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Auger motor replacement

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by kutch2001, Oct 27, 2007.

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  1. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    I have an englander stove (25-pdvc) made in 2000 and the motor on one of the auger gears went south on me. Confident it is only the motor as can still turn all the gears inside it fine and none of them look stripped (took it apart as out of warranty anyways).

    My question is how can i decipher all the garbly gook on websites that just sell the motor. Looking at the auger itself, and the motor on it, here is the information:
    MERKLE-KORFF IND.
    Model 4515UI-063
    115V. 60 HZ. ZP (some type of logo after)
    Rated .48 amps
    S5867B 17800 (another type of logo.

    I have seen similar motors, just the motor, for between $20 and $50 depending on motor, instead of $100+ for the whole assembly.

    Not sure of link policy, so please alter as necessary, but this is where i located motors similar to mine:
    Code:
    http://www.cshincorporated.com/index.php/cPath/109_47_64
    They also have the complete gearbox there but again, I want to try and avoid the whole gearbox route as it's not practical from a cost perspective.

    Or should I just stop by the local Grainger's on Monday to see if they have a motor that would fit and let them do all the figuring out for me?

    Any assistance would be appreciated!

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  2. JohnnyBravo

    JohnnyBravo New Member

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    maybe take it to a small motor or alternator repair shop ive had good luck with shops in town here.
  3. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    need to make sure the motor runs in the proper direction of rotation , ESW augers run CCW (looking from the front) im not sure which way the MK electric motor itself runs though.
  4. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    Thanks Mike for the information. What i will do is carefully remove the good motor to check rotation and plug it into an outlet, then try and find a replacement. Might have to call up that company mentioned above on monday to explain what I want to do unless ESW might have motors kicking around they want to unload?

    JohnnyBravo, never thought of local places but will try and check out on Monday before calling the website. Most places will be closed tomorrow.. :(

    Also going to try the dump tomorrow see if i can find a replacement for free. Had something close but it didn't have the "teeth" on the end of the motor shaft.
  5. cogger

    cogger Member

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    I have the same exact scenrio for my Whitfield, good motor but the gear box is gone. If you don't mind please repost to this thread when you find a someone who specializes in this type of work
  6. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    I will do that RingOfFire.

    However, have had no luck finding someone locally as of yet (3 motor shops so far). So, think I will have to bite the bullet, even though I HATE to admit defeat (even short term), and purchase the motor/gearbox combo. Found a place where could get the motors individually but no clue what I'm looking at and by the time I figure it out the high temperature will be 32 degrees...

    One of the local guys I went to said not worth his time to try and fix... But am sure there is a way to do it.

    I have had some luck locating used stoves on craigslist but they all sold or long long drive away by the time I see. Not sure if that will help in your case.
  7. GVA

    GVA Minister of Fire

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    Probably just needs a new coil as those types of motors there is nothing else that can fail other than bearings...
  8. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    Yes, it does need a new coil (which I would highly prefer) but not sure where to get the coil. However, did order 3 auger motors from company in my first post in the thread. One is "guaranteed" to work and the other two are "test cases", which were only $10 each for used motors. If they work great, if not, oh well.

    The motor type on the auger, from what little I know, is a C type of motor, and from what people have told me it is not worth repairing those. Did see new C type motor things on that website for 20-35 each, but again, no clue what I am looking at and the working motor I have doesn't tell me much. Google didn't return anything I found useful on it.

    Sorry for being too "cheap", if that's the right word, but am all 'bout cutting costs and getting best bang for the buck, so to speak, while getting good parts and keeping jobs in the USA... (yes, a pipe dream but that is my goal).
  9. eernest4

    eernest4 New Member

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    go to ww granger , bring the old shaded pole ac induction motor with you and ask the salesman to match it up.

    fyi the ac shaded pole induction motor is reversable in rotation by taking the rotor out and reinstalling in to the other side of the laminated core that you took it out of, however, there are sometimes mechanical or mounting issues to prevent this.

    This is a field I am a expert in with 20 years experience. Larry's fixall appliance repair ,opened 1977 , closed 1997.

    It is somewhat rare for the coil to burn out in the shaded pole induction motor and indicated too much heat was involved. I dont think the heat came from burining pellets given the location of auger motors on most pellet stoves, unelse yours is in a particularly hot location, i will assume this is not the case.

    therefore the heat was caused by too much current draw through the motor. The current would not increase unelse the motor rpm's were drastically reduced, either by bad bearings or too much load on the motor and you did not say anything about bad bearings & you did say that the auger assembly turns with the force of your hand but does it/will it turn with the force a shaded pole motor can develop without slowing down to the point where it draws too much current and burns up the coil.

    You might want 2 check the other auger drive to see if it turns a lot easier, by hand than the one with the burnt motor because if it does, it means hard turning of the burnt motor auger drive and a replacement motor may not last a heating season,if that, unelse you free up the
    problem auger drive.

    on the other hand, the failure could have been caused by a tempory jam that cleared itself out, but already fried the insulation on the shaded pole motor before clearing itself.

    One time , I told a friend to sell a stock when it was very high and he ignored me. he would have
    earned 40,000.oo but he kept it,today it is worth 2000.oo cost him 38,000.oo to ignore me.
    opp=other peoples problems, no sweat off my nose.

    good luck with your problem.
  10. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    It is always best to replace the augermotor and gearbox.
    The way the are mounted in an angle (not flat like they are designed for) it puts all the lube down to one side of the gear box after a few years and the gears wear.
    it also puts a strain on the bushing for th motor.

    As far as Backwords motor all you need to do is Take the Stack off and flip the stack over to make the motor turn the the other way.
    http://www.hearthtools.com/wood/augernoworkie.jpg
  11. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    That is a classic couple of statements there... :)

    On a different note, thanks to everyone for explaining how these motors work. I have ordered them already and they were shipped out. If I can dink around with them and get the cheaper motors to work, will turn around and sell the new auger motor for cost to someone else in need through craigslist. Will have more confidence if another motor goes south too.

    Will try the grainger in hartford this week to see if they have the motor. One of the motor places I went to said it wasn't really fruitful to fix it.

    Larry’s fixall appliance repair sounds vaguely familiar, or something along those lines does.

    Again, thanks to everyone.. Will update in couple days when get motors. and they're tested.
  12. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Grainger sells Dayton Gear reduction motors. ??
    THEY ARE CRAP. I have not taken one apart in years but the gears are POT metal
    the motors are weak and LOW torque. And Very Noisy

    They use a thin lube in the gear box and every one I have seen in OLD 1989-1993 Martin, Scott and other Dinasor stoves that used them there was a puddle of grease inside the stove under the gear box
  13. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    Little update on my auger motor replacement...

    Ordered 3 motors from this website: http://www.cshincorporated.com and got them on Friday. 1 new and 2 used.

    Thanks to hearthtools and eernest4 I was able to figure out easily how to reverse direction of auger motor, but unfortunately one side of the plastic around the copper winding would not let me screw the motor back into place. I am awaiting a response from the company to see how they say to reverse the motor. I tried filling in the remaining space with washers but it was a little hokey even for me and the motor wouldn't turn (probably because something was out of alignment. Need to reverse the direction as ordered the wrong one.

    However, as part of my order, also received 2 $10 used auger motors (in clearance area). Tried these and they worked fine, but the gearbox is a square and not a rectangle, the shaft is a tiny bit skinnier, and the electrical connectors are also not correct. The square gearbox presented a problem as there was nothing stopping it from rotating completely around (not what i want) if there was a load of pellets in the hopper. So, with some zipties and a piece of wood (yes, bad i know), have secured it in place at least for the moment until can find a nice piece of metal to use and some way of securing it (or reverse the other one). The wood furring strip I am using temporarily keeps the square motor from turning. This is for the top auger motor so if there is a failure at some point then the fire inside will eventually stop burning..

    Have not had any luck finding a replacement motor for the original motor that went bad, but will keep looking..

    On a side note, got my new control board and had no problems installing that correctly, and would like to thank Mike for his immense help with that. We tried to save the old board but was too far gone. Did take apart the old board, and just for hee-haws (or sh*ts n giggles) will try to repair it. Think found the two resisters (or capacitors?) that caused it to malfunction and will try replacing those to see if it'll work. They are all black or brown indicating they went poof.. The new board functions but I kinda like to stay original if possible.

    Going to keep eye on craigslist or bix box stores for clearance sales now.. :)

    Another side note: As hearthtools also pointed out, the square motors I got for $10 each are Dayton Model 2Z804C. Although not correct for the stove will keep them as a backup. Hopefully will be good for that purpose.
  14. hearthtools

    hearthtools Moderator Emeritus

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    Just my opinion
    I think paying full price for a ALL new auger and gearbox is worth not wasting time
    Screwing around trying to fix things and using used crap.
    You saved what about $30 but my time is worth more that that So I would have just bought a new augermotor and gear box.
  15. jtp10181

    jtp10181 Minister of Fire

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    I was thinking the same thing.... as I was reading this thread earlier. I thought maybe he had saved like $100 or something with all the effort being put in.
  16. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I would say that it all depends on what floats your boat... Doing it for a living it makes sense to buy the official part and not waste the time that could be better spent on other stuff. However when working on your own, it can be as much the joy of tinkering as it is the money saved... I know I've had times when I spent more time and effort on something than it would have been worth to replace it, just because it was fun and / or educational...

    Gooserider
  17. Mr Whitfield

    Mr Whitfield Feeling the Heat

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    I like to fix things, if I can to save money thats great. If you find away to fix the motor that great it may help us all . I'm sure for the person that can't fix things, they will call someone out to fix it. that person fixing it would want to use new parts.( Don't want to be called out again). I'm sure if your selling stove parts for a living, you want people to buy new. But let's remember this forum is to help people that want to fix things if they can. My 2 cents
  18. kutch2001

    kutch2001 New Member

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    Hopefully the picture attached is viewable as that explains most of it. It contains my cost comparison for the auger motor(s). Remember, my purchase consisted of 3 auger motors for less than the cost of a "new original" auger motor from the manufacturer. There were two auger motors for $10 each, and one auger motor for about $84 each. The total, before shipping, is $104. The $84 auger motor is brand new while the two $10 auger motors are used, but in good visual shape, no leaks, and clean. Ordered this many as I had no clue if any of them would work.

    If the used auger motor lasts for 10 years, and a new auger motor lasts for 10 years, I could save $12/year, so my total savings could be $120.00. If the new "generic" auger motor lasts 10 years versus 10 years for the manufacturer's auger motor, my savings would be $46.00.

    In terms of cost savings over a new auger motor straight from the manufacturer, if the $10 used auger motor lasts 1.5 years (1 year 6 months), then it will still save money compared to an auger motor straight from the manufacturer that lasts 20 years.

    If I was successful in my original quest, then the motor itself would be repaired for $25 or so and should last as long as a new auger motor, unless gears wore out. I would have liked to replace just the motor and not the whole gear assembly as I try and shy away from the throw away society that we currently live in. Keep something as long as it's serviceable, less pollution in landfills, less energy required to make a new gearbox or recycle it, etc etc. Even though this is a small item, small items do add up.

    Created the range of yearly costs in the picture as did not have any type of data on how long they last, other than my limited experience. And, with anything mechanical and/or electronic, there is no way to tell exactly how long the life expectancy will be.

    If, for some reason, I have to use all 3 of these auger motors, the total savings could be about $286 based on a 10 year life span and auger motors staying the same cost. As it is now, if I only use the 1 auger motor currently installed, still save $26 (counting cost of all 3 motors).

    Thankyou for all the helpful tips and support!! Although I am a noob at this board, I would like to share some of the "unique" insights I have, even if this is not the proper place. No disrespect to the manufacturers of any pellet stove as they put out a good high quality product and I support the ones I have good experience with.

    **Begin rant**
    Some of us heat with alternative fuels, alternative meaning not fuel oil, natural gas, or electricity, due to cost savings, better for the environment, less reliance on foreign suppliers, all of these, or others un-named.

    Part of my original research into trying to find an auger motor was searching to determine if someone else did the same. I dislike paying retail for anything and always look for alternatives (such as alternative heat) while trying to think outside of the norms of a throw-away society. Not finding anyone else who went with an alternative auger motor (alternative being not a direct replacement from manufacturer) was like Christopher Columbus and going into uncharted territory. As part of this, there is a learning curve. If had a motor specialist I coud call up and say, "Hey, where can I get a replacement for such n such", then time spent might have been less than an hour instead of the many hours I spent going around to motor shops (they looked at me quizzically), combing the internet, and reading books.

    Regardless, I was somewhat successful in my crusade by saving money, and can only hope that someone else will feel the desire to use the preliminary research done, expand on it, and possibly present a better list of alternatives.

    Regarding my "junk" used motor, do not know of anyone who has bought everything brand new. They all have bought varying used items at one point in time or another. If haven't had the chance yet, will sooner or later. This goes from buying a house, shopping for a car, renting a hotel room (yes, they're used), to looking for a propylactic (ok, even that's my limit). So, there is no sense to the "new is better" thing (except for propylactics). From what I personally have seen, the older items typically are made much better (not specifically auger motors) and typically last far longer than modern Walmart type items. So long as it's cost effective in the long run then I am happy.
    **End rant**

    Again, many thanks to everyone!

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