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Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by TexasAgs, Jan 16, 2007.

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  1. TexasAgs

    TexasAgs New Member

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    the back wall of the chimney box is 34" away...

    My mistake.. I thought Class A meant double wall, etc...

    I am enclosing in a chase.

    However I want to run it horizontal for about 27" Will that be too detrimental?

    They had one Cap left.... Rest all Gone!

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  2. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    You want to minimize the number of bends - The two 90's that you mention in the going out the back approach are OK, but a straight shot is FAR better and if you can do it is the preferred approach. I think it would look better aesthetically as well. Going straight up is what people would expect in a "real" chimney setup so it would look normal, but if they look into the box and see your pipe making a 90* bend to go out the back it will make them wonder what is going on.

    You are about right on the effective 5' loss per 90* bend, if you have two 90's, then your effective chimney height becomes 12' which is really marginal, while a straight shot gives you 22' which is about ideal. It would also put the Class A a bit closer to the house (careful it isn't to close!) and have it sitting on the top of the firebox, both of which will make the support problems easier. It also gets rid of a bit of hardware, making your cost presumably a small amount less.

    Since the top of the box is inside your wooden "chase" moisture shouldn't be an issue, after all you will need to have the top of the chase closed off anyway to support the Class A chimney, so where is the water going to come from?

    "Horizontal" runs shouldn't be level, they need a certain amount of pitch (1" in 12" as I recall) angled with the low side towards the stove. I forget the exact length limit, but you would be getting towards it with a 27" run.

    To me, the bottom line is that while going out the back would be a workable install if that were your only choice, the straight up install is so much better if you can do it that to me it's a no-brainer... (Of course, as a former LSU fan, I should know that isn't necessarily a given for an Aggie... :lol: )
  3. Hogwildz

    Hogwildz Minister of Fire

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    I thought horizontal pipe had to have 1/4" per foot or something like that. 1" per 12" is way steep.
  4. superduke

    superduke New Member

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    I purchased this same stove last year almost to the day. Installed stove in basement. It replaced a very small stove I had before.
    The stove does not seem to hold an overnight fire and the plate steel is not of too heavy gauge but I absoulutly think this stove is wonderful. It blew away my expectations totally. My basement is un insulated, this stove keeps it very warm. The glass stays very clean and it seems to not produce too much smoke, (depends upon wood being burnt). If this stove was to be upstairs or in an insulated environment, it would be the only stove you would ever need
  5. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    the more pitch the better Hog hot air accends
  6. seaken

    seaken Minister of Fire

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    Am I the only one squirming here? How can we possibly know what that thing is from here? This may be a disaster waiting to happen. It MAY be something different from what I think it is but I can't tell from these pictures. It appears to be a masonry alcove. What is the thermal mass? Was it tested to be used with a wood stove? Does it pass local building codes for use with a wood stove?

    Does pyrolysis concern anybody? You could be heading for a house fire with that setup. The stove price is only part of the equation. It won't be a good deal if you burn the house down. Doing it yourself is fine. But do you know what you are doing? Lowes will be no help. This looks very dangerous to me. If I were local to you I would have a meeting with the local code officer, the fire department, you and me, and the builder and we would hash it out. Unless I could be connvinced that this setup was safe I would walk away. And I would watch the papers for the report of your house fire.

    I need more pictures and a mechanical drawing of how that box is built into the side of the house before I could even begin to talk about how to hook this stove up to it. Any air space between masonry and wood framing members? If not, what rate of heat transfer? What is the k-factor of the masonry mass? Does it meet codes for thermal transfer? Can a Type HT (aka Class A) chimney be properly attached and supported? (Use of an anchor plate would be the most likely way to go but a Tee and wall support may work).

    Elk, am I over-reacting here? Would you approve such an install?

    Please don't play with fire.
  7. seaken

    seaken Minister of Fire

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    I hadn't heard that, Elk. I know they added the Century models to the Dutchwest line but I thought they were maintaining the Century branded models for the mass merchants.

    Anyway, the Century models are not really Vermont Castings. They are related through CFM and the Dutchwest brand but they are not a VC brand. Just a minor point I guess but I prickle at the assumption that Century is a Vermont Castings product. Century is a Century brand and is owned by CFM. Not that anybody cares. I am fighting a losing battle. I constantly hear from Century owners that they are a VC product. I guess it lends a certain validity. I think Century picked up more from the VC connection than the other way around. One of these days I will have to give up the fight and join the crowd. The VC brand doesn't mean what it used to.
  8. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I understand your concerns Sean, but if you read through this thread and some of TA's other threads, you will have a pretty fair notion of what he has, at least as much of an idea as any of us can get from the net without actually being there. The box is a masonry alcove, but it's HUGE, I suspect he'd be meeting CTC numbers just to the sides of the box (non-combustible) let alone any framing on the outside of it. I would second your ideas of consulting with local experts, but I don't think there is a lot of potential problem here, probably less than many of the other folks coming in for advice. (Note that Elk has been active on this thread but has not had heart failure.... :) )

    Obviously if TA isn't telling us stuff accurately, we might have a bigger problem, but that is the case with any of these long distance "internet consults" so I don't see anything different here.

    Gooserider
  9. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Yes, I think we all had concerns, but go back to the beginning of this thread where TA gives the specs for his fireplace. It's Texas sized and massive. I could park a small car in there.
  10. kevinmoelk

    kevinmoelk New Member

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    Yep, it seems huge indeed. It would be nice to get some more photos when you have a chance Texas. Perhaps a few with some tape measure shots to prove to everyone here the dimensions you are dealing with. I had my doubts at first, but you can see there is standard 3/4" oak flooring in front of the hearth. That flooring is roughly 2 1/4" wide. I count 17 boards for the opening, so that would be 38.25" wide... which is what Texas stated. Taking a gander at the height and depth is more difficult due to perspective, but I don't feel Texas is attempting to mislead anyone.

    -Kevin
  11. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Never meant to imply that he was deliberately trying to mislead anyone, I don't really feel that it's very likely on a forum like this since it would result in getting bad advice so why ask.... I just have to mention the possibility - I mean he might have accidentally used the tape measure that some guys give their wives to convince them about what 8" looks like :red: ;-P

    Gooserider
  12. kevinmoelk

    kevinmoelk New Member

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    I wasn't pointing my finger at anyone Goose. More trying to get Texas to take some more photos. Important details can get lost in translation, so pictures are very useful for the forums help.

    No trick rulers, but I have a 2 headed coin I like to use on occasion ;)

    -Kevin
  13. TexasAgs

    TexasAgs New Member

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    No wood framing here... ICF house My stone box pokes through the ICF wall to the outside

    I will be keeping the chimney inside of the Chimney box . I am only trying to decide if I should go straight out the top of the stone box (no clean-out "T") or to go out the back of the box and then "T" up . (with a good clean-out "T")

    You can see how big the chimney box is by looking at the 36" steel door that goes into it.

    Folk around here have been building fires right on top of the stone for years .

    I want to keep it inside of a steel box lined with firebrick. I thought it would be safer and more efficient. But I am just a dumb Aggie....
  14. TexasAgs

    TexasAgs New Member

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    Which kind of Pyrolysis? There are at least 4 different kinds?
  15. kevinmoelk

    kevinmoelk New Member

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    Take it easy Texas. The forum does not have x-ray vision and is not trying to incite anger. Only trying to get the most accurate informaton so we can help. Sean brings a wealth of experience to the forum, as do the other industry experts, so we are very lucky to have them aboard.

    Not sure what the door would prove since it's on the opposite side... you could build a chase far larger than the dimensions of the chimney itself. Let's see some more photos!!!!!!

    -Kevin
  16. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Am I missing something here? Only hearing about the firebox, not the chimney.
    If the chimney is standard masonry, why not just go straight up with a 6" stainless steel single wall right through the existing chimney?

    Going out through the rear of the masonry box and then up seem wasteful.
  17. TexasAgs

    TexasAgs New Member

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    There is no chimney yet... I will be building one. There is only a stone box (Pic) with no opening at all, yet and a wooden chase that LOOKS like a chimney(other pic) . That is what I am asking y'all about. How should my chimney run... Straight up or out the back and then up.

    I have enough room to do it either way so I get to pick. But if it makes more sense to go straight up and a clean-out "T" is not of really benifit, then up she goes....

    Attached Files:

  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah, now I got it - I was fooled again.

    OK, so it sounds like you can go either way. All things being equal, a straight up chimney will work better. But if the stove is rear vent only, then the stove may come too far out for you to turn upwards and then tie into a chimney which rests on top of the masonry structure.

    If you are using a straight up, you will probably use a device called a "roof support" which clamps around the insulated pipe and allow some to extend below it and some to extend above it. Check the specs first to make certain it will hold the height needed. This will require you to do a bit of framing right on top of the fireplace structure.

    The other option is to use a "ceiling support" which is often a round or square box that frames into the ceiling....either of your firebox or some frame you will add immediately above. A straight up will also cost quite a bit less because the T is very expensive.

    Most important thing here is that the black single or double INTERIOR pipe should connect to your insulated chimney INSIDE the fireplace where it can be seen easily - no connections like this are allowed in the "chase" outside of your normal in-room view.

    I hope that is somewhat clear!
  19. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The stove is a steel stove, straight up vent. Forget the cleanout tee. Follow the manufacturer's and Craig's suggestions.
  20. kevinmoelk

    kevinmoelk New Member

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    Texas, thanks for the explanation, however I feel something is getting lost here. A repeat of the same, or very similar picture is of no value. Here is what I would like to see pictures of if possible:

    -More photos of the firebox, with tape measure to show the dimensions. I'm not suggesting you are a liar, but it would be helpful to know exactly HOW you are measuring the firebox to make sure there are no wires crossed.

    - A photo of the firebox looking up into the chase.

    -A photo of the room in the back of the chase, what's behind that door

    -A photo of the inside of the attic looking at the chase construction

    -A photo of the top of the chase

    -A photo of the top of the chase looking down into it back towards the firebox.

    A tape measure will be helpful in all of these shots if possible. And I whole heartedly agree with going straight up if possible. If you are a meticulous researcher, as you seem to be, then your findings will bring you to the same conclusion. Good draft trumps easy cleaning.

    -Kevin
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