BRAND NEW HEARTHSTONE PHOENIX 3 WEEKS AGO WITH MANY MANY PROBLEMS !!!!!!!!

[MOHAWK1]

i have tried different combinations, the HRV off,low,med,high window open, door open, cold air returns off, on etc, does not effect the stove as far as i can see, when the draft is fully open i can hear the air really being suck in, i checked over the stove for obstructions in the flue chimney, air intake etc and found nothing

 

[snowleopard]

Just to give you an idea of what you should expect with this stove:

This was my first winter with a woodstove in this house, and my first year with a soapstone stove. I also have my stove on the bottom floor, and like your house, that story is earth-sheltered across the back and tapering down two sides. I have vents and fans in upstairs bathrooms that I run intermittently (required a lot less since the stove keeps the house pleasantly drier now). I had considered an HRV system, but wanted to see if the stove would help with air circulation, and I believe it has, so at this time am not planning an HRV installation.

I am burning wood that some people refer to as `garbage' wood: a mix of aspen and cottonwood, seasoned, but not well-stored.

My typical long-burn routine is to push the coals to one side, clean out ashes (scooped from inside of stove--I don't mess with the ashpan), push coals back to the right side, clean out the rest of the ahses, scrape coals to the front of the stove, stack on a `cap' split (flat on one side so that it contains all the coals underneath it with good contact), put in two more good-sized splits, and maybe one more small one to fill in a hole, and then shut down the air, crank down the stove pipe damper which I had installed with the chimney, and pat the stove, thank it for keeping my house warm, and wander away to amuse myself elsewhere. I have gotten close to a 12-hour burn with that routine, when temps outside have been -30 to -40F. I've read some posts where people say that these stoves require 7-8 small splits to operate, but I don't find that is the case at all. I have no trouble getting overnight burns.

Once a day, at least, I open up the stove full bore and let it rip for about 20 minutes, per manufacturer's recommendation. This helps prevent excessive creosote buildup, I"m told. Other than that, I rarely need to let it run full open. I might leave the door cracked for just a few minutes at the beginning to get plenty of oxygen to the fire until the seconaries are ignited.

I do clean the glass myself--sometimes it's self-cleaning, sometimes not, and I just do it because I like the looks of a fire behind a super-clean glass. If you have creosote on the glass, white vinegar works well to remove it easily. I use Rutland glass cleaner regularly, because it helps prevent buildup, makes it easier to clean the next time.

This is what your stove should be capable of, as well. The dealer did not quite come out and say, "This stove is idiot-proof," but tiptoed right up to the line. If all the other factors are in place, it should be making you very happy. As much as stoves do, anyway.

Hope this helps.

 

[DanCorcoran]

i have tried different combinations, the HRV off,low,med,high window open, door open, cold air returns off, on etc, does not effect the stove as far as i can see, when the draft is fully open i can hear the air really being suck in, i checked over the stove for obstructions in the flue chimney, air intake etc and found nothing

We sometimes hear that an HRV will
"bring in air" for appliances such as
woodstoves and fireplaces, but this is
essentially incorrect. An HRV brings only as
much air as it exhausts and cannot provide air
for a combustion appliance, or a large
exhaust appliance such as a kitchen exhaust
or clothes dryer.

I found this quote on a separate website that discusses the installation of woodstove in homes with HRV systems:

http://www.bowsertech.com/PDFs/solidobc2.pdf

Do you think your dealer is really familiar with the peculiarities of homes with HRV systems? (P.S. I'm not claiming any knowledge myself...I didn't know what HRV meant 30 minutes ago!)

 

[snowleopard]

i have tried different combinations, the HRV off,low,med,high window open, door open, cold air returns off, on etc, does not effect the stove as far as i can see, when the draft is fully open i can hear the air really being suck in, i checked over the stove for obstructions in the flue chimney, air intake etc and found nothing

While some people say that a stovepipe damper is unnecssary with an EPA stove, I had one installed with mine, and it serves me very well. I use it judiciously, and it helps keep heat in the house rather than going up the pipe. One night recently we had an amazing windstorm, and I could hear wind being sucked through the pipe as well. If I hadn't had the damper that night, I don't think I would have kept a fire going, because Ithink it would have hyper-combusted. DIdn't experiment to find out, just used the damper. My damper installation is directly above the stove, and I use one that was designed as part of the Excel chimney system.


On which floor is the outside air intake for the HRV system?

 

[North of 60]

i have tried different combinations, the HRV off,low,med,high window open, door open, cold air returns off, on etc, does not effect the stove as far as i can see, when the draft is fully open i can hear the air really being suck in, i checked over the stove for obstructions in the flue chimney, air intake etc and found nothing

We sometimes hear that an HRV will
"bring in air" for appliances such as
woodstove and fireplaces, but this is
essentially incorrect. An HRV brings only as
much air as it exhausts and cannot provide air
for a combustion appliance, or a large
exhaust appliance such as a kitchen exhaust
or clothes dryer.

I found this quote on a separate website that discusses the installation of woodstove in homes with HRV systems:

http://www.bowsertech.com/PDFs/solidobc2.pdf

Do you think your dealer is really familiar with the peculiarities of homes with HRV systems? (P.S. I'm not claiming any knowledge myself...I didn't know what HRV meant 30 minutes ago!)

Real world......
A couple of scenarios that can happen on an HRV. The Outdoor filter on one side of the air to air exchanger can become dirtier than the exhaust filter that protects the exchanger causing a negative in the home and vise versa if the exhaust side becomes more restricted.
You can have a two fan system balanced so you have a greater cfm on the supply to run that positive.
I have seen in most situations that the outside air side becomes plugged up with frost, causing a negative if defrost was not an option on that unit.

 

[summit]

check the blanket on the top of the baffle. make sure it is laying flat, and all the bricks are seated correctly. Make sure the stainless retainer in the front is in place.

 

[johnstra]

And just to rule it out, you should go purchase some kiln-dried firewood bundles. See how the stove performs with that wood. If nothing changes you can go after other issues.

 

[North of 60]

And just to rule it out, you should go purchase some kiln-dried firewood bundles. See how the stove performs with that wood. If nothing changes you can go after other issues.

Mohawk says his wood is 16 to 18%MC in his 1st post. But did not say if it was taken in the center of a fresh split. BUT he did say he has also used compressed bio bricks to rule that out.

 

[johnstra]

Ah, I missed that. I'd still try known very dry wood just to know how it behaves.

 

[Todd]

Check the air slide mechanism, make sure it's opening all the way.

 

[heatwise]

im glad many of you are helping the op with his issues. i can speak for the phoenix and its abilities to run extremely well. i think you all have it covered and im hoping for a positive outcome, i would visualy check the air on the left side to make sure its going inside the stove. that is what came to mind first on my list. theyres not much air going in but i can vouch for it to be the right amount. that blanket on top was mentioned and the wood, all i can say about wood is that i cant get the stove as hot or burn well with some species. one example is some chunks of locust, the green stuff in colour. i had some rounds cut short for stepping stones that never got used its about 15 years old.i split it up earlier today and am burning it. because of the chunky size and type it doesnt start or heat like some plain old maple. if i put some pieces of pallet wood in with it, it gets it going, dont give up and again thanking everyone for chipping in here because i dont have all the solution to the problem but love the stove. pete

 

[MOHAWK1]

hello and thanks for all the information and help on this issue, i went through the parts list section of the owners manual and located everything in the list on the stove, except the 2 ceramic board pieces it list, not to sure what that is or where to find it, just trying to rule everything out, thank you

 

[Mt Ski Bum]

since it sounds like it's not the stove, the wood, or the chimney, & because there have been some concerns expressed over possible neutral/negative pressure in the house, I'd get an outside air kit for the stove, so it draws comustion air from outside, eliminating neg. pressure concerns.

 

[BrotherBart]

Sounds like you need to get a fire going with small stuff to build a coal bed and then after that is done load bigger stuff. With a two inch or so "slot" cut from front to back in the middle of the coal bed before you put the bigger stuff on top of it.

Give it a shot.

 

[snowleopard]

since it sounds like it's not the stove, the wood, or the chimney, & because there have been some concerns expressed over possible neutral/negative pressure in the house, I'd get an outside air kit for the stove, so it draws comustion air from outside, eliminating neg. pressure concerns.

Whenever I contemplate cutting a hole in my house, I become very introspective. With all due respect intended, it may be that Mohawk has not exhausted all the take-two-asprin approaches, and may want to do so before he takes it to the surgical level.

hello and thanks for all the information and help on this issue, i went through the parts list section of the owners manual and located everything in the list on the stove, except the 2 ceramic board pieces it list, not to sure what that is or where to find it, just trying to rule everything out, thank you

The ceramic boards are also known as the baffle--the lower one rests on the afterburner tubes that you can see in the top of the firebox.

Some folks use woodash and newspaper to clean their stove glass, and have no problems. Other people get on here posting questions about where the fine scratches in their stove window came from. I use a stove-glass cleaner I get from the dealer that sold me the stove, and wet paper towels. Takes just a few minutes a day if I keep after it. If I let it go, and have creosote on the glass, white vinegar gets that off very well. If you have baked-on crud that isn't coming off easily, you could slip the door off the hinges (pull up--do not force, finesse it) and lay it flat in a safe place. Put a terrycloth towel over it and saturate the creosote area w/vinegar and let it sit for a bit. Don't flood it or the gasket will get soaked.) A daily wipe is more than some people are willing to put into stove maintenance, but I really enjoy watching the fire and consider it a small price. Sometimes the firewash works well, other times it doesn't--depends upon wood, etc. I think you'll find a lot less problems with the glass once the burning problem gets solved.

The reason that I asked on which floor the HRV intake is located is because an air intake on the upper stories, whether passive or fan-assisted, can contribute to something called chimney effect--the disruption of the pressure differential from the bottom of the stovepipe to the top, which is partially responsible for the draw. Once you have a good heat in the stovepipe, it helps overcome that. (Some people get this started by putting crumpled newspaper by the base of the stack in their stove and burning that off to help get the air flowing upwards briskly.)

You can measure the draft in the stove with an instrument that costs about 100USD--or your dealer should have one that you can borrow gratis, all things considered. This will tell you if your draft is insufficient/sufficient/excessive. The manual for the Phoenix says that it requires between .6 and 1.0 water column; above that number, installation of a stovepipe damper is recommended.

The maximum height allowable for a Phoenix stovepipe is 30'. With a 25' chimney, you should be well clear of that maximum, but every factor that reduces draw effectively shortens that allowable height. If you throw in a 45 bend, you're compromising that a bit. If there's a vertical run, that's another compromise. Location in terms of distance from ridge, trees or other obstructions around the house, and more can further impact that. If these are already marginal, then even a minor factor like chimney (or stack) effect might have a disproportionate effect.

I'm confused by the height you mentioned, though, because my two-story house has a chimney almost that high. My stovepipe runs over five feet from the stove to the first ceiling; floor joists and floor/ceiling is at least another foot thick; another eight feet through the upper story, another foot for ceiling joists, about five feet through the cold attic, and then another three or four feet above the roof to clear the ridgeline with sufficient height for draw. If you have standard height ceilings (8'), tjm floor joists, and the stove installed on a low hearth, that's 24' just to get to the top of the ceiling joists. Is it possible that you have been misled?

Mrs. Peacock. In the kitchen. With the lead pipe.

 

[ansehnlich1]

After extensive reading of this thread, coupled with a day or two of pondering, weighing the facts as presented, and at grave risk to life and limb, I speculate, possibly contrary to popular opinion, that the problem here is the wood.

Unseasoned wood is to blame.

I know MOHAWK1 indicated moisture readings, I'd really like to hear if those readings were taken on the interior/inner surface of a fresh split piece of wood.

Barring that the wood is to blame, the stove itself may have an obstruction or manufacturing defect, though I surmise unlikely.

I say throw 8 or 10 rolled pieces of newspaper in there, about 10 or 12 one inch splits of kiln dried 2x4's, then good seasoned dry wood on top, and stuff it to the gills. Strike a match to that paper and let the door open for a few minutes. If that doesn't take care of the situation I don't know what would.

 

[summit]

After extensive reading of this thread, coupled with a day or two of pondering, weighing the facts as presented, and at grave risk to life and limb, I speculate, possibly contrary to popular opinion, that the problem here is the wood.

Unseasoned wood is to blame.

I know MOHAWK1 indicated moisture readings, I'd really like to hear if those readings were taken on the interior/inner surface of a fresh split piece of wood.

Barring that the wood is to blame, the stove itself may have an obstruction or manufacturing defect, though I surmise unlikely.

I say throw 8 or 10 rolled pieces of newspaper in there, about 10 or 12 one inch splits of kiln dried 2x4's, then good seasoned dry wood on top, and stuff it to the gills. Strike a match to that paper and let the door open for a few minutes. If that doesn't take care of the situation I don't know what would.

I concur... bio blocks are hard to get going, and are pressed so dense that don't burn like good firewood does, they should not be a measure of how well your stove will work. Dry firewood is key, and getting the proper fire established outta the gate is key. What is needed here is the log cabin stack (alternate larger kindling and smaller splits as you go up) around a hearty bed of tinder. wide open air, door cracked, let it rip for 10 minutes minimum before you close the door... if any moisture is hissing out atcha after this time, your wood is proobably suspect.

 

[snowleopard]

After extensive reading of this thread, coupled with a day or two of pondering, weighing the facts as presented, and at grave risk to life and limb, I speculate, possibly contrary to popular opinion, that the problem here is the wood.

so . . . you're saying it's Mr. Green?

with a hatchet?

in the woodshed?

 

[Highbeam]

In addition to dry wood, the stone stoves need smaller wood than most people realize. If you can't load the stove with 5-7 splits then your splits are too large. The smaller split size is even more important with wet wood.

 

[snowleopard]

In addition to dry wood, the stone stoves need smaller wood than most people realize. If you can't load the stove with 5-7 splits then your splits are too large. The smaller split size is even more important with wet wood.

I've had differing experiences with this. I'm up in the night reloading my stove because I'm down to using the last batch of wood I've got. These rounds are so small that it takes several splits and rounds to fill the stove, and the additional surface area means that I can't build an overnight fire with them.

My ideal fire is built with a flat-ish `cap' split that I put over the coals, which have been raked to the front, then a big one that fills the stove from the cap to the back horizontally, and is as tall as will fit comfortably under the afterburn tubes, and then a third mid-sized one that fills in the space above the cap and rests agains the big one. If there's room for a fourth one, I'll tuck that in there just to fill the space. This only works with very-well seasoned wood, but works very well--this is the configuration with which I got the 11.5 hour effective burn time (abundent coal bed left, still generating serious heat, kept house at 65 when it was -20F outside).

Meanwhile, OP has concluded (correctly) that, while we have concern for his problem, this is High Play for us, and has wandered away, leaving us once again with a plethora of solutions and no way of knowing how the story ended . . . .

Alack.

 

[Jags]

hello and thanks for all the information and help on this issue, i went through the parts list section of the owners manual and located everything in the list on the stove, except the 2 ceramic board pieces it list, not to sure what that is or where to find it, just trying to rule everything out, thank you

Luceee - you got some 'splainin' to do. Your stove is not going to act right unless the baffle boards are installed correctly. Locate and confirm this, please.

After that is confirmed and you are still having problems:

It's your wood, silly.

 

[colin.p]

the dealer did the install, the kind of chimeny is ICC not sure what kind that is or who makes it, the HRV is the system in the house that brings fresh air into the house and takes out the old stuff,

ICC chimneys http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/iccrsf/icc-rsf-home

I have one, seems to work ok for me.

 

[Highbeam]

So many people think that their wood is dry. If his wood is marginal than those smaller splits will help. His problem is heating the stone up so smaller wood is always better. The yule log/long burn is the opposite of his problem.

 

[snowleopard]

In addition to dry wood, the stone stoves need smaller wood than most people realize. If you can't load the stove with 5-7 splits then your splits are too large. The smaller split size is even more important with wet wood.

I can agree with that. I thought you were generalizing this to all circumstances, since I've seen you post that before. So that's just how you get your initial hot burn going? How do you load a stove for day-long/overnight burns?

What are your thoughts regarding the chimney height? I would have supposed that in a three-story house, a full-run chimney is going to be closer to 32-36' than 25'.

 

[Highbeam]

If he truly has three stories then the chimney height is not 25'. Come'on each level is more than 8' and even a shallow 4:12 roof nearly always requires another 8' from the top floor ceiling. I could maybe buy 35' min since chimney height is measured from the flue collar. Maybe he was doing the math assuming a 3' head loss for each 90, or maybe he was giving actual chimney height per his receipt which would be broken up into class A chimney and then connector pipe. In any case, the extra tall chimney would make for lots of draft and should help overcome poor wood. It will also pull heat right out of the stove.

I live in a moderate climate so we are often starting fires. On all but the coldest nights we use the smaller 3-5" splits and load them tight. 5 or so splits easy. On really cold nights I look for those monsters to get more #s of wood in the stove. It doesn't really seem to extend burn time too much. Seems that tightly packed smaller splits are pretty close to a few big logs. The exception is using big huge splits.

I've been doing a new thing with my heritage and getting great results. Load that firebox full, use whole firebox meaning lay logs against the glass. Seriously, every inch of box possible. The glass will burn clean and I am getting longer burns and more heat due to the bigger fuel charge.