Basement vs. Living room for wood insert?

[emt1581]

Also, I think you mentioned a wood rack behind the trees. . .you want your wood out baking under the summer sun, not under the shade of trees, especially if you have only ~ 4 mo. to get it dried out. If your father's Osburn is much over ~ 20 yrs old, it's "pre-EPA." As has already been mentioned, but perhaps underestimated by you, newer "EPA stoves" are much more picky about their fuel being dry. "I can always find something to burn" is not as doable with the new stoves, unless you are talking about finding something dry like 2x4's or wood bricks. Around here, nobody sells dry firewood anymore, except for the $4 bundles @ Kroger. IME, the wood vendors on Craigslist are con artists who either don't know what "seasoned" means, or don't care and will just tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Best price around here is $300 for a dump truck load that's supposed to be ~ 2.5 cords. . .works out to ~ $1 /cu ft.

I dunno...I've had awesome luck with Craigslist on everything from boats to motors and just tonight I bought a riding lawn mower...KILLER deals to!

In terms of wood... what do you classify as seasoned? Again, how do I tell if someone is reputable without knowing anyone else who buys wood??

Thanks!

-Emt1581

 

[gyrfalcon]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

I appreciate your reply. No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc... I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove. Actually having the stove is what turned me around. Get it? And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either. But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there. I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.

 

[emt1581]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

I appreciate your reply. No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc... I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove. Actually having the stove is what turned me around. Get it? And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either. But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there. I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.

How are granite counter tops impractical?

I'll have to look up those soapstone ones.

-Emt1581

 

[gyrfalcon]

Also, I think you mentioned a wood rack behind the trees. . .you want your wood out baking under the summer sun, not under the shade of trees, especially if you have only ~ 4 mo. to get it dried out. If your father's Osburn is much over ~ 20 yrs old, it's "pre-EPA." As has already been mentioned, but perhaps underestimated by you, newer "EPA stoves" are much more picky about their fuel being dry. "I can always find something to burn" is not as doable with the new stoves, unless you are talking about finding something dry like 2x4's or wood bricks. Around here, nobody sells dry firewood anymore, except for the $4 bundles @ Kroger. IME, the wood vendors on Craigslist are con artists who either don't know what "seasoned" means, or don't care and will just tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Best price around here is $300 for a dump truck load that's supposed to be ~ 2.5 cords. . .works out to ~ $1 /cu ft.

I dunno...I've had awesome luck with Craigslist on everything from boats to motors and just tonight I bought a riding lawn mower...KILLER deals to!

In terms of wood... what do you classify as seasoned? Again, how do I tell if someone is reputable without knowing anyone else who buys wood??

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Hey, then go for it. We'll still be here to hold your hand while you cry later. Unless it's been cut AND split AND stacked for a year or more, it ain't "seasoned" by the standards of modern stoves. "Seasoned" on Craigslist or even from most local dealers/suppliers generally means they cut the tree down a month or so ago and left it lying in the woods, or at best cut it to 8 or 10-foot lengths. That's only fractionally better than green.

Ask your stove dealer for a suggestion. Look up firewood dealers in the yellow pages. There's at least half-decent odds that somebody who's in the business full time will tell you the truth about when the wood was cut and whether it was split sooner than the day after you call. If somebody's charging within around 50 bucks of the regular going rate for green firewood for "seasoned," that's an immediate tip-off that it's not. And it's not necessarily because they're dishonest, it's just that the old pre-EPA stoves didn't need such dry wood, nor do open fireplaces, and most folks are going by those standards. Around where I live, where ancient "smoke dragon" stoves are the norm, some folks just wait until they run out of firewood in mid-winter, then go out and cut down a couple trees, split them up and throw them right into the stove.

Not saying you couldn't luck out. It does happen once in a blue moon. But the odds are overhwelmingly against it.

If you get in a load of green wood well split down (you may have to offer extra for that) and stack it as loosely as you can in a windy, sunny place, you might get by this winter without really major agony. Again, the Woodshed forum is the better place for this discussion, but some woods, like ash, dry much faster than others, like oak. So what kind of wood you end up with will make a major difference.

As a last resort, look for kiln-dried wood, which goes at a premium but will be dry enough to burn very well.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

I appreciate your reply. No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc... I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove. Actually having the stove is what turned me around. Get it? And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either. But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there. I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.

How are granite counter tops impractical?

I'll have to look up those soapstone ones.

-Emt1581

Ever knock over a drinking glass, never mind a wine glass, on a granite countertop?

 

[emt1581]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

I appreciate your reply. No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc... I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove. Actually having the stove is what turned me around. Get it? And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either. But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there. I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.

How are granite counter tops impractical?

I'll have to look up those soapstone ones.

-Emt1581

Ever knock over a drinking glass, never mind a wine glass, on a granite countertop?

No. I haven't knocked a glass over in years. Our everyday cookware is Corell which you can pretty much slam on concrete. I use plastic cups or beer mugs. Other than if you're clumbsy...how are they impractical?

-Emt1581

 

[ddddddden]

If the Mrs. likes granite, I would wager that she'd go for a soapstone stove in the living room. mmm. . .soapstone.

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

* Congrats on the new home purchase . . . it's always exciting to buy and move into a new home.

Thanks! Yeah it's exciting to move into a new home. Plus we have been looking for the past 6 months and came close a few times...It's great to be done with the searching and bargaining!

* You say the basement is finished . . . but is it insulated . . . and if so, how well insulated? This makes a difference . . . if the folks just ran some furring strips and attached the pine board to the walls then I would guess you would still lose a lot of heat to the surrounding cement . . . but if they put up some foam insulation before putting on the pine boards you might be OK to go with a stove in the basement.

This is a good question. I have to see if the estate owners know (daughters/sisters). The wood, if knocked on, sounds solid though. plus I know above the drop ceiling there is VERY thick insulation.

* When I was first looking at the idea of heating with wood I thought having a basement install would be great . . . which is ironic since I don't even have a basement. I figured it would keep the mess out of the house and free up more space in the living area. However, I have since changed my mind. The only time I would put a wood-burning appliance in a basement now is if I had a wood boiler or a wood furnace which would use ductwork or plumbing to carry the heated air/water throughout my entire home. I say this since a) the only real way it seems to be even remotely efficient with a woodstove and get as many BTUs as you can is to have an insulated basement (a friend of mine has a basement stove . . . and they heat their home . . . but they are also losing a lot of heat) and b) once you experience a woodstove running in your living space you cannot imagine what it would be like to not have one there -- the feel of the heat radiating out and warming you, the sound of the crackling fire, the view of the dancing flames and the secondary burn light show, the smell of the potpourri simmering on the stove top and just simply the ability to quickly and easily tell where you are in the burning cycle . . .

Now you're talking about a stove. I'm not sure she'd go for that. No fireplace, just a big black box with a glass door standing in the middle of the living room. I can't say she'd ever warm to such an idea...but I'll see what she says.

* So if I'm reading this correctly the house is set up so you can simply knock out a small section of the wall and connect to an existing flue in the living room . . . if this is true this would be a no-brainer for me . . . open up that small section of wall (after checking to make sure this is actually true) and build a hearth per your stove's specs and start enjoying the heat, the sound and the view with a free standing stove. Other than a bit of drywall work, the most difficult thing in my mind would be building the hearth . . . and this can be done simply and easily for less than $250 . . . now on the otherhand if you're determined to go with a wood-burning insert and want to build an actual fireplace . . . well then you're looking at a bit more money . . . personally I would spend the money on an attractive stove and hearth . . . and get the most BTUs possible.

You mention a stove...and a hearth. I thought stoves didn't need a hearth, they are freestanding. No?? I always thought you just needed to connect the vent/tube to the wall that leads to the chimney. If not, would you please show me a pic or two of what you're talking about.

* It's been said before, but I'll say it again . . . put your stove where you spend the bulk of your time. You'll enjoy the heat more and the "extras" that come with the sights, sounds and smells . . . and you'll be able to monitor it better.

* We like pictures . . . we're very visually oriented. We like pictures of woodpiles . . . pictures of stoves . . . and even pictures of potential areas where a stove could be installed . . . and yes a lay-out of the entire house, square footage, etc. would be useful . . . and as mentioned we like pictures of all of these things . . . or at least a drawing.

As far as pics go, once we're in I'll snap a few of the said areas. I'm certainly not going to just share an entire layout of pics for safety/security reasons...but just the areas I don't have a problem with. I will need someone I can email them to so they can post them for me though.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

RE: Stoves . . . ah, not all stoves look the same . . . sure if you want a traditional matte black cast iron stove you can get one . . . or a flat black steel stove . . . but many folks find the soapstone stoves or the enameled stoves to be mighty pretty . . . and some say it becomes a focal point of their home . . . especially in the winter. Myself, I went with a matte black stove . . . a) it was cheaper, b) it was available right then . . . however if I had to do anything different I might have sprung for the fancier looking stove.

RE: Hearth . . . all free standing stoves still need a hearth . . . well unless they're built right on a concrete pad . . . the hearth (also known as the hearth pad) protects the area from the heat radiating from the bottom of the stove in some cases and protects nearby combustible flooring (i.e. wood floor, carpeting, etc.) from errant sparks, embers or the coals which sometimes roll out of the stove.

 

[firefighterjake]

. . .

I've seen it mentioned many MANY times here that wood stoves are space heaters...I have to get some clarification here...

Are yall saying that 1) Woodstoves are inefficient and only comparable to one of those little space heaters? That's definitely not been my experience growing up. 2) Woodstoves are designed to heat certain space/sqft. amount? 3) Only going to heat the space they are installed in?? Again, I'm just sort of confused on what yall are trying to express with that statement.

I'm still VERY curious what sort of hearth is being spoken of for a stove. Again, I thought it was just a freestanding box with a pipe going into the wall (drywall) no?

Or do you still have to build a brick platform and wall section to handle the heat, embers when loading, etc.?

As I said before, I doubt she's going to be thrilled with the stove idea. Insert is more eye-appealing know what I mean?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Ah, fire school is open . . . and you're in the right place for learning.

Heat Transfer: There are three basic ways that heat can transfer from Point A (i.e. the source of the heat) to Point B (which in the case of staying warm in the winter would probably be you.)

There is conductive heating . . . best example here is to go over to the hot stove and lay your hand on it (no, no, no . . . I was just kidding) . . . in conductive heating the heat is transferred through direct contact. Another way of thinking is that when you fry up some eggs in the morning the heat is transferred to your frying pan from the gas stove by the direct contact with the flame on the metal frying pan. For the purposes of heating a home conductive heating doesn't come into play unless you have to consider clearances from combustibles since putting something that can catch on fire (i.e. 2 x 4, cardboard box, etc.) directly against a hot stove or stove pipe can catch on fire in time.

There is radiational heating . . . best example here is when you're outside in the sun shine and you can feel the sun on your face. The heat here is being transferred through radiational waves so to speak. In home heating you experience this with a woodstove when you're sitting in front of the stove and you can feel the heat coming out of the stove. I would wager most woodstoves use radiational heating to transfer the heat from the stove to heat you and your home.

Finally there is convectional heating . . . best example here perhaps (given the fact that I am just a dumb firefighter and not a scientist) is when you turn on a fan on a hot, muggy day and the fan begins to blow that hot, muggy air around. Here heat is transferred through a medium . . . which most typically is either air or water. Most central heating systems use convectional heating by transferring the heat they generate from burning oil or gas to heated air which blows throughout an entire home thanks to ductwork and a large blower or by circulating heated water through pipes in the case of a hot water heating system. Some woodstoves use convectional heating by incorporating shrouds or shields.

So what does this all have to do with woodstoves . . . well basically this is the long explanation as to why woodstoves are considered space heaters. Since they primarily use raditional heating with the waves radiating out until they strike something (a wall, furniture, you) they tend to heat up the immediate space very well . . . but as you get further and further from the source of the heat generally the cooler the temps will be. While you can utilize some of the convective properties in some woodstoves and even set up your own convective current by using floor fans to move the heated air from one room to another, most folks will tell you that in most homes it can be a challenge to get the entire home heated to the same temp level and depending on the size of your home you may not be able to heat your entire home.

Now this doesn't mean heating with a woodstove means you need to have a woodstove in each room . . . or that you can't heat an entire home with a stove . . . rather it means folks need to know that woodstoves most effectively heat smaller spaces . . . and if you're being realistic you need to know that it will not heat the same as a hot water baseboard oil boiler with the same temp in each room of the house. Folks who think they can install a woodstove anywhere in their house and then expect to have the temp exactly at 72 degrees in every room in the house will most likely be disappointed.

 

[firefighterjake]

I cannot address all your questions, but I will through out a few things where I can. I have a freestanding stove in the basement, and have the 8-10 degree difference in temperature between the floors that some were discussing. Our house does not have ideal air movement for a wood stove in the basement to get the hot air upstairs, and it does not sound like yours does either. I have tried several different methods of moving that air, and have had limited success, but does help keep the gas furnace and heat pump from running too much. What the stove in the basement does do for us is to get that concrete warmed up, and heats an office space that I spend a lot of time in. If I did not have that stove down there, I would freeze to death working even with the small portable heaters I use when the stove is not running. It takes about a week of stove burning to warm that mass up so that my feet don't freeze.

It has been said several times on this forum that a wood stove is a space heater, and I believe that is the case. If you do have a flue available upstairs already, I would be considering a freestanding stove upstairs, along with the insert in the fireplace downstairs. I would guess that you could install a hearth and new wood stove for significantly less money upstairs than you can a fireplace, and will heat the space better than most fireplaces.

I've seen it mentioned many MANY times here that wood stoves are space heaters...I have to get some clarification here...

Are yall saying that 1) Woodstoves are inefficient and only comparable to one of those little space heaters? That's definitely not been my experience growing up. 2) Woodstoves are designed to heat certain space/sqft. amount? 3) Only going to heat the space they are installed in?? Again, I'm just sort of confused on what yall are trying to express with that statement.

I'm still VERY curious what sort of hearth is being spoken of for a stove. Again, I thought it was just a freestanding box with a pipe going into the wall (drywall) no?

Or do you still have to build a brick platform and wall section to handle the heat, embers when loading, etc.?

As I said before, I doubt she's going to be thrilled with the stove idea. Insert is more eye-appealing know what I mean?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Continued from previous post . . .

Woodstoves can be pretty efficient and can heat your entire home, but again they do have their limitations. Perhaps the statement closest to the truth about woodstoves being space heaters is your second statement . . . woodstoves are designed to heat a certain space and square footage.

RE: Hearth. I think some folks think of a hearth and fireplace with the mantle and brickwork as the same thing . . . however the best way to think of a hearth is to think of it as a bath matt . . . for your woodstove. Having a bath matt when you get out of the shower is nice . . . it provides protection to you so you don't slip on the wet tile or vinyl floor and some folks think it kind of compliments the shower and bathroom. A hearth is the same thing . . . it provides protection to the floor if the woodstove puts out a lot of heat and it provides protection from errant embers, sparks, coals, etc. I guess the best way to think of a hearth is not as a fireplace surround, but rather think of it has floor protection for a woodstove. In some cases the floor protection just provides simple ember/spark protection . . . and in some stove models' cases the floor protection has to have a specific insulation number since the stove radiates a lot of heat through the bottom of the firebox.

Now that said . . . some folks with woodstoves build a hearth . . . but then also add on to it with a vertical element . . . in some cases to provide additional protection to nearby walls . . . or in many cases to just make things look a little bit nicer looking.

As for what the hearth can look like . . . it certainly could be built of bricks . . . and some folks do so . . . however depending on what the stove calls for and what local inspectors and your insurance company are looking for you could have a hearth built with porcelain tiles, granite, sandstone, soapstone, marble, glass, etc.

RE: I know what you're saying about the insert. My wife was sold on the idea of an insert . . . she thought it would take up less space and look more like a fireplace. If I had an existing fireplace quite honestly I would probably have gone with a wood burning insert. However, you need to take your wife and check out some of the stores selling woodstoves . . . today's woodstoves take up less space than before thanks to many models with close clearances and quite honestly there are some really beautiful looking woodstoves out there in enamel and soapstone . . . add in a nice looking hearth and you end up with a nice focal point in the room. Now if your wife is thinking about the ambiance of a fireplace . . . well the woodstoves today have large windows to give you a nice view of the fire . . . and you're getting the benefit of heat at the same time.

 

[firefighterjake]

Well, I have no experience with vents, etc, but, as someone mentioned, code typically restricts this because a fire could spread via your heat path. I still think heating the whole house

Right, but again, what are some ways other than those corner/doorway fans that people have used to spread the heat more efficiently?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

As mentioned just cutting a bunch of holes in your floor may not be the best or safest thing to do . . . as for moving heat . . . save your money . . . don't bother with the fancy schmancy whirligigs that sit on the woodstove or even the doorway fans . . . best thing is to get a floor fan or two, position it in your doorway pointing at the stove and it will set up an air current (again . . . establishing a convective current) to move the heat around the house . . . which is how I manage to heat most of my house with a single woodstove.)

 

[firefighterjake]

Seriously, there are furnaces that burn wood instead of gas. That's basically what you are saying that you want, but they start @ $5k, I think. p.s. F the gas co's.

Well we plan to put central A/C in at some point but the wood furnace would mean duct work and such which...after the $5K would be pretty expensive in the grand scheme of things. Our cheapest option would be to just buy a $2K insert and slap it in the basement. But it looks like, unless I get one big enough and figure out an efficient way to circulate the air...that's not gonna happen. Next cheapest would be a stove in the living room...then a fireplace/insert in the living room...and after that we're back at the wood furnace/ductwork again...

But I'm learning!

Thanks!

-Emt1581

I'm still plodding trhough this thread, but one of the first things you need to do to help us help you is post a plan of your house . . . don't worry . . . none of us will attempt to sneak in and steal your Ritz crackers at night . . . posting a plan showing the rough dimensions of the house, stairs, lay-out, etc. will help us determine what type of heating system might best suit your needs. For example, if you had a 5,000 square foot house there are few, if any, woodstoves that would suit your needs . . . and instead most folks would suggest you only look at a wood boiler or wood furnace . . . depending on your lay-out we might suggest nixxing the hook-ups and going somewhere else completely.

Second . . . if you're serious about heating with wood you don't want to go cheap . . . "slapping" an appliance (that routinely burns at 600-1,200 degrees F) into place and hoping to save money by doing so is not a safe, long-term view. Trust me . . . it is far better to spend a little extra . . . and have a warm house and a safe house.

Finally, be aware that paying for the wood burning insert or stove is only half of the equation . . . you may or may not be able to use the existing flue . . . or you may be able to use it and need to install a liner . . . or you may end up having to put in a whole other chimney (Class A or masonry) . . . and then you will most likely need to build a hearth . . . heating with wood can be a bit expensive at the get-go . . . but it has long term economic benefits if you stick with it.

 

[firefighterjake]

...I'm still VERY curious what sort of hearth is being spoken of for a stove. Again, I thought it was just a freestanding box with a pipe going into the wall (drywall) no?...

No, it's not that simple. All of the appliances we're talking about have minimum required Clearances To Combustible materials (CTC's) all around the exposed perimeter of the appliance, as well as hearth size and thermal resistance requirements. These requirements are stove-specific, and they are described in detail in the manufacturer's documentation for each appliance. These requirements must be met or exceeded during the installation planning and execution to ensure a safe system. Stovepipe (also called connector pipe), wall/ceiling penetrations, flue liners and chimney pipe all must be certified as meeting requirements for heat resistance, must be compatible, and must be installed correctly. No, it ain't just a box with a pipe through the wall. Rick

I understand. When you first mentioned "stove pipe" I thought of something completely different. It's common terminology on gun forums.

I just got off the phone with the place we'd probably buy from locally. He said the same as what I'm getting here...a basement stove/insert isn't going to heat a whole house this size. Furthermore he said that if there wasn't originally two flues built into this chimney that you can't add another one...you need a separate pipe/chimney built. He said there's a guy that can come out and take measurements/look around and it's a $75 fee that gets refunded into the price of a purchase...so it's basically free once you buy something from them.

As I said, I'm learning but without that 2nd flue, it's going to be a little frustrating because efficiency will no longer be possible since we're restricted to just the basement.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

This is promising . . . a seller that seems to know his stuff. What product lines does he carry?

Also . . . other folks and myself keep trying to help you out here, but you don't seem to be hearing what we're saying . . . you need to think outside of the box . . . you may not be restricted to just one or two places in the home . . . for example you may be able to put a woodstove somewhere else in the house you haven't even considered . . . granted it may cost you the price of a Class A chimney . . . but if doing so means you're safe and warm and it looks good . . . then the price may be worth it.

 

[firefighterjake]

If a house has good air flow from room to room and floor to floor then the heat/cold will travel into/out of those rooms and floors to distribute heat throughout the house. Walls, doors, floors and ceilings block that flow and make it more difficult for heat to move into a particular area of the house. A wood stove will heat the room or area it is in very well if it is the proper sized stove (space heater). Any additional area of the house that it heats is dependent on how the air flows through that space.

As to the hearth, that is the "area" that the stove sits. Each stove has specific non-combustible clearances that have to be met, the hearth is to be built based on the requirements for the stove that will be placed in service. It can be made of many different non-combustible materials. The pipe going through the wall will have to have some non-combustible clearance also.

I keep hearing about the eye appeal of fireplace vrs. stove. This is a personal preference that I really don't understand, but I am a function trumps eye-appeal person. If you want the best bang for your buck, then a freestanding stove is what will work the best for your money. I will say there are some high efficiency zero clearance fireplaces on the market that look real good, and should do a good job of heating, and even have the ability to tie into your furnace duct system, but by the time they are priced, I loose interest real fast. To me, you are either interested in heating with wood or want eye candy, anything in between will be a comprise one way or the other. (Putting flame suit on as I type)

Hope this helps some. Keep asking questions.

I agree 100% with you. If it was up to me I could live in a one room cabin (with or without plumbing and electricity). Hell, I'm an Eagle Scout. I LOVE roughing it!!

Unfortunately if my wife isn't happy, it makes life difficult for me in more ways that one. So yes, there has to be a compromise here. If I can get her to go for a wood stove I will. I think it's a MUCH better option because there's no electricity and in the LIKELY event of a power outage, it'll heat the same. Maybe since it's down the basement she won't care as much...living room I think is going to be a different issue.

I think the next step is going to be sitting down for a few hours and just reading through the links above.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

I think you need to start by stopping at several different woodstove companies and picking up some brochures . . . this may show your wife that there are many different styles and looks when it comes to woodstoves and that they're not all large, black boxes with a pipe sticking out of them.

I like Jotuls for their look . . . other folks don't. I don't care for the look of Woodstock Soapstone stoves . . . they seem to fancy for my tastes, but other folks love them. Get in touch with the local dealers and see what products they have . . . and show your wife. Again, the enameled stoves in different colors and the soapstone stoves are rather nice looking.

 

[firefighterjake]

Just an FYI...the yellow chair is where the second flue (if there is one) would be...in the wall/corner.

Thanks again BeGreen!

-Emt1581

If there is a second flue here . . . it seems to me that you might be able to do a nice corner installation with a free standing stove.

 

[firefighterjake]

Nice house, put the stove in the basement and stay down there.

I agree. But she doesn't like the idea of going up and down the steps to a common area. Plus that's already been claimed as my man cave for multiple reasons.

My main concern is that upper level. I suppose we can snuggle, but otherwise, and without using the cable/radiating heat in the ceilings (which is going to drive up the electric bill) ...there's going to be almost no heat getting upstairs from the basement.

-Emt1581

Another thought . . . if the basement is going to be your domain . . . what about getting a large, free-standing stove for down here. In this case she wouldn't see the stove . . . and you would gain a bit more in terms of more heat coming off the stove . . . heck, in this case you could even get one of those ugly steel stoves like a Blaze King. Of course it may not be as efficient, but as others have mentioned there are folks who can and have heated their homes with a woodstove in the basement . . . not as efficient and you may need to work some at moving the heat . . . but this may be a good solution for you.

 

[firefighterjake]

Something we haven't focused a whole lot on is the idea of a wood stove in the living room and it's capabilities. If I were to put a stove in the living room...would it heat the upstairs bedrooms fairly well?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

In my case . . . yes . . . the woodstove on the first floor easily heats the second floor . . . master bedroom on the first floor is cooler (this is farther away from the woodstove . . . but my wife and I like the bedroom to be a bit cooler.)

 

[firefighterjake]

I advised on "get your wood now" on page 1, I believe.

Who the hell remembers back that far?!?!

It does seem like a lot do it though. We close on the 22nd. I plan to figure out what we're going with and get two cords ASAP then cover them up with a tarp and wait for winter like a kid on Christmas Eve

-Emt1581

Cover top only, after it's stacked.

If the weather is good, hold of on the covering. Wood needs air flow to dry.

+1 tothe Dixie Chick. I'll remember the Woodburning Sisters!

 

[firefighterjake]

I advised on "get your wood now" on page 1, I believe.

Who the hell remembers back that far?!?!

It does seem like a lot do it though. We close on the 22nd. I plan to figure out what we're going with and get two cords ASAP then cover them up with a tarp and wait for winter like a kid on Christmas Eve

-Emt1581

Cover top only, after it's stacked.

If the weather is good, hold of on the covering. Wood needs air flow to dry.

Other than putting a canopy over the wood pile...how do you cover just the top? Also, if there's any sort of wind when it rains, isn't the rest of the pile going to get soaked??...or do yall run out and quick cover it in a rain storm?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Just cover the top . . . with a tarp . . . plywood . . . metal roofing . . . etc. Rain (and snow for that matter) is typically surface moisture and will go away in a day or two . . . well the snow will not go away in the dead of winter in Maine . . . but it doesn't matter anyways since most of the rain/snow doesn't blow directly sideways . . . heck even when I leave my piles uncovered you'll often see the rain only penetrate a foot or two down from the top.

Holy cow . . . I don't think I ever wrote so much on a topic . . . and no doubt I'm repeating things other folks have already said . . . but that's OK . . . repetition is good . . . repetition is good . . . repetition is good.

By the way EMT . . . I don't know if I ever said it, but welcome to hearth.com . . . you're in a good place to learn all you ever wanted to know or not know about burning wood and keeping warm.

 

[firefighterjake]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

Good perspective . . . and it's worth noting that Gyrfalcon has one of those very sharp looking soapstone stoves . . . I tell you EMT . . . you might want to show your wife some of these stoves.

 

[firefighterjake]

Also, I think you mentioned a wood rack behind the trees. . .you want your wood out baking under the summer sun, not under the shade of trees, especially if you have only ~ 4 mo. to get it dried out. If your father's Osburn is much over ~ 20 yrs old, it's "pre-EPA." As has already been mentioned, but perhaps underestimated by you, newer "EPA stoves" are much more picky about their fuel being dry. "I can always find something to burn" is not as doable with the new stoves, unless you are talking about finding something dry like 2x4's or wood bricks. Around here, nobody sells dry firewood anymore, except for the $4 bundles @ Kroger. IME, the wood vendors on Craigslist are con artists who either don't know what "seasoned" means, or don't care and will just tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Best price around here is $300 for a dump truck load that's supposed to be ~ 2.5 cords. . .works out to ~ $1 /cu ft.

I dunno...I've had awesome luck with Craigslist on everything from boats to motors and just tonight I bought a riding lawn mower...KILLER deals to!

In terms of wood... what do you classify as seasoned? Again, how do I tell if someone is reputable without knowing anyone else who buys wood??

Thanks!

-Emt1581

The definition of seasoned varies . . . most folks here say the best definition is wood that is below X% moisture level as determined by a moisture meter (I think they say 22% . . . maybe it was 28% moisture level . . . but don't hold me to that.) Me, I'm just a dumb Maine hick . . . I cut, split and stack my wood at least a year in advance . . . and truth be told I'm now two years ahead . . . which pretty much guarantees me that the wood I have will be seasoned enough to burn without sizzling, spitting water, smoking up the glass or not igniting easily . . . all issues folks typically experience in the first year when they buy "seasoned" wood and expect it to be great for burning.

As others have mentioned . . . get your wood as early as possible . . . because even if folks say it is seasoned it may not truly be seasoned. Heck, some old time wood burners consider wood that was cut down in the winter and left as tree length until bucked and split in the fall seasoned . . . and I would wager a week's pay that this so-called seasoned wood would not pass muster in most EPA woodstoves.

Reputable? Ask around . . . but be aware that many folks who are burning in pre-EPA woodstoves don't know the difference between truly seasoned wood. Your best bet when it comes to buying wood is to buy early and give yourself some time . . . otherwise buy a moisture meter to check the dealer's wood and ask questions as to when the wood was bucked up and split.

 

[firefighterjake]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

I appreciate your reply. No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc... I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove. Actually having the stove is what turned me around. Get it? And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either. But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there. I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.

HehHeh . . . I'm a bit slow . . . I didn't realize until today you were a gal . . . and you sound a lot like my wife . . . she doesn't want granite countertops . . . something about having to maintain them and bacterial growth.

 

[firefighterjake]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

I appreciate your reply. No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc... I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove. Actually having the stove is what turned me around. Get it? And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either. But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there. I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.

How are granite counter tops impractical?

I'll have to look up those soapstone ones.

-Emt1581

Definitely look up Hearthstone and Woodstock Soapstone stoves . . . if I didn't have a Jotul I would be sorely tempted to have a soapstone stove. I really like the look . . . and I think your wife might like them . . . they're almost a work of art or fine furniture rather than a utiliarian heating device.

 

[gyrfalcon]

HehHeh . . . I'm a bit slow . . . I didn't realize until today you were a gal . . . and you sound a lot like my wife . . . she doesn't want granite countertops . . . something about having to maintain them and bacterial growth.

Well, I don't say "ew!" a lot or load up the smiley-faces and multiple exclamation points and freak out over the prospect of a little ash floating out of the stove, so you're excused. I somehow managed to miss that whole part of girl training.

I'm just a person liike the rest of you, though vastly frustrated by my lack of experience with tools (now, that is part of girl training for sure, unfortunately) and deeply envious of the natural physical strength that allows you guys to wrangle your own firewood.

Guys, please, do your daughters a huge favor and bring them up to be comfortable with and knowledgeable about tools and to help with handyman projects around the house.

As for the granite countertops-- I've been mystified since they became so popular, almost mandatory for a "nice kitchen." Of all the things to spend a lot of extra cash on, they're on the very bottom of my list. Yes, they do look nice, but for a real working kitchen, give me high-quality formica any day at a fraction of the price. They're more resilient, require no maintenance at all other than a damp sponge, and nowadays can look only fractionally less handsome than the pricey granite. I freely admit, though, I'm in a tiny, tiny minority, so perhaps I'm peculiar.

 

[emt1581]

Holy hell Jake!! I can only imagine you are bored and sitting at the station waiting for a call. Otherwise how did you spend a few HOURS replying?? Either way thanks for the thoughts/info. Unfortunately I'm running late but tonight I'll be the one sitting at the station, so I'll reply then.

Thanks again!

-Emt1581