Basement stove enclosure report

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

corkyscott

New Member
Hearth Supporter
Aug 19, 2009
24
Central Vermont
Hi everyone, as promised, following is my report of the installation of our new stove and the enclosure I built around it. First, a little background: We live in central Vermont and have heated with wood since we built our log house over 34 years ago. Originally we used a Riteway stove installed on our main floor. That worked, but we had to bring in the wood every several days which took up space was messy and when we decided to have kids, we immediately knew that we'd either need to fence in the stove or move it downstairs to the basement. When I built the concrete block foundation, I framed in a small door which I thought could be used to toss in wood. So we had a regular block chimney built from the cellar up, the original was metalbestos, and moved the stove downstairs. At this point I bought and welded up a big size Freeflow and winched it down the stairs and hooked it up into the chimney. A contractor friend donated a bunch of large diameter ductwork, which I hung up to conduct the heat to the corners of the living/dining room and the back rooms. When we added on an extension out back on sauna tubes for the kids, I ran the ductwork out to them. I fully insulated the floor, and wrapped insulation around the ductwork that was exposed under the extension.

To get the heat out to the rooms, I fabricated a heavy sheet metal enclosure around the freeflow, and wrapped it and the plenum with insulation so that as much of the heat as possible would flow to the registers. Some of the ductwork was simply plated over space between floor joists. By 1979, this was how we heated the house. The Freeflow was a huge stove with a capacity to really pack a lot of wood in it. It typically burned all night although it took a lot of careful packing and cautious adjustment of the airflow. Nothing was automatic, you adjusted the air flow and that was it. Too much air, the stove would REALLY heat up. Not enough and it would smolder without really giving off heat. The ductwork worked fine for the main rooms of the house, but really did not flow horizontally enough to get out to the kids rooms, so I had to add a duct fan to help it along. That did work, but then robbed the heat for the rest of the house. Our two kids often came out to the big central register directly over the stove to dress in the morning standing on it.

Fast forward 30 years to now. Three weeks ago we had our new Dutchwest stove delivered and removed the old Freeflow, which had cracked tubes internally and smoked us out whenever we had a fire, until it heated up enough to close the cracks. I removed the enclosure and plenum in order to facilitate the installation of the new stove.

I spent the last week fabricating a new enclosure which I attached to the newly hung plenum. Originally, the plenum fed three ducts: one that led straight up to the main register over the stove, and the other two main ducts fed via huge curved elbows out of the plenum. I removed everything from the plenum, then installed the elbows inside it and hoisted the entire plenum up to the wooden frame below the main register and screwed it in place. You can look down through the register and see the two big elbows, but there is still plenty of room for the heated air to flow around the elbows and up through the register. None of this was scientific, I used the OTLAR method: Oh that looks about right.

I reconnected what was left of the elbows to the two main trunk lines using scrap from the old plenum, which did not need to be so big anymore. Finally, I created an enclosure around the stove using channeled metal roofing. It was on sale at a local hardware store because it had been stored outside for years and had a little corrosion. I drew a 4 foot square around the stove and cut each piece of roofing to a taper and leaned them against the plenum. I used 2X2" external sheet metal corner moulding to tie the edges together. The corner moulding went on the inside and was attached using self tapping screws. I cut an opening for the stove door and framed around the opening using the corner moulding. I left that open. Then I cut off the plenum about an inch below where the roofing leaned against it because the plenum otherwise would have hung down about a foot below where the roofing touched it.

The stove required short cool burns to harden up the paint without smoking too much, gradually letting the fire get hotter and hotter. That's all done now and the stove can burn as hot as necessary.

Being one of the modern airtight stoves, it is a little balky about starting. The stove door needs to be kept cracked open a little in order to supply enough air to light the kindling and main chunks of wood. But once the fire has heated up the firebox and exhaust pipe and chimney, it burns as advertized and I have to turn off some of the air flow.

How does it work? All the main building registers, including the far corner ones are flowing heat. The kids are gone now so I don't bother running the rear room duct fan. It doesn't take much wood for the stove to produce a lot of heat and the enclosure and registers are working fine. Naturally, it takes some time to get everything up to heat. I'd say that it takes about an hour before the temperature starts rising. I've enclosed a couple of pictures of the enclosure. Well, I take that back, I'm apparently unable to post the pictures as they are too large. I'll try later.

Corky Scott
 
Sounds like you were very busy! Will be looking forward to seeing the pics.

Steve
 
Here is a picture of the stove and the enclosure. Hope the size of the picture allows it to come through this time.

Corky Scott
 

Attachments

  • Stove pics 004.jpg
    Stove pics 004.jpg
    101.8 KB · Views: 2,140
So what you have there is like a giant monster plenum which keeps the hot air collected and ...hotter. Yeah I can appreciate how that would work.
 
Pretty clever, I saw something similar in a house a couple years back, didnt look as good as yours.
 
corkyscott said:
Ghettontheball said:
i wouldnt run heat thru a joist cavity without a pipe

Why not?

Thanks, Corky Scott

Silly things like code and insurance. Neither seem to be a concern here. IIRC Joist space plenums were only used for return air, not heated air.
 
Ghettontheball said:
corkyscott said:
Ghettontheball said:
i wouldnt run heat thru a joist cavity without a pipe

Why not?

Thanks, Corky Scott
dries the wood real good & might ignite, floor upstairs might warp or whatever from localized heat

I checked via google to see at what temperature wood could ignite. One source stated that spontaneous ignition required exposure to a temperature of 475F. But another showed pictures of wood that had ignited after years of exposure to a hot water pipe where the temperature was 170F.

So it appears to be a valid concern. I don't know how hot the temperature gets in the wood duct, but I'll see if I can find out. One thing in my favor is that where the trunk enters the closest joist space, it's about 12 feet away from the plenum. The other joist space is 20 feet away.

At no time in the past 30 years would I characterize the temperature of the air exiting the corner registers to be other than warm, not hot.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Corky Scott
 
Also, from an insurance / code standpoint, there is not supposed to be any "duct work" that is open within 10 feet of a wood stove.

pen
 
pen said:
Also, from an insurance / code standpoint, there is not supposed to be any "duct work" that is open within 10 feet of a wood stove.

pen

I guess I don't understand this. If the stove is supposed to feed the heat into the ductwork, how can it do that if you are not allowed to have open ductwork within 10 feet of the stove? Can you cite the code you are referencing?

Corky Scott
 
Corky,

I appreciate you're innovativeness--but it is not code allowed. If you want wood heated forced air, you are supposed to buy a wood furnace, period. Furnaces are designed/tested/rated to not blow superheated air/fire/smoke/CO through the ducting.

As nice as your design and operating protocol might be in practice, it is clear that a (stupid) operator could get a flue flow reversal (from the negative pressure on the plenum) and fill the whole house with CO. Also, how hot your ducts get is inversely proportional to the CFM you are pulling. IF your blower failed (or significantly underperformed) or you had a major overfire due to a stove crack, you could circulate very hot air through your ducting and set off secondary fires. It is such rare hardware/operator failure modes that kill people--and your config seems to have several possible ones off the top of my (inexpert) head.

sorry.
 
woodgeek said:
Corky,

I appreciate you're innovativeness--but it is not code allowed. If you want wood heated forced air, you are supposed to buy a wood furnace, period. Furnaces are designed/tested/rated to not blow superheated air/fire/smoke/CO through the ducting.

As nice as your design and operating protocol might be in practice, it is clear that a (stupid) operator could get a flue flow reversal (from the negative pressure on the plenum) and fill the whole house with CO. Also, how hot your ducts get is inversely proportional to the CFM you are pulling. IF your blower failed (or significantly underperformed) or you had a major overfire due to a stove crack, you could circulate very hot air through your ducting and set off secondary fires. It is such rare hardware/operator failure modes that kill people--and your config seems to have several possible ones off the top of my (inexpert) head.

sorry.

Thanks for your comment "woodgeek". I think I need to describe this system a bit more. This is not a forced hot air system. There are no fans in the plenum, it is simply a big collector of heat. The "system" relies on the natural property of heated air to rise in order to function. This being the case, I don't understand how there could ever be a negative pressure in the plenum, do you?

In fact, I'm not sure it is accurate to describe the enclosure around the stove as a plenum, because that noun apparently refers to a pressurized box. What I have is simply a shroud to collect heat from the fire. The only fan I used was a small duct fan located 20 feet down the trunkline going out to the kid's rooms, and that isn't being used anymore.

The stove is just sitting out in the middle of the basement floor. The rising heat from the stove is redirected by the shroud to various corners of the house where it would not otherwise go. No fans are involved, no pressurized plenum. If I could have angled the ducts upward from the heat collector shroud to the registers to assist the hot air, I would have done that. But it would have REALLY cut down on headroom in the basement and greatly reduced it's useability.

Because there are no fans and the heating system is not pressurized, the heat takes a long time to begin to make a noticeable difference. About an hour after starting the fire, I can see the temperature gauge slowly begin to rise in the room above.

Thanks again. Corky Scott
 
Corky,

Thanks for the clarification. I (now) get that it is a natural convection driven system. Still, I am concerned that there is no check on the maximum temp of the delivered air. I get that the normal operating state is for the air to be 'warm' and not hot. But what if the current air flow gets hindered by a kid throwing something over the outlet grill, changes in air pressure in the house due to other appliances or bathroom vents, (again) an untended overfire due to a chimney fire or a cracked stove, etc. then the air could get a LOT hotter.

While you don't have a blower, the same natural convention driving your system does pull a negative pressure on the stove's inlet--in effect you have two chimneys in competition, one taller and venting outside, and the other shorter and venting inside. Whether this is ok or not depends on the (real) chimney not being clogged or too cold (exterior) and the amount of makeup air in your basement (unknown).

I realize both of these scenarios are opposites (not enough flow vs too much in your duct), but the major point is that problems will arise not during normal operation, but in various fault states. That is, we do NOT use a clearance from combustible that gives 200F surface temps in normal operation, but one that should result in no more than that surface temp if the stove were in its ultimate, 1000F, dull red overfire while you and your kids were upstairs in dreamland. So you verifying that the duct doesn't get to to 200F in normal use is irrelevant--if you wanted to pass code, you would need to intentionally test your config in a serious overfire and then verify it still was <200F or <250F or some agreed upon figure.

So, its clear that your system is out of code and uninsurable. I am merely trying to motivate the 'sense' of that denial.

Any 'pros' want to touch this?
 
BG--an oldie but a goodie. Did I read too much elk during my formative period??

I guess I am AOK with folks using passive convection through stairways, open plan, floor vents, etc. to get heat from their basement stoves to their upstairs. My stove is in a split-level, finished basement and convection works for me.

I guess what I didn't like here was the enclosure--seemed like it was trouble. If I closed off my (12'x15') room with my stove, I might heat that room to 90F, in an overfire, maybe I would get it to 120F. Other than melting the candles in there, nothing is gonna happen worst case scenario. If Corky wants to have a floor vent over his stove, or even a little hood on the ceiling to catch hot rising air and feed it into the vent, then I have no problem. If he had a fusible damper in the vent, then most folks might even say it was safe.

However, that metal enclosure around the entire stove has the potential to catch nearly all of the stove's output (that is the idea), and channel it into an uninsulated duct next to his floor joists. We wouldn't let Corky install the stove 1" from wood (w/o a lab tested heat shield), but we will let him take most of the stove output and funnel it into a metal duct hanging from his floor joists? I think it is just getting 'greedy'. The conventional approaches for heat distribution (as detailed in BG's thread) will work nearly as well without the safety issues.
 
BeGreen said:

Thanks for the thread, it was interesting. Also, I realise that despite further explanation about the stove, the enclosure and the distribution system, I still have not given enough information for all to understand the situation. We live in a log house that has cathedral ceilings. The upstairs is a half floor that looks down on the floor below. The house is roughly 1500 square feet, which is not a big house. That includes the kids rooms out back, which like I mentioned previously, don't get heated when no one is in those rooms. So the house is more like 1200 to 1300 square feet.

So when the main floor is heated, pretty much everything gets heated. Also, we learned a long time ago that we should prop open the basement door to allow air to flow down, and residual heated air to come up. So that is a part of normal operations for us.

All I can say is that it surely seems to work for us. We've gone through some EXTREMELY cold winters, one of which I remember distinctly when it went below zero for 2 1/2 weeks and never came up in that time (that was Feb into March). During the night, it would be anywhere from 20 to 30 below, rising to a "hot" of maybe 10 below during the day. I'd come home from work, pop the hood of my Subaru and lug the battery in to keep it warm. I'd leave a shop light under the hood to try to warm the engine a little. In the morning I'd reinstall the battery and head off to work. Engine heaters sold like crazy that winter.

My In Laws were up to visit at that time. I had to rake coals out of the stove and shove them under their huge engined Chrysler station wagon to get it to start because the starter absolutely would not turn the engine over while it was unheated. This was back in 1979 or so.

Anyway, thanks all for the inputs.

Corky Scott
 
I have a further update regarding the performance of the Dutch West CDW300007 stove. This is a modern non catalytic stove that has a door in the front with a large piece of glass. The firebox is fire brick lined and the top of the firebox has perforated tubes that supply air to ignite unburned gasses that otherwise would simply exit up the chimney. We got the plate steel version rather than cast iron because as I have mentioned, it's in the basement and not part of the house decor. It didn't need to be pretty.

Aside from being a bit balky about starting up when cold, once the fire has caught and has heated up the firebox and chimney, I can close the door and leave it alone. It seems to produce a lot of heat for very little wood in the firebox. So far I've only put in just two chunks of wood in at a time, and it burns slowly but produces lots of heat. At the moment I'm using up a pile of white pine that I split from a huge tree that got blown over last summer. So at the moment I'm not even using hardwood and yet the stove burns for what to me is an impressive amount of time. I think it can do that because when I close the air vent to half, the wood burns slowly, yet the stove re-ignites the gasses. When I burned pine in the Free Flow, it was like burning paper. I've gone outside to look while the fire was so seemingly slow burning and there was no smoke coming out of the chimney.

Further, when I added one more chunk of pine about an hour after I started the fire, it caught right away, which is what it should do of course, but I wasn't sure it would happen. I wondered if I'd have to crack the door to get it caught. But no, with the firebox up to heat, it just caught fire and added to the length of burn.

I'm very impressed, and pleased with the stove.

Corky Scott
 
corkyscott said:
Ghettontheball said:
corkyscott said:
Ghettontheball said:
i wouldnt run heat thru a joist cavity without a pipe

Why not?

Thanks, Corky Scott
dries the wood real good & might ignite, floor upstairs might warp or whatever from localized heat

I checked via google to see at what temperature wood could ignite. One source stated that spontaneous ignition required exposure to a temperature of 475F. But another showed pictures of wood that had ignited after years of exposure to a hot water pipe where the temperature was 170F.
....

Corky Scott

If it makes you rest easier, I would call BS on what ever site claimed to have ignited wood exposed to a hot water pipe at 170F. You can't even ignite gasoline at 170F so I'm quite sure a block of wood is safe as well.

As for the stove-furnace...'sturnace'? 'furnove'? - it's an interesting design. A bit scary, but interesting! :) Seems to have served you well over the years - though I am curious, why not just get a wood furnace to install directly to your plenum?
 
Corky Scott[/quote]

If it makes you rest easier, I would call BS on what ever site claimed to have ignited wood exposed to a hot water pipe at 170F. You can't even ignite gasoline at 170F so I'm quite sure a block of wood is safe as well.

As for the stove-furnace...'sturnace'? 'furnove'? - it's an interesting design. A bit scary, but interesting! :) Seems to have served you well over the years - though I am curious, why not just get a wood furnace to install directly to your plenum?[/quote]

***
Thanks for the support. I googled duct heat, somehow, and found a website that cited the issue. It included photos of charred wood around the pipe. Obviously, the entire house or establishment did not burn down or the pictures would not be available. But I felt I should at least include the information.

For the recored, I have heated our house for 35 years using a combination of wood heat, and radiant floor heating. When we first moved in, the house was not finished and we rushed to close up and get things connected so that by Thanksgiving of '75, we were in. Lots of 2x4 walls at that point, blankets for doorways and no kids, just a dog that didn't care that there were blankets in it's way. The Riteway was situated on the main floor and I could check it at night by looking from our balcony when it popped it's themal vent and began cranking. It almost always woke us up when it did that.

Within three years, we discarded the Riteway stove, had the concret block chimney built, fabricated the freeflow and winched it downstairs and built our ducting system.

In an aside, I knew the guy who concieved of the freeflow, he was not only local, but I knew his family from NJ where he and I come from, he allowed me to come to his facility, bring some 3/8" diamond plate steel I'd come by and fabricate my own stove using it as end plate material, with his assistance. The parts were welded with a MIG type welder and I found it easy to learn to use.

But it was not efficient, and the internal tubes eventually cracked and it needed replacing. For a verbal description of the stove: picture five U shaped pipes facing each other. Weld in U shaped plates to fill in the spaces, add the back and a door, a baffle and you have the Freeflow. It not only radiated heat, it sucked up air from the floor and pumped it out the top of the tubes. it REALLY pumped heated air.

Thirty years later I had seen other woodstove installations and the Free flow tubes were cracked and leaking and I decided to upgrade my situation. I fabricated my new enclosure based on what I'd seen and so far it is working very well. Winter is not here of course, but the wood stove is backup, not our primary heating source anymore. Vermont, especially our place in Vermont, is subject to frequent power outages. When that happens we can resort to our generator, but I don't like to run that constantly. So when it's time to shut down the generator, and the power is still out and it's 15F outside, the stove comes in VERY handy.

Corky Scott
 
Wow, that free flow is soo cool looking. I would love to feel how much heat one of those throws under full burn.

As for your shroud design. I like it alot and really love creativity. I think one reply about codes/laws is always warrented, as long as you realizes these codes might be broken or bent by your creation and your following safe practices I don't see any problem with it. let us know how it works this winter with the new stove compared to the old stove.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.