I don't care either way, I know what they allow here. But the code doesn't stay anything about a separate entrance, using that argument the house is part of the garage.
Boiler in the garage?
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NFPA 211, 2003 EDITION.
It basically comes down to the local Authority having jurisdiction, but most refer back to this code(not 2003 necessarily, but whichever year they honor).
Most if not all insurance companies definitely do.
I am not in agreement or condoning the intrusion, when we all know the best insurance is diligently practicing safe habits,
but their argument is: "accidents do happen and lives are lost".
Having said that you'd be flabbergasted to view some "installs"...especially after they have gone kaboom...not pretty.
Scott
ps: I will check(Tuesday in the office) on the actual "definition" of garage in the code, since they make distinctions of terms
It basically comes down to the local Authority having jurisdiction, but most refer back to this code(not 2003 necessarily, but whichever year they honor).
Most if not all insurance companies definitely do.
I am not in agreement or condoning the intrusion, when we all know the best insurance is diligently practicing safe habits,
but their argument is: "accidents do happen and lives are lost".
Having said that you'd be flabbergasted to view some "installs"...especially after they have gone kaboom...not pretty.
Scott
ps: I will check(Tuesday in the office) on the actual "definition" of garage in the code, since they make distinctions of terms
I would be curious what the code says. I'm probably being foolish going with common sense. No gas vehicles in there. No gas storage in there.
I'm sure my insurance company wouldn't like the fact that I have an outbuilding with 100 gal of methanol in drums to make biodiesel either. I think if you get asking them then they get nervous and start saying no.
I may put in a small automatic extinguisher system.. just for piece of mind, and abundance of caution.
JP
I'm sure my insurance company wouldn't like the fact that I have an outbuilding with 100 gal of methanol in drums to make biodiesel either. I think if you get asking them then they get nervous and start saying no.
I may put in a small automatic extinguisher system.. just for piece of mind, and abundance of caution.
JP
No clear "definition" of garage but the following seems to be the rule of thumb:
a) Garage, as in any structure which has large enough opening to accommodate a vehicle with gas or other flammable fuel.
b) It can also be considered a shop if any type work work are being done inside or tools are being utilized, but if the opening is large enough to accommodate a vehicle, above definition applies.
c) If detached, things get easier in inspections, but still the term "Garage" applies, thus no solid fuel flame allowed.
d) If attached to the residence, things get more complicated, fire rating in demising walls must be observed and same with all doors to living space. Either way, NPFA 211 still dictates, as listed earlier.
Placing any open flame heat source in any area where flammable fuels are stored is ...'nuff said.. we do not need code to clarify the issue.
Darwin Award qualification.
Scott
a) Garage, as in any structure which has large enough opening to accommodate a vehicle with gas or other flammable fuel.
b) It can also be considered a shop if any type work work are being done inside or tools are being utilized, but if the opening is large enough to accommodate a vehicle, above definition applies.
c) If detached, things get easier in inspections, but still the term "Garage" applies, thus no solid fuel flame allowed.
d) If attached to the residence, things get more complicated, fire rating in demising walls must be observed and same with all doors to living space. Either way, NPFA 211 still dictates, as listed earlier.
Placing any open flame heat source in any area where flammable fuels are stored is ...'nuff said.. we do not need code to clarify the issue.
Darwin Award qualification.
Scott
Mine is in a daylight basement. It's beneath my wife's photo studio. I know we had to do firerock on the walls and ceilings.
It's walled off from my "utility room" that houses my boiler, oil tanks, and circulators, electric panel, etc. Dumb thing was that despite all of that... I was unable to find a double door that was fire rated. So we have a wood one.
Even dumber.. I leave the doors open most of the time... so what is really accomplished by not having the "boiler" in the garage?
Are they really protecting me from anything? Now I'm not gonna be doing car repairs, storing gas, or rebuilding carburetors in there. I already park the diesel tractor on one side.. and the other can be one of my diesel benz cars. No gas. No more flammable than the two, 275 gallon tanks of heating oil right there next to the boiler.
I have no doubt that no matter what starts a fire.. the insurance company is going to scream and holler. If I wall in 3 sides of the boiler from the "garage" part with fire rock.. and take precautions mentioned above. Like I said.. for a thousand bucks you could probably have an auto extinguisher system with a few nozzles over the top of the boiler. I already have an alarm system with monitored fire protection.... where does reasonable come into this? Would I be better off with a cheap pellet burner sitting in the living room with a cheap chimney plunked out the side of the house?
JP
It's walled off from my "utility room" that houses my boiler, oil tanks, and circulators, electric panel, etc. Dumb thing was that despite all of that... I was unable to find a double door that was fire rated. So we have a wood one.
Even dumber.. I leave the doors open most of the time... so what is really accomplished by not having the "boiler" in the garage?
Are they really protecting me from anything? Now I'm not gonna be doing car repairs, storing gas, or rebuilding carburetors in there. I already park the diesel tractor on one side.. and the other can be one of my diesel benz cars. No gas. No more flammable than the two, 275 gallon tanks of heating oil right there next to the boiler.
I have no doubt that no matter what starts a fire.. the insurance company is going to scream and holler. If I wall in 3 sides of the boiler from the "garage" part with fire rock.. and take precautions mentioned above. Like I said.. for a thousand bucks you could probably have an auto extinguisher system with a few nozzles over the top of the boiler. I already have an alarm system with monitored fire protection.... where does reasonable come into this? Would I be better off with a cheap pellet burner sitting in the living room with a cheap chimney plunked out the side of the house?
JP
flyingcow
Minister of Fire
When installing my boiler, I asked questions first. As you found out, it's beyond aggravating. They(the ins co) had no problem if i installed the boiler in the basement of my house. Put it in, we won't even come look at it.
But it was a problem if I installed it in an unattached garage? At first, didn't make any sense. Until i got a senior agent on the phone. flammable liquids or equipment that burns a flammable liquids beside a wood boiler or stove has the potential to cause serious problems. Oil furnaces and gas furnaces have a shut down of some sort, if stuff goes boom. Before we got done, i now have a wood storage facility.
But it was a problem if I installed it in an unattached garage? At first, didn't make any sense. Until i got a senior agent on the phone. flammable liquids or equipment that burns a flammable liquids beside a wood boiler or stove has the potential to cause serious problems. Oil furnaces and gas furnaces have a shut down of some sort, if stuff goes boom. Before we got done, i now have a wood storage facility.
dogwood
Minister of Fire
Codes may or may not make sense to a lesser or greater degree. It almost doesn't matter. They are the law and any insurance company can use that fact to burn you if something goes wrong, and you do sustain a lesser or greater loss. Just think of how insurance companies defrauded the Hurricane Katrina victims in New Orleans who where flooded out, saying they suffered storm, not flood damage. With that excuse many were not covered for their losses. These insurance companies are not to be trusted nor dealt with lightly. You do not want to give any openings to them like obvious code violations when it comes to coverage of your greatest financial asset, your home.
Even though they can make me sick with anxiety at times, I got my boiler room drawings approved by the Building Dept. inspectors in advance. Even though I had already read them at the library, they, unasked on two separate occasions, quoted the codes about a boiler room being completely walled off from the garage. And about having only an outward leading door from that boiler room. In my case that door opens directly outside towards the woodshed. It might be possible to have the door lead into a common area in the house, but in our home a bedroom is adjacent to the boiler room and that is not allowable.
Pick up your local codebook at the library and read it. I did that again just last night to make sure when it I frame in combustion air openings this weekend they are sized correctly. My Dad always used to say "you can't beat a guy at his own game." This is their's, the Building Inspectors' and insurance company's, game. You need to follow their rules or you could get beat. I would hate to see that happen to anyone who frequents this site, because you folks are the best.
Mike
Even though they can make me sick with anxiety at times, I got my boiler room drawings approved by the Building Dept. inspectors in advance. Even though I had already read them at the library, they, unasked on two separate occasions, quoted the codes about a boiler room being completely walled off from the garage. And about having only an outward leading door from that boiler room. In my case that door opens directly outside towards the woodshed. It might be possible to have the door lead into a common area in the house, but in our home a bedroom is adjacent to the boiler room and that is not allowable.
Pick up your local codebook at the library and read it. I did that again just last night to make sure when it I frame in combustion air openings this weekend they are sized correctly. My Dad always used to say "you can't beat a guy at his own game." This is their's, the Building Inspectors' and insurance company's, game. You need to follow their rules or you could get beat. I would hate to see that happen to anyone who frequents this site, because you folks are the best.
Mike
curious what you came up with for combustion air openings, bet it wasn't very clear was it. !0 different inspectors will give you 10 different versions of what size and locations is required.
bigburner said:
I ran into that too. No one could give a definitive answer. Soi went with twice what is recommended for an equivalent sized oil burner.
dogwood
Minister of Fire
The 2006 IBC Residential Code Book called for two combustion air openings, one a foot ftom the ceiling, another a foot from the floor. In my case with the openings directly on the outside wall, I need to have one square inch of opening for each vent, per every 4000 btu's the boiler is rated for. The Solo Innova 50 is rated at 170,700 btu's, so 170,700/4000= 42.65 square inches per vent. Tf you use a typical louvered vent, you have to make the vent bigger, because you have to compensate for the louvers blocking some airflow. I'm just guessing you have to add 25% more to the size of each opening, I can't remember the exact percentage to you have to add to each opening's size. I have to look that figure up today. Different locations for the vents, illustrated in the code book, call for greater amounts of opening, including two to four times the size I'll be using. If you screen the vents opening to keep out bugs in addition , you have to allow for that additional restriction too.
That being said, the 2009 codebook eliminated the contents of Chapter 17 concerning combustion air requirements of solid fuel furnaces, saying only you need to follow the manufacturers recommendations. The Solo Innova manual mentions only using a 6" duct for outside air, located no closer that 12" to the boiler. That would be roughly 29 square inches of opening. The manual is more specific about the Canadian standard which calls for 1 square inch of opening per 1000 btus of hourly rating.
I am going with the 2006 code, still in effect in this county until 2/29/12, as it provides for more air and exceeds the listed requrement of the Tarm Solo Innova manual. This should meet the inspectors approval I would think.
Mike
That being said, the 2009 codebook eliminated the contents of Chapter 17 concerning combustion air requirements of solid fuel furnaces, saying only you need to follow the manufacturers recommendations. The Solo Innova manual mentions only using a 6" duct for outside air, located no closer that 12" to the boiler. That would be roughly 29 square inches of opening. The manual is more specific about the Canadian standard which calls for 1 square inch of opening per 1000 btus of hourly rating.
I am going with the 2006 code, still in effect in this county until 2/29/12, as it provides for more air and exceeds the listed requrement of the Tarm Solo Innova manual. This should meet the inspectors approval I would think.
Mike
woodsmaster
Minister of Fire
Do those vents close when the boiler is not running ? Seems like that would let in a lot of cold air. I just crack a small window open a inch, and close it when it's not burning if I'm home, but I don't have it in a garage.
dogwood
Minister of Fire
J.T., Try this post: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/52308/. It describes heat traps and motorized louvers.
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