**Best Insert for (ICF) Large Ranch - what would you buy!?

[BsFire]

I beg to differ. We already know that the whole house can be heated with less than 200 gls of propane in one of the coldest months we had for years. That's roughly 15 mBTUs which you can get out of one cord of hardwood. I can burn one cord of wood in my 2 cu ft PE Super in one month. Anything substantially bigger would be a waste of money, IMHO, plus running small fires all the time won't get you the efficiency that the stove can provide. The real problem will be to get the heat from that one basement room throughout the house.

Hmmm...

That was keeping the thermostat at 66 and wearing layers - which the Mrs wasn't a fan of. Basically, I was keeping the house as cold we could deal with, in order to use the least amount of propane. She would of been much happier with a temp of 70+. I'm sure we would of used quite a bit more propane setting the thermostat 4-5 degrees higher. Any thoughts on that Grisu?

In regards to the amount of wood we'd be using and it being a waste of money... I'm not looking to replace the propane, only offset a decent amount, with having an alternate heat source. Would you suggest anything else if were only to burn 4 to 5 days a week, vs 24/7? Just curious.

I'd prefer to go with a BIG insert in hopes that we can keep the house warmer this winter overall, while reducing the propane bill. Not to mention that I see so many comments from people wishing they had gone bigger. That's why I asked if the Summit was overheating the basement. I don't mind spending the extra money on the larger insert since there's really no going back.

Sorry, I'm no expert and still learning.

Thanks again!

 

[BsFire]

@Grisu Fair points. I missed what temp OP likes to keep the home at. I think that could make a difference. If OP currently keeps house at 66 and desires to keep at 70, that could make a big difference in propane usage and, thus, how much heat you're looking to get out of the stove.

Ha! You beat me to it. Yes, we would like to keep the house warmer. 66 def wasn't ideal in terms of comfort. 70 would would result in more comfort and a much happier wife!

 

[Nelson]

@BsFire Given the size of your home, I thought that may be the case! I don't care how insulated your home is, that level of propane use is pretty good considering.

Like I said, IMO, I would still go for the biggest stove you can fit in the space. If your home was 1500 sq ft, that would be a different story. However, at the size you are talking, I just don't think you can have a big enough stove. I believe the Summit is rated for 3,000 sq ft - not that the number means a whole lot but it gives a little context.

I do agree that a lot will depend on how much air you can move upstairs but the warm air is going to want to go that no matter what. A fun trick I used was to tape some thin strips of toitlet paper to the ceiling right at the bast of my stairs - when the stove was humming along, you can could easily see where the warm air was moving - pretty cool to see actually.

What is the size of the room, in the basement, where you are planning to have the stove?

 

[mellow]

I still stand by this post if going with an insert: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ranch-what-would-you-buy.142417/#post-1920655

 

[BsFire]

What is the size of the room, in the basement, where you are planning to have the stove?

The entire basement is around 2,500 sq ft. The finished living area (subtracting large closets and storage areas) in the 1,600 to 1,800 sq ft range.

The hearth is in the center of the house on an outside wall - just a little to the right and about 20' from the stairs.

 

[BsFire]

I still stand by this post if going with an insert: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ranch-what-would-you-buy.142417/#post-1920655

Kuma is out. No dealer anywhere near me. There is a Buck dealer fairly close.

 

[mellow]

Looking at your install it looks fairly straightforward, I don't see a reason you can't DIY this install, but only you know your limitations. We need some more Kuma users on here to let us know how well they run

 

[BsFire]

Good on the clay flue to go with an 8" liner. Nearly 11" on the inside.

 

[BsFire]

I'm thinking Buck 91.

Or, would you go with something different and why?

 

[Grisu]

I was going by your actual propane usage and your other post:

Numbers from yesterday (clear sky and sunny all day):

Outside temp high: 61 degrees
Inside temp (heat off, blinds and curtains closed): 66 degrees around 7pm

Numbers from this morning:

Outside temp low: 26 degrees
Inside temp (heat off, blinds and curtains closed): 61 degrees around 6:30am

Turned the heat on at 6:30am - set thermostat to 64 degrees. House reached 64 degrees within an hour.

Your house just does not lose much heat and can be heated by a candle. I doubt you would use much more propane when you turn up the thermostat by another 5 F. Right now two stove fills of 2 cu ft each would completely offset your propane usage; add a third one and you have 50% more heat. Do you think you would use 50% more propane by turning up the thermostat by 5 F?

A larger non-cat insert/stove would be inefficient as it takes the same amount of time to come up to optimal operating temp with half loads but burns only half of the time. Thus, you would waste more heat up the flue. Plus, frequent startup fires are more of a chore and can more easily lead to creosote as the flue does not stay warm. Not to mention it costs more money upfront. (I really don't think the added expense of an 8" flue insert would be justified in your case.)

It's your choice: Buy a large insert which you will ever run at full capacity maybe 3 weeks a year or a medium insert and then you have 3 weeks when you need to burn some supplemental propane. I think you may need to run the furnace anyway as 5000 sqft will be tough to heat from just one spot in the basement without ducting. If anything I would suggest a ~2.5 cu ft insert like an Enviro 1700, PE Neo 2.5 or an Osburn 2000/Matrix but you have to buy with what you feel comfortable with.

Btw. Don't forget to inquire about the option of supplying outside air to the stove/insert. A house as well insulated as yours may not be able to supply enough combustion air otherwise. And insist on a block-off plate when installing the insulated liner: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

 

[mellow]

If you are looking for a dealer install, what dealers do you have in your area other than Buck that sell catalytic inserts?

 

[BsFire]

Your house just does not lose much heat and can be heated by a candle. I doubt you would use much more propane when you turn up the thermostat by another 5 F. Right now two stove fills of 2 cu ft each would completely offset your propane usage; add a third one and you have 50% more heat. Do you think you would use 50% more propane by turning up the thermostat by 5 F?

Makes total sense - thanks for explaining!

 

[BsFire]

A larger non-cat insert/stove would be inefficient as it takes the same amount of time to come up to optimal operating temp with half loads but burns only half of the time. Thus, you would waste more heat up the flue. Plus, frequent startup fires are more of a chore and can more easily lead to creosote as the flue does not stay warm. Not to mention it costs more money upfront. (I really don't think the added expense of an 8" flue insert would be justified in your case.)

I think going with a cat stove is the better option for us. From what I've gathered they are more efficient. The Buck 91 is a cat stove. I read that the advertised cu ft for stoves aren't always exact with inserts. I'm pretty sure I read on another post, that even though the 91 is listed at 4.4 cu ft, the insert actually comes closer 3 cu ft. Do you think that would still be too large? I'm not trying to negate your statements. I just want to make sure I understand everything completely.

I didn't think about the 8" liner cost vs the 6" liner cost. Not sure what that would be? Wonder if there would be any benefit going with a 6"? Would an 8" not draw more?

 

[BsFire]

Btw. Don't forget to inquire about the option of supplying outside air to the stove/insert. A house as well insulated as yours may not be able to supply enough combustion air otherwise. And insist on a block-off plate when installing the insulated liner: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

I've read enough on the BOP. That's a definite!

 

[BsFire]

If you are looking for a dealer install, what dealers do you have in your area other than Buck that sell catalytic inserts?

I'm not against installing myself, but would need to know more. If I do the install myself, would home owner's insurance still cover the same? Would we need to worry about voiding any warranties on the stove itself? Then of course, safety is my biggest concern. Would just want to make sure I know EXACTLY what to do and correctly.

 

[BsFire]

Quite a few dealers in the area:

Buck, Regency, Quadra-Fire, Blaze King, Pacific Energy, Alderlea, Jotul, Hampton, Harman, Enviro, Hearthstone, Fireplace Xtrordinair, Lopi, Avalon, High Valley.

 

[BsFire]

It's your choice: Buy a large insert which you will ever run at full capacity maybe 3 weeks a year or a medium insert and then you have 3 weeks when you need to burn some supplemental propane.

VERY good point!

 

[mellow]

I didn't think about the 8" liner cost vs the 6" liner cost. Not sure what that would be? Wonder if there would be any benefit going with a 6"? Would an 8" not draw more?

The buck 91 requires an 8" liner due to design and firebox size, the cost with insulation would be about 100-200 more than a 6" insulated liner.

Most inserts are 6", buck 91 is an older design, but still works good.

The BK princess runs on a 6", if you have a dealer in the area that might be the way to go if you want someone else to do the install.

If you want to do the install yourself you just need to read up more on here on other installs, it is doable, and check to see if you need permits and your home insurance...etc..etc..

You have all summer to get it done.

 

[BsFire]

There are plenty of options available but height will be an issue for the downstairs fireplace.

After looking a little more at specific insert specs, I'm starting to think it might not be all that easy finding one that will fill (or cover) the height of our opening. It measures 33.75" tall.

I read back through this thread - and noticed that a lot of my questions were answered earlier on. Sorry, I just wasn't totally understanding all of the terminology.

 

[mellow]

You can get a custom surround made by a local metal shop if that becomes an issue.

 

[Trues]

I'm not against installing myself, but would need to know more. If I do the install myself, would home owner's insurance still cover the same? Would we need to worry about voiding any warranties on the stove itself? Then of course, safety is my biggest concern. Would just want to make sure I know EXACTLY what to do and correctly.

Our HO insurance only required that the proper permits were pulled and inspections were done and passed. I too was concerned about safety and doing things correctly so I spent countless hours on these forums reading about installation issues. In the end I was very happy I did the install myself. Fortunately for me my install was very simple with a single story house and an 11"x18" straight flue that only required 15' of liner.

In addition to saving about $1,000 based on the estimates that I had received, I was sure that the install was done in the most appropriate and complete manner. During my research, talking to the inspector, and continuing to read on here horror stories of people who had their stoves "professionally" installed has reassured me even further that I made the right decision.

I am sure that there are many incredible installers who do an amazing job of installing these units, we just don't hear the stories about them as people are more likely to complain than give praise. My personal issues with the companies I spoke with were: In some cases they did not want to insulate the liner (which I wanted to have done,) none of them wanted to install a block off plate (which I regarded as a necessity after my research here,) and obviously cost was a factor.

 

[BsFire]

Our HO insurance only required that the proper permits were pulled and inspections were done and passed. I too was concerned about safety and doing things correctly so I spent countless hours on these forums reading about installation issues. In the end I was very happy I did the install myself. Fortunately for me my install was very simple with a single story house and an 11"x18" straight flue that only required 15' of liner.

In addition to saving about $1,000 based on the estimates that I had received, I was sure that the install was done in the most appropriate and complete manner. During my research, talking to the inspector, and continuing to read on here horror stories of people who had their stoves "professionally" installed has reassured me even further that I made the right decision.

I am sure that there are many incredible installers who do an amazing job of installing these units, we just don't hear the stories about them as people are more likely to complain than give praise. My personal issues with the companies I spoke with were: In some cases they did not want to insulate the liner (which I wanted to have done,) none of them wanted to install a block off plate (which I regarded as a necessity after my research here,) and obviously cost was a factor.

All good to know. Yeah, I've already thought about checking with any dealer on the BOP. From what I've been reading, it's a must have. I have a few friends that have stoves that and would help. There's easy access to the chimney and the flue is a straight shot. I'll just have to compare pricing vs time etc...

 

[BsFire]

I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on our situation and what it'll take to reach our heating goals. Thanks again all!

Other than reading through and searching a ton of threads, I'm having a hard time finding make/model comparisons and pros/cons. There's the rating section that I've checked out, which has helped a little. Does anyone know of a more in depth make/model comparison resource?

 

[mellow]

My advice, check the stove out in person on the showroom floor if you can.

 

[BsFire]

Quick question...

The flue is actually on the far right side of the fireplace opening (not in the center). Would there be any issue connecting to rear/center of the insert? Do you think it would have any effect on the draft?

Thanks!