Basement vs. Living room for wood insert?

[ddddddden]

You want to heat a large house with wood only and also keep an esthetically apparently very fussy wife happy, you're going to have to spend bucks.

Well said. . .the falcon cannot hear the falconer.

 

[ddddddden]

That said, look for 10-20% off-season discount on a stove. Being up for a lil' DIY never hurt the budget either.

 

[emt1581]

. . .being up for a lil' DIY never hurts the budget.

Why not...I've laid sidewalks, built rooms, and I dabble in electrical/plumbing....why not hearth building...

-Emt1581

 

[gyrfalcon]

You want to heat a large house with wood only and also keep an esthetically apparently very fussy wife happy, you're going to have to spend bucks.

Well said. . .the falcon cannot hear the falconer.

True dat. But falcons only ever listen because they've been hoodwinked into thinking they have to anyway. Once they get wise to the ruse, they're gone.

 

[emt1581]

You want to heat a large house with wood only and also keep an esthetically apparently very fussy wife happy, you're going to have to spend bucks.

Well said. . .the falcon cannot hear the falconer.

True dat. But falcons only ever listen because they've been hoodwinked into thinking they have to anyway. Once they get wise to the ruse, they're gone.

I've never heard this falcon/falconer saying....what's it mean??

-Emt1581

 

[ddddddden]

Well, I reckon it means that, if this project goes well, you may experience the well known Hearth effect this winter. . .with the Mrs. losing layers of clothing and serving martinis fireside. (For the original meaning, g00gle the phrase.)

 

[firefighterjake]

HehHeh . . . I'm a bit slow . . . I didn't realize until today you were a gal . . . and you sound a lot like my wife . . . she doesn't want granite countertops . . . something about having to maintain them and bacterial growth.

Well, I don't say "ew!" a lot or load up the smiley-faces and multiple exclamation points and freak out over the prospect of a little ash floating out of the stove, so you're excused. I somehow managed to miss that whole part of girl training.

I'm just a person liike the rest of you, though vastly frustrated by my lack of experience with tools (now, that is part of girl training for sure, unfortunately) and deeply envious of the natural physical strength that allows you guys to wrangle your own firewood.

Guys, please, do your daughters a huge favor and bring them up to be comfortable with and knowledgeable about tools and to help with handyman projects around the house.

As for the granite countertops-- I've been mystified since they became so popular, almost mandatory for a "nice kitchen." Of all the things to spend a lot of extra cash on, they're on the very bottom of my list. Yes, they do look nice, but for a real working kitchen, give me high-quality formica any day at a fraction of the price. They're more resilient, require no maintenance at all other than a damp sponge, and nowadays can look only fractionally less handsome than the pricey granite. I freely admit, though, I'm in a tiny, tiny minority, so perhaps I'm peculiar.

My wife is the same way . . . and that's the way I like it . . . she's extremely real, uses little to no make-up (cover-up occasionally), doesn't do the "shopping" thing and quite honestly is a lot smarter and better than me at doing house renovation projects thanks to her Dad teaching her those skills when he renovated his house many years ago and his German work ethic required that all the children help work and learn how to use the tools. Sometimes I think the only reason she keeps me around is for disposing of dead critters that the cats bring home, emptying the cat boxes, crawling around in dirty, dark places and being able to lift heavy objects. She's quite a catch . . . and I am thankful to have found her . . . heck . . . she's still teaching me skills when it comes to house renovation.

And yeah . . . she also agrees with you . . . I think she's leaning towards a formica, corian, etc. type of counter top when we get to the point where we do our kitchen renovation . . . for the same reasons -- ease to maintain, durability, no worry about bacteria, less expensive and as you mentioned the stuff today is most definitely not the stuff from the 1970s and 80s . . . I should know . . . our current kitchen has 1980s vintage pink formica . . . which will most definitely be going in the dumpster.

 

[firefighterjake]

Holy hell Jake!! I can only imagine you are bored and sitting at the station waiting for a call. Otherwise how did you spend a few HOURS replying?? Either way thanks for the thoughts/info. Unfortunately I'm running late but tonight I'll be the one sitting at the station, so I'll reply then.

Thanks again!

-Emt1581

HehHeh . . . slow day . . . and about halfway through my replies I realized that I was going a little bit crazy on the keyboard with half a bazillion replies . . . I was hoping that I wasn't coming across at being a know-it-all or a bore.

 

[firefighterjake]

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue. Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved. I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove. After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead. Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces. An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace. A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room. I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves. Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.

Good perspective . . . and it's worth noting that Gyrfalcon has one of those very sharp looking soapstone stoves . . . I tell you EMT . . . you might want to show your wife some of these stoves.

Hearthstone and Harman were the only two I saw that had soap stone models.

-Emt1581

Hearthstone has some very pretty looking stoves . . . as mentioned earlier a few models were in my top 5 list . . . you may want to show your wife some of these.

I don't believe Harman has soapstone models though.

I don't know exactly where in Pennsylvania you are located . . . but the enamled Jotuls are also quite beautiful. Here's one dealer that may be in your neck of the woods.

http://www.shortsstoves.com/wood.html

 

[btuser]

I feel compelled to do my own work. I follow the Walden Woods approach to finance: If I have to work 4 days to pay my bills for one day of money for me, then I'm really only making money for myself 50 days a year, and for the rest of the time someone else owns me.


My friend an I install almost the same stove. We were talking about paybayck and what it would take compared oil vs wood ect. I figred 5 years and he said about the same, which I kinda questioned because he buys his wood and I cut most of mine. I also installed my own and he had someone install his, including hiring an electrician to install an outlet for his blower. All in all I saved about $2000 over the cost of the setup including 1st year's wood, plus I got a Lopi with secondary bypass vs his Regency (which I would have bought to save myself $400, pretty much the same stove). What he paid for the installation was entirely reasonable due to the flue height, the professional job they did, and that pesky zipcode upcharge that seems to come with the town I live in. Long story short I saved 2 grand installing my own stove, and every year I save about $150-200 cleaning my own chimney.


It blows my mind to see people slave away over what color stone and granite vs silestone when an extra 5 grand to sprayfoam their building evelope would pay dividends for the next 50 years!

 

[firefighterjake]

Harman does steel stoves. Like God intended stoves to be. With a few cast iron offerings thrown in for the elite.

That must be because St. Peter's front gate is made out of cast iron.

Oh no...that old one has long since been replaced by one made entirely of Unobtainium. %-P

 

[firefighterjake]

. . .being up for a lil' DIY never hurts the budget.

Why not...I've laid sidewalks, built rooms, and I dabble in electrical/plumbing....why not hearth building...

-Emt1581

Hearth building is a walk in the park . . . I'm an idiot when it comes to construction and I had no problem building a quality, safe hearth . . . once you see how easy and cheap it is to build a nice hearth you'll wonder why folks pay so much for those pre-made hearths . . . I mean we're talking ridiculously simple here.

 

[firefighterjake]

EMT . . . did you ever get us a square footage figure on your house . . . why I am asking is that larger stoves are generally more expensive than smaller stoves . . . and what I'm really saying in a round a bout way is that while soapstone stoves and some of the fancier stoves may be more expensive you may find that depending on your size requirement the stoves may be in your financial ballpark . . . and sometimes paying a bit more to get something that you and your wife will like . . . and will find useful in terms of heating you and your home better may be worth the added expense.

What I'm saying is that to me it would be far better to spend a bit more and end up with a stove that looks good and more importantly heats the home . . . rather than spend less and end up with a stove that either doesn't look as nice or doesn't adequately heat the home. In my own mind, while the up-front cost of getting a stove I would like and find useful might be more money, if it means I am happier with the stove it just makes sense to go that route . . . try to look at this in the long term . . .

Also, as others have mentioned there are ways to reduce your costs . . . scrounging wood vs. buying . . . installing the stove yourself . . . building your own hearth . . . break down the figures as to the cost and compare it to the cost of electricity, propane, oil, what-have you and see how many years it will take to recoup your investment . . .

The most important thing in all of this . . . and with everyone's advice . . . is that you do what is right for you . . . and that you end up with something you can afford, something you and your wife both like and something that keeps you warm in middle of the winter . . . and for many more winters to come.

 

[ddddddden]

Okay, if you DIY, the cost of materials for class A pipe outside the chimney vs. flex pipe inside the chimney should not be a deal breaker if that's what you need to do to locate the stove in a particular spot or to reserve the chimney flue for the basement. A good price on 25' of 6" flex pipe is ~ $400. Most folks will tell you to insulate it for safety and optimal draft. Add another $200. Class A pipe runs $100 /3' section, and I've seen it for ~ $75. So that'd be $800 for 24' of class A, which has insulation built in vs. $600 for relining your chimney with insulated flex pipe. There would probably be some extras with class A, like an elbow piece, but I *think* you could do it for < $1k. If you were to run a pipe up the rear side of the chimney, so it wouldn't be visible from the street, I don't see why the Mrs. would object, especially if she understood that the optimal flue was a big part of what was keeping her warm. Then again, I usually don't understand women's objections.

 

[btuser]

$600 for an insulated liner inside the old flue. The smooth-wall flex is double thick and twice as heavy.

 

[ddddddden]

Isn't the smooth-wall "Pro" flex more $ than regular flex pipe?

 

[emt1581]

I learned something today. Stoves down the value of a home where inserts raise the value...at least in my area. Since we're looking to build in 5-10 years, and this isn't the home I plan to die in, I'm thinking we're going to go the route of an insert.

Believe it or not my wife thought of this one while talking tonight in terms of being able to afford things...

I mentioned that I wanted to buy an insert/stove and do it before the end of the year to take advantage of the tax credit. She suggested buying the unit now and just keeping it in the basement...then when we could afford to build another fireplace...do it and install whatever we bought.

Only snag I can see is that the fireplace would have to be built around the insert instead of the other way around. But what I could do is buy the insert to fit the fireplace in the basement. If, for some reason the fireplace upstairs is just slightly out of spec, we could still use the insert downstairs.

What do yall think? Has anyone done something similar to that....buy the stove/insert first THEN build a fireplace/hearth around it?

With that tax credit, can we buy two and get a credit on each or is it just one credit up to $1500??

Thanks!

-Emt1581

 

[begreen]

Sounds like an obsession to me. You may need to see a therapist.

 

[emt1581]

Sounds like an obsession to me. You may need to see a therapist.

That'll be a short trip...

But you're right. Hence why my first thread has 200 replies in a few days time. I research and analyze the crap out of anything I buy. The more expensive, the more I do it. I'm not cheap. I just don't like to make expensive mistakes.

So what do you think as far as my buy now build later plan? How about that tax credit?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

 

[gibson]

On your original post, I have my Jotul in our family room, where we spend most of our time. It heats our family room and kitchen to about 75* and the upstairs bedrooms to the mid to low 60's. A radiant free standing stove might do better downstairs, but I wouldn't count on an insert, unless you have your main living area down there.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Sounds like an obsession to me. You may need to see a therapist.

That'll be a short trip...

But you're right. Hence why my first thread has 200 replies in a few days time. I research and analyze the crap out of anything I buy. The more expensive, the more I do it. I'm not cheap. I just don't like to make expensive mistakes.

So what do you think as far as my buy now build later plan? How about that tax credit?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.

 

[emt1581]

As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.

Seems like the gubmint reeeallly doesn't want to give out more than $1500 per household on this deal. So if we buy the stove up front and don't get it installed, we can either get a really nice one and take the entire $1500 credit or we can be a nice one and get around $750-$1000 out of the deal. Either way we'd lose the credit's portion of the installation fees.

-Emt1581

 

[gyrfalcon]

As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.

Seems like the gubmint reeeallly doesn't want to give out more than $1500 per household on this deal. So if we buy the stove up front and don't get it installed, we can either get a really nice one and take the entire $1500 credit or we can be a nice one and get around $750-$1000 out of the deal. Either way we'd lose the credit's portion of the installation fees.

-Emt1581

Just a suggestion? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Getting "only* $750 bucks back on your purchase is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[emt1581]

As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.

Seems like the gubmint reeeallly doesn't want to give out more than $1500 per household on this deal. So if we buy the stove up front and don't get it installed, we can either get a really nice one and take the entire $1500 credit or we can be a nice one and get around $750-$1000 out of the deal. Either way we'd lose the credit's portion of the installation fees.

-Emt1581

Just a suggestion? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Getting "only* $750 bucks back on your purchase is nothing to sneeze at.

I don't want to turn this political but I'll be damned if I'll call this gov. a "gift horse". Say that when Bush's tax cuts expire and your taxes go through the roof! Think the gov. will be grateful for all the extra money it's forcing you to pay for the same (SNAFU'd) services?

-Emt1581

 

[gyrfalcon]

As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.

Seems like the gubmint reeeallly doesn't want to give out more than $1500 per household on this deal. So if we buy the stove up front and don't get it installed, we can either get a really nice one and take the entire $1500 credit or we can be a nice one and get around $750-$1000 out of the deal. Either way we'd lose the credit's portion of the installation fees.

-Emt1581

Just a suggestion? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Getting "only* $750 bucks back on your purchase is nothing to sneeze at.

I don't want to turn this political but I'll be damned if I'll call this gov. a "gift horse". Say that when Bush's tax cuts expire and your taxes go through the roof! Think the gov. will be grateful for all the extra money it's forcing you to pay for the same (SNAFU'd) services?

-Emt1581

Oh, so glad you don't want to turn this political. Pffftt.