boiler virgin - new house heating system

[willisl64]

All righty ladies and gents - I currently heat our 1000sqft bungalow with a smoke dragon wood stove. Love the wood heat, love to process wood - but sick and tired of the mess and dust in the house. We are planning to break ground in a year on a new house - two stories plus a full finished poured basement - 3500 finished sqft. Thinking that a boiler will let me heat my house w/ wood but w/o the mess. The Garns are certainly impressive to look at, but the price tag has shooed me away. I can get a 1000 gal propane tank for nothing for storage, so a tarm or eko with the storage in an unattached boiler house is what I am looking at? In floor heat, basebords and a heat exchanger in the a/c ducting are all options. I guess I am shouting out for opinions and suggestions on how to attack this. Any good reference materials you can point me at would be great, along with what you would do if you were in my shoes. Thanks in advance. PS - I know next to nothing about heating with hydronics, so be gentle.
Luke

 

[Nofossil]

My website (link in my signature below) has a section called 'Decisions, Decisions' that touches on some of this. It's not finished, but might help a bit.

If it were me, I'd seriously consider an attached boiler room, perhaps poured as part of the basement, that can share a nice tall chimney that's built into the house. An airtight steel door separating it from the house as well as an outside door wide enough for a wood cart would be nice. With a gasifier, the fire risks are much less than with other woodburning appliances. Stack temps are very low and there's no creosote. Almost through my fourth season and never cleaned the chimney - doesn't need it.

Mine's in the basement, and it's really nice not to have to go outside to deal with it. I can refuel literally in two minutes in my slippers. However, ashes and the occasional wisp of smoke would be better if they were isolated.

 

[Chris S]

My company builds new homes, and installs hydronic heating systems, and I'm biased, but here's my opinion.

The latest number I heard from NAHB on heating was only about 8% of new homes are heated hydronically, so all of us on this board are in the minority!!

If you can afford it, go radiant we have homes with some radiant, and some with all radiant heat. Radiant is the most comfortable heating system you can have. Those that we have installed radiant in only certain rooms, without exception state that they wish they had done more ( and usually they can, but will have redundant systems)

Baseboard, or panel radiators would be my second choice, baseboard being our standard for years. As I mentioned above a mix of radiant / baseboard is common.

We also have several hydro air systems, which heat the space, but are my least favorite, and I would not own one myself. People generally choose this type of system as the least expensive way to get AC and heat in a home. Blowing air around is not IMO comfortable, and leads to a "dustier" house, even with air cleaners. We choose hydroair over a straight furnace generally because our jobs are big enough to have 2 or more sytems, and our most common fuel is oil. It does not make sense to me to have 2 oil furnaces, and an oil hot water heater all in the same building. That's a lot of maintenance. I prefer one oil burner, and two or three airhandlers as necessary, and an indirect water heater.

All that being said, in my area for a home the size you are building, the cost difference from one end to the other could exceed $50,000. So compromises are inevitable.

Well that's my opinion, I'm sure someone will speak up and say how much they love forced air. So it begins...

 

[Eric Johnson]

I like old houses, and all mine have had cast iron radiators. Second only to infloor radiant for comfort, IMO, and better in some ways. It's like having a little wood stove in each room, and you can warm your hands, etc. plus dry mittens and other clothing. My jacket hangs right over a small radiator in our laundry room, and it's always nice and warm when I put it on.

 

[cguida]

Radient floor heat -- a modern miracle. We live on a 36x36 hot brick, and it is wonderful. Only, it is very confusing for the cat. She can't make up her mind where the most comfortabe spot on the floor is. Also, with its lower water temperature requirements, radient works better with EPDM-lined storage tanks. You can draw the heat down to around 100 degrees, and still be in good shape with radient heat, whereas with baseboard and 100 degree water -- all you get is circulators running all the time. We have both kinds (baseboard in upper floors), and like the man said, we wish it were all radient.

Now about the heat source, i.e. boiler --

There is a tendency on this forum for the answer to any question to always come back the same: European two-stage down-draft gasifier. Its not that the answer is wrong -- most of the time it is right. But it does crowd out alternatives which, in the big scheme of things, might be very much better.

Take your situation. We would probably agree that a house without a wood fire in it somewhere is just not all that homey. And since you are starting fresh, you have the opportunity to create something of outstanding beauty and utility right in the middle of your (radient floor) living space. In the basement you can have a boiler and storage tank. As part of the same masonry structure, you can have in the livingspace a fireplace/masonry heater; cook surface; bake oven, and just for good measure, a masonry heated double bed. (Or maybe just a warm masonry bench.) .. Whole thing would be the center and focal point of any home.

And nowdays, given new and very flexible design principles, it is possible for the average guy to build one of these things for himself, and not go too far wrong.

More information here

www.stovemaster.com
stove.ru
www.mainewoodheat.com (lots of nice pictures)

 

[ihookem]

I am also building a new house and want to go with hydronic heat. My basement is floor is already in but want to know if I can fasten pex tubing between the joists in the basement. If I can't do it this way I have to go with forced air. Can anyone tell me if this is a good idea?

 

[Chris S]

Staple up radiant is popular, and works well. go to http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/71.pdf
for the Wirsbo (uponor) manual. These techniques work with rehau, zurn etc.

If you buy your product from a good supply house, they will help you with heatloss calculations, and layout.
Ultra fin is also a "radiant" product you can look into

 

[ihookem]

Chris , I have been looking for someone that knows how it can be done. How far apart should I put the pex apart? Should I go between every joist or can I get away with every other joist? Thanks! I'm thinking of gettin a wood gun, but I want it to be outside.

 

[Chris S]

I sent you a pm on that, we generally go 8" OC with the tubing , I've seen pictures of 16" OC installs with large (3/4") tubing, I can't imagine that would heat very evenly.

Chris

 

[WoodNotOil]

Chris , I have been looking for someone that knows how it can be done. How far apart should I put the pex apart? Should I go between every joist or can I get away with every other joist? Thanks! I'm thinking of gettin a wood gun, but I want it to be outside.

These guys http://www.radiantec.com/installation-manual/ have great manuals with lots of information on installation.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I can get a 1000 gal propane tank for nothing for storage, so a tarm or eko with the storage in an unattached boiler house is what I am looking at? In floor heat, basebords and a heat exchanger in the a/c ducting are all options.

A gasifier with storage is definitely the way to go IMO. Nofo has it right (as usual) put it in the basement and run radiant in the whole house. No matter the initial added cost, you will be far ahead in terms of cost, comfort and low wood consumption in the long run. Well worth it! Good luck!