attn englander techs (mike holton)... please help

[hnkstang50]

i am having problems with my room air blower... after a few weeks or more of operation it starts making horrible noises... i am on my 4th blower and this one is doing the same thing. its at the point where you cannot hear the tv over the screetching. the screching comes and goes but the longer i use it the worse it gets. i have sent a blower back and was told no problem was found... my recent calls to englander i am told that this is possibly normal operation and a supervisor told me it is normal for squirl cage blowers to be noisy... i know the normal noise and every new blower has fixed it for weeks... this noise is not normal. there are also others on this site with the same issue as me.

i emailed video to her and am awaiting a phone call but i was told by people on this site that you are the guy to get in contact with.

i took apart one of my old motors. i found the rear bearing is noisy and the ball bearings are actually blued. you can feel a major difference between the front and rear bearing. i think the rear bearing is getting hot because it sits in a rubber mount and there is no heatsink for it. the front bearing has the shaft that goes to the metal squirl cage. i think that keeps the front bearing cool. plus the motors fan is up front.

here are the viedos of my noise... any input is welcomed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfSwRTaJ9FA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXNtirjbSAs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMT32LuQG1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIgPsDi5CRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNIUvEuZ9MY

 

[imacman]

i am having problems with my room air blower... after a few weeks or more of operation it starts making horrible noises... i am on my 4th blower and this one is doing the same thing.......

All of the Englander stoves use the same blower AFAIK, and yours looks just like the one in my 10-cpm. That said, I never hear noises like that.

Since you must be pretty adept at removing the blower, have you removed the blower from the stove completely and run it on a bench, or while holding it (using a power "test cord")? To me, it sounds like the fan is hitting the metal blower enclosure, but if the noise goes away while it's run out of the stove, I'd be looking into how it's mounted in the stove.

When you install it, do you tighten the bolts up evenly, a little at a time?

 

[breklaw]

The other thing you might want to try is running it on a cheater cord with full 110 VAC to see if it runs any quieter, thereby eliminating the control board as a potential problem, assuming of course, that the control board does what it is supposed to do otherwise. It would be a very rare problem, but there are some electronics that could partially fail in such a way as to make a motor make unusual noises.

 

[hnkstang50]

The blower cage is for sure not hitting anything I had it off and there're no signs of rubbing and plenty of clearance. I tighten the bolts evenly.

The noise is for sure the rear bearing. Also when you spin it by hand it has a growl. I can try taking it out and running it on a cord but like I said new blower motors last a while before the noise starts so I doubt its the mother board. Also I have a new board due to a glitch on the old one.

 

[imacman]

Have you oiled the motor?

 

[hnkstang50]

This motor is sealed ball bearings. No way to oil them.

I found in a different post that this is a know issue among other stove manufactures. Breckwell and fasco designed a new motor with better cooling on the rear bearing

 

[imacman]

OK, I guess the newer stoves ('09 +) use ball bearings in the convection blowers....my '08 10-cpm still has the sleeve bearings, and can be oiled.

Hopefully, Mike will see this thread and respond.......but remember this is his busiest time of the whole year.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

This motor is sealed ball bearings. No way to oil them.

I found in a different post that this is a know issue among other stove manufactures. Breckwell and fasco designed a new motor with better cooling on the rear bearing

You should note that the particular blower you are referring too is a combustion blower and normally is in a hotter environment than the convection blower.

 

[breklaw]

Even the "sealed" bearings will wick oil into them. I use "TUFF OIL", a teflon "pen" oiler I find at auto parts stores. Soak the baerings on both sides and spin by hand for a while and watch the oil wick in. Takes a bit of time, but I have got many more years out of my combustion blower this way, and I quiets down like you wouldn't believe.

 

[hnkstang50]

This motor is sealed ball bearings. No way to oil them.

I found in a different post that this is a know issue among other stove manufactures. Breckwell and fasco designed a new motor with better cooling on the rear bearing

You should note that the particular blower you are referring too is a combustion blower and normally is in a hotter environment than the convection blower.

I am talking about my room air blower not combustion. I think its a heat issue as the balls are blued in the bearing.

Yea I understand its a busy time of the year. Just frustrating being my second season of this and my last phonecall with englander being told its normal to be noisy.

Thanks for your input guys

 

[littlesmokey]

If the bearing is failing, is it your fan housing that is causing the problem? Can you pull the whole assembly and bench test it? If this is a basic face mount, there has to be something that is increasing the load on the back of the motor that shouldn't be there. When you replace the motor, is it just the motor or the whole assembly?

 

[hnkstang50]

If the bearing is failing, is it your fan housing that is causing the problem? Can you pull the whole assembly and bench test it? If this is a basic face mount, there has to be something that is increasing the load on the back of the motor that shouldn't be there. When you replace the motor, is it just the motor or the whole assembly?

Whole assembly

I think the front bearing stays cooler due to the motors fan plus the squirl cage is like a heat sink on the share. The rear bearing has no way to release the heat

 

[imacman]

Is the bearing that gets hot inside the case completely enclosed? The ball bearings on my comb. blower are open to the air (yes, I know I'm talking about a comb. blower vs your conv. blower), and I have had 0 problems with it....it runs almost silently.

Can you remove the blower assembly & take some pics of the motor plate on the bearing side that's causing the problems?

Oh, and what I think Smokey was referring to in his post was that the stove owners that reported problems with noisy blowers were all referring to their combustion blowers...they are obviously in a much higher heat setting.

 

[littlesmokey]

Not being a motor specialist it seems to me the majority of the load is carried by the front bearing, and would naturally run hotter because of the squirrel cage hanging off the end. The outside bearing is not enclosed, has good air circulation and does not have the load. Bluing is a sign of overheating, but failing in a few weeks is something more than a bad bearing... Sounds like you are going to have to wait for Mike to chime in and help.

 

[jtakeman]

I watched the vids, Its kind of hard to see behind the motor. Can you post a clear photo of the blower motor and what is located by the bearing that has blued? I am thinking its next to a hot surface like the exhaust outlet or something. So it is likely the location is the issue, Not so much the blower itself. Or the motor is injesting hot air. Something caused the motor to get too hot.

 

[hnkstang50]

ok behind the blower is nothing hot... the fresh air inlet is close to it and exhaust is about 5 inches away and its heat wrapped. i can touch teh motor and its very hot.. but nothing hot around it. ive read that the type of blowers these are (shunt pole or somehint like that) run hot.

what i mean by the front bearing staying cooler is it is conected to meal parts that have moving air like the squirl cage so it can disapate its heat. the rear bearing is completelty inclosed.

here are some pics.. that small fan 'cools" the motor but iut doesnt really seem to move any air and if anything only cools the front of the motor. you can also see how the front bearing touches the shaft that also has cooler metal parts that touch the same shaft... thats where im getting the heat sinc theory. the rear bearing only goes in its rubber moutn (the orange part).

also the motor that imacman posted up has vent holes in the back plate. mine does not and i think this might also be keeping in heat.

 

[imacman]

That motor/bearing set-up looks EXACTLY like the one on my 10-cpm COMBUSTION motor. And mine is exposed to a LOT more heat than the convection unit, and I have had "0" problems since I installed it in 9/09.

So, since you have it apart, I'll assume that when you spin the bearings by hand, one of them makes the noise and is very rough. Even though their "sealed", have you tried putting oil on both sides of the race that contacts the shaft?

Here's a pic of the end of my combustion blower motor:

 

[littlesmokey]

The whole fan assembly you are showing is meant to cool that bearing, not the motor. The mount and disc are a heat sink and the fan is to circulate are under the sink and over the end of the motor. That is a significant design improvement over the normal open ended motor Imacman is showing. Still doesn't answer the question, what is causing the loading on the bearing that is generating the heat???? I suspect, but have nothing to support my idea that there is a lateral torque on the motor shaft that is amplified at the end of the motor. Or in simple words, the poor motor is crabbing down the shaft.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well, I for one would want that bearing to be held by some nice thermal mass and not rubber, however given how the blower is mounted in your stove I don't think additional holes in the end plate would be of much help. Maybe longer slots might since the heat is likely coming from the coil via the shaft, this would allow for a better air flow across that area in general.

How tight is that bearing on the shaft (is there much slop)?

 

[breklaw]

If you can get it that far apart, you can buy and replace the bearing for around 5 bucks. Google bearings where you live- there are stores with these on the shelf and they can match them up for you, and even press the old one off and the new one on. They MAY even have a better bearing for you! Also, make a few holes in that end plate! Can't hurt!
Bill

 

[hnkstang50]

Yes the back bearing is noisy and you can feel the rumble. The front one by the fan is very smooth

lubbing the shaft between the bearing will do nothing. The bearing is press fitted on the shaft. The part that spins in the ball bearings on the race internally behind the black seal.

 

[hnkstang50]

If you can get it that far apart, you can buy and replace the bearing for around 5 bucks. Google bearings where you live- there are stores with these on the shelf and they can match them up for you, and even press the old one off and the new one on. They MAY even have a better bearing for you! Also, make a few holes in that end plate! Can't hurt!
Bill

I like that idea... will try that.

O also my combustion blower is the same bearings. That one is no problems I think because it spins slower with less load so less heat

 

[imacman]

lubbing the shaft between the bearing will do nothing. The bearing is press fitted on the shaft. The part that spins in the ball bearings on the race internally behind the black seal.

You might be surprised. I'd try putting a few drops of light oil (3 in 1) on the edge of the race next to the black seal and see if it wicks itself inside....hey, at this point, you have nothing to lose by trying it, and it might quiet it down a little.

 

[littlesmokey]

I'm sure the mounting disc is a poly that both acts as a damper and a flexible mount. Just for curiosity sake, how balanced is the blower end? If you spin it by hand, does it stop with the same spot down?

Take your parts to a motor shop and ask them if you can upgrade the bearing. As previously mentioned the part is cheap and should be minimal to have it pressed in. I have a table saw motor that about every 400 hrs of hard use I take to a shop and have the bearings replaced and they charge me retail for the parts and do the install for free. Should be able to get the same kind of deal. If you are near Denver, you can try WW Grainger's and they won't install, but can match the part.

 

[hnkstang50]

lubbing the shaft between the bearing will do nothing. The bearing is press fitted on the shaft. The part that spins in the ball bearings on the race internally behind the black seal.

You might be surprised. I'd try putting a few drops of light oil (3 in 1) on the edge of the race next to the black seal and see if it wicks itself inside....hey, at this point, you have nothing to lose by trying it, and it might quiet it down a little.

Ok I see what you mean will try that