next 20 years?

 

[maple1]

Speaking for myself - can't tell yet.

There are still several unanswered questions and unaddressed issues from above.

Chief among those IMO is your fuel supply - adequacy of it, space for it, ability to handle & manage it, and everything else associated with it. 20 years of burning is also 20 years of boiler maintenance & cleaning - most of the important decision factors require thorough personal evaluation rather than upfront costing.