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Posted By BoilerBob,
May 3, 2013 at 7:01 PM
I see there's a used Garn in the for sale section here........
AY Caramba Lucy, You mention Hawken and a lot of stuff comes up
on AS with a running battle with an honest owner that had problems and the
original Hawken folks apparently hired a provate investigator to
photograph and conduct surveilance of the the unhappy owner etc.
I cannot upload the image of the Hurst and Burnham boilers here for
what ever reason.
These boilers have a three pass smoke tube system getting almost all the
heat out of a wood or coal fire.
One of the other things I mentioned on AS is how a fire ring could improve the efficiency
of "AN" OWB in that the fire is concentrated in a narrow circumference within
a firebox. I illustrated this describing the old AVCO Lycoming boiler that was originally
in my home and how the oil burners fire was deflected and radiated upwards into the
Here is a pic of the beautiful wiring job you get for 3500
lets say you bought an OWB like the model this lady purchased.
can you add additional storage and truely run it as a batch burner to storage without freeze protection?
That's terrible. But the people buying those don't have a clue, and probably will be genuinely happy they don't have to pay as much of a propane bill, even if the neighbors have to breathe their smoke.
Mike, how did you get a pic of the back of my free heat machine?
Funny, i just got an email from them.
"You have been notified of this promotion due to your interest in our product.
This promotion is limited to existing inventory and is based on unit purchased and paid for by May 31, 2013. "
$1000-2000 off certain units. i requested some information on their products about a year and a half ago when i started researching. just told them i want to be removed from their mailing list. i too was once uneducated about woodburning...
I thought E-Classic was their gasifier line?
yes you are correct
E-classic = gasser
P&M ended up being the only one i was considering when i was trying to decide outdoor vs. indoor
It is, but it's not a batch burner. Since it idles theres questions weather or not its as efficient as burning a load full out to heat storage.
Hey at least the squirrels will have a nice warm place to build their nest and chew on the wires! Are there no codes that make that illegal to sell? I bet you could show most 12 year olds how to wire and they would do a better job than that.
The sad thing is they used that pic to promote their product on CL.
I thought the free heat machine people knew enough about wiring to include a light bulb?
Maybe I gave you the wrong impression and if I offended, apologies, but here is what I really think:
a) I did not make a blanket statement on all OWBs..only the ones I have personal experience with and their rolling their eyes and making un-educated statements regarding wood based fuel boilers and claiming their OWBs are the cat's meow.(as per my reference in my post).
b) It is not a competition, but it affecting everyone now and will do more so in in the future, so I raise the point of education, awareness and future planning.
c) I welcome geothermal or any other type of system that would factually challenge my way of living and maybe improve the overall scope of energy consumption and conservation in our country. But there is no need to "lighten up", since there never as any weight on my point of view other than facts and where the lack of facts was displayed I pointed it out, maybe too directly? I think we are past the point of tact in this nation...we need some truth telling and calling out.
Thank you for the opportunity to diatribe and again apologies if I offended by raising the sociopolitical aspects of this, but I value the opinions in this forum and the best results rise from high temperature distillation...
WOW. LET ME TELL YAH, THE DIAMOND PLATE ROOF AND ACCENTS ALMOST HAD ME SOLD...
The idea of an affordable outdoor boiler has been widely accepted by the market. The price of the non-gasser OWB was affordable for most wanting a central wood heating system. That market is still there but short term economics alone is what is limiting the gasser OWB/IWB to obtain the lion's share of the market. regardless of the brand it is a substantial investment in both time and money. of course laws have excluded some who just can't lay out the cash for a system and obtain the benifit from a longer payback time.
heating to storage is a new concept for many including myself. my earlier question regarding using an OWB to batch burn and heat to storage,was geared toward possibly introducing the idea to existing users and adapt existing boilers. though it may not be the most efficient system, I would think wood consumption will be reduced. and the smoke would be reduced allowing both types of boilers to coexist. If its possible to run an OWB as a batch burner to storage, I feel It would be a win win for both the OWB and IWB industry.
I agree with most of your viewpoints, and myself being a very, very conservative person, I would like to point out some things you touched upon, such as:
a) Absolute freedom in choice of burning whatever quantities of wood, sure why not, but in Europe they cleared out their forests and were forced to re think consumption, conservation and efficiency. Not smart to not heed history's lessons and mistakes by others.
On same point , I do not want regulation regarding choices, so educating and making the proper choices eliminates the"legislative control" in the decision making..sort of pre-emptive control of our lives and not having "choices"forced upon us based on "bad/uneducated decision making" caused legislation.
Again I advocate EDUCATION , CIVICS & PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and NOT LAWS or FORCED LEGISLATION, but if we think this happens by just simple freedom of choice...we have forgotten history;s lessons..WITH FREEDOM COMES RESPONSIBILITY and FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.
b) Ignorance should not be left alone, I greatly disagree with that viewpoint. Ignorance breeds malignancy and becomes gravely damaging, that is why it is propagated by the controlling parties...they called them the Dark ages for a reason..Our Founding Fathers have written scores on this point alone and build a country on the basis of knowledge based decision making. Hell they almost hanged for it.. History's abound with tragedies bred by ignorance...let them them eat cake and all.
Again, not by legislation, but by peer review, socioeconomic pressure and self exemplification in choices.
c)domestic energy in oil and gas...very dangerous topic. Tremendous amounts of misinformation and media driven "fact-spewing", all based on Energy company agendas, written by their PR sectors and backed by millions of dollars paid to mouthpieces and "in house scientists".
Domestic energy access does not equal patriotism..let's be careful. Always follow the money.
Too deep to get into here, but there is plenty of evidence, research, on actual amounts of energy, profit making vs feasibility curves and studies. But is way off topic.
Only relevant point is conservation and availability of energy, with our kids, grand kids and beyond in mind, not just us and now. ..and I am NOT for not using our Oil or Gas, I am for "how" and by "who profits or decides for and from our rights" and with what consequences to our future.
Next step they are trying to implement is GRANTING the right of eminent domain to energy companies on the basis of "public utility and good" premise..let's see how we' d like that..see such as:http://marcellusdrilling.com/2011/05/pa-public-utility-commission-grants-utility-status-to-pipeline-company-giving-it-eminent-domain-powers/
if we are for Domestic usage of fossil fuels do we all support that? I for one will make a stand on my ground regardless..but ignorance and false data based legislation will bring that sooner or later..
Btw my father was a petrochemical and marine engineer that worked for Esso and most of the other 7 sisters for over 40 years. Please do not assume me to be a liberal, tree hugging uneducated person on the subject.
I have been on tankers with him transporting Arabian oil up the Miss. river to dump back into the ground in our depleted strategic reserves and have done plenty of research regarding the extraction/transportation/distribution/point of sale profits mechanisms of the energy trade. It's a commodity being sold in the international market to the highest bidder and domestic/patriotic facets have absolutely no bearing in it, other than advertising and policy creation towards the public. Maybe if the American people were more aware of who and from what country makes the most profits out of our domestic energy , we may have some awakenings.
d) I like what you said about being a good steward, but being stupid is judged by what we leave in our wake based on our decision making criteria. Regarding coal and trees, they serve other purposes than just energy consumption vectors, so let us consider that as well. As far tree hugging...I am for your original point....the right to their opinion, but through education, myself, I would just rather hug a warm something and hold a cool brewed beverage afterwards.
Thank you for the great points and opportunity for the discussion boiler man.
Yes, upon further inspection this is not the highly notable "free heat machine". It clearly does not have a light bulb. It's the little things that seperate the "free heat machine"!
I'm guessing that the "free heat machine" is the one I heard a salesman describe as having non conductive steel used in the legs it stands on............ Honest to Pete, I heard him say that.
Don't be a hater
This is what I'm talking about. It's the little things that add up. "Free heat machine" didn't invent fire, they just improved it. You definitely don't want to loose all of your heat down through the legs. It never made it to production, but they actually designed the legs to have a water jacket around them to draw what little heat transferred there. Definitely ahead of their time.
"Free heat machine" A different kind of gasification.
Wow! What a great discussion, thanks all! I'll have to re-read the thread a couple more times, there is a lot to digest here. In the meantime, have a great weekend. Chris.
Actually there is no question about it. Smoldering in a gasser is the same as smoldering in an OWB. To match the combustion efficiency of a batch burn boiler, one would have to remove and extinguish the fuel each time the aquastat satisfied, then reload when you needed more heat. There's a reason the Euro countries give no tax incentives unless storage is a part of the installation.
Scott (skfire), didn't mean to offend you either. I was defending friends and co-workers, all good hard working country folk, who are really proud of their OWB's getting them out from under the oil and propane companies. There's a lot of interest from people from all walks of life in alternative energy nowadays. Its an interest shared by rednecks and tree-huggers alike. And these individuals are doing something about it which I admire.
Sounds good Mike, maybe people are starting to make a change in the right direction!!
Up here things are not as you have experienced, but I can only hope for improvement.
Thank you Mike