brain pickin

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fabguy01

New Member
Sep 1, 2008
171
Ravenna Michigan
building my own outdoor wood boiler and was looking for some feed back.
first why do most boiler co.s run their hot water feed to the pump off the bottom of the water jacket and the return to the top when the hottest water is at the top of the jacket because heat rises. I plan on feeding my pump from the top of the water jacket an runing the return from the house first through the firebox door and then to the bottom of the water jacket and as the water warms it will flow upward. does anyone have any imput of why this wouldent work?

also you all keep talking about secondary burn???? what is it? how does it work? can you retrofit an existing stove to do it? what parts? soooo many questions thanks nate
 
Hi Nate, Try clicking on one of the adds on this website, like the Econoburn add, or try www.bioheatusa.com, they both explain how gasification works. The secondary burn is when the gases emitted from the burning wood are burned by introducing superheated air to the hot gases...read the websites, they explain it better than I can. Good luck!
 
I will also add that the hi-efficiency stoves are all water jacketed on the primary chamber to help keep the wood from burning up there. So I'm envisioning a large OWB type unit with the firetubes running up from the secondary burn chamber, but instead of going through a small water jacket, have them go through a 150 gallon or so water tank that surrounds the upper firebox (and lower firebox to catch heat that makes it through the refractory)..... Gasifier with a decent amount of thermal storage built right in!!

It would basically be a down-draft garn at that point........
 
I will also add that the hi-efficiency stoves are all water jacketed on the primary chamber to help keep the wood from burning up there. So I’m envisioning a large OWB type unit with the firetubes running up from the secondary burn chamber, but instead of going through a small water jacket, have them go through a 150 gallon or so water tank that surrounds the upper firebox (and lower firebox to catch heat that makes it through the refractory)..... Gasifier with a decent amount of thermal storage built right in!!

This isn't quite making sense to me. Surrounding the primary firebox with water insures it stays "cool," which will result in additional creosote condensation on the walls of the firebox -- not what you want. All that creosote otherwise would be wood gas material to be gasified below. I think you want the primary firebox walls to be hot to maximize wood gas production and minimize creosote condensation. You also want the wood to burn in the primary firebox with controlled oxgen input to enhance pyrolysis. A cool firebox is contrary to the theory of gasification. The primary firebox should be insulated from the water (the more the better) to maximize heat and pyrolysis in the firebox. Controlled oxygen input controls the fire, not the temperature around the firebox.

The lower gasification burn chamber is not a secondary burn chamber as secondary burn is understood. Secondary burn operates at roughly 500-1100F. The refractory in this chamber is super-hot (2000F) to combust nearly 100% of the various chemicals given off during the primary burn. A water jacket around the back, sides and bottom of the gasification chamber likely is not problematical, as the gasification burn takes places in a refractory isolated from the walls of the chamber, and all that leaves the refractory is nearly 100% combusted gases (CO2 and water vapor).

Firetube design, at least in the Tarm, is nearly what you describe, if you omit surrounding the primary firebox with a water jacket. Instead, gases during primary burn are driven by a downdraft into the gasification refractory, and CO2 and water vapor remaining (virtually all other gases are now reduced simply to CO2 and water), which are now very hot, are exhausted through firetubes surrounded by water in the rear portion of the boiler. I'm assuming in the Tarm that the back wall of the primary firebox, for purposes of economy in construction, is the front wall of the water/firetube chamber, and that the back and bottom of the gasification chamber also are surrounded by water. Water also could surround the sides of the gasification chamber, but this would require a more complicated and expensive design.

The water chamber could be large (about 50 gal in the Tarm) like the Garn, but that makes a large, heavy, and expensive boiler. So, the alternative is a separate water storage tank, smaller, lighter, and less expensive boiler. Same result though.
 
I think you're right, but a few more thoughts:

In the EKO at least, the primary chamber is water jacketed. You do get creosote deposition, but it seems to stop at about 1/8" - 1/4". My brother's copy has a water jacket only on one side of the primary and secondary chambers. One problem is very high temperatures on the outside of the boiler in the non-jacketed areas, despite a goodly amount of insulation. A jacket that preheats incoming air doesn't do enough.

In my observations, the secondary combustion has temperatures well in excess of 2000 degrees. The secondary combustion starts in the nozzle and continues for about 12" before the visible flame ends. A few inches after that point, the flue gas is around 1500 degrees.
 
I think you’re right, but a few more thoughts

On second thought, the top of the primary firebox is water jacketed on the Tarm (there is an air bleed valve on top), and I will take a second look at the sides. Maybe all my theorizing is wrong! At least it sounded good in my head.

Creosote deposition in the Tarm primary firebox is about the same.
 
So there you go....... A Tarm-Inside-A-Tank!! We could call it a TARN! :) Haha..........
 
Sides are insulated, no water jacket as best as I can tell. So, water on top and back of the primary firebox and on bottom and back of the gasification chamber.
 
thanks for the input but this is not a gasifacation stove. any thoughts on the water ports
 
hey fabguy,

To me, just building an owb is like rebuilding a 350 chevy. Anybody can do it and they are (were) a dime a dozen. To answer your question about the positions of supply and return from what I've seen, by pulling off the bottom and returning on top it equalizes the boiler much better and there is a lesser change of boil over.

Check out central boilers site and look at their owb gasification unit. Maybe you might get some new ideas for your design.
 
Hey guys,

All your talk about water jacketed fireboxes on the downdrafters and the creosote they create reminds me of a design that I drew up and started a light weight experimental unit but failed to complete. I was thinking of using the conventional dd design, but instead of pulling the gasses back and then up through the Ex., pull the gasses up along side the primary firebox. There would be about a 1" gap on both sides and top of primary firebox so flue gasses could surround the entire chamber then exit through flues going horz. out the back to a collective box. Think a 250 gal fuel oil tank. It would be an firebox/ nozzle insert into a hollow cavity that then was surrounded by water. The flue gasses would give up heat to the water side and the firebox side at the same time. Basically the primary box is insulated by exhaust.
 
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