Breakwell Pellet Stove Electrical problem

[SBLANC]

I just purchased a Breakwell Big E furnace pellet stove. I installed it per Breakwells specifications.
It is connected to a GFIC outlet. When I turn on the stove, I hear a motor (or fan?) running. After approximately 45 seconds, the stove trips the GFIC breaker. The GFIC is rated for 15 amps. I'm guessing something else is tuning on to start the ignition process. I do not know the timming cycle for the stove. It is not in the ownwers manual. Other than removing the GFIC breaker, does anyone have any suggestions.
Thanks,
Steve

 

[restorer]

I just purchased a Breakwell Big E furnace pellet stove. I installed it per Breakwells specifications.
It is connected to a GFI outlet. When I turn on the stove, I hear a motor (or fan?) running. After approximately 45 seconds, the stove trips the GFI breaker. The GFI is rated for 15 amps. I'm guessing something else is tuning on to start the ignition process. I do not know the timming cycle for the stove. It is not in the ownwers manual. Other than removing the GFI breaker, does anyone have any suggestions.
Thanks,
Steve

If you have the auto-igniter, it might be the current draw for the heater unit? Does you manual list the amperage per motor/igniter? Is the GFI new, or fresh? I have had some fail when they were used at maximum rating and frequently tripped. Have you contacted the dealer for help?

 

[SBLANC]

Unfortunately, the Owners Manual does not list amperages. The GFIC breaker is less than 6 months old. I contacted the dealer. They suggested replacing the GFIC with a non-GFIC outlet. I have called, and emailed, the manufactuerer, so far no response. I think my next step will be running an extension cord, from a non-GFIC outlet, to make sure the stove is operational. I will hook up an amp meter, and measure the amount of current it draws. This is my first pellet stove. I wish there was a flow chart that showed the logic and/or ignition sequence.
Thanks,
Steve

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

for starters. GFI's wont trip if there overloaded. They will only trip if there is a ground fault, or its bad. For testing purposes, run a extension cord off of a close outlet thats not GFI and see what happens.

 

[Andre B.]

A GFI breaker goes in the breaker panel and can serve more then one outlet they do trip on current overload or a ground fault.
A GFI outlets go in each outlet box and I believe only trip on a ground fault.

 

[GVA]

SBLANC
is it a breaker or a outlet?
MSG and ANDRE are both right?
the problem with GFCB's are they don't like shared or switched neutrals..... and pellet stoves unfortunatly switch the neutral when the vacuum switch closes (Most electricians know this...... engineers didn't learn this one though)
Any way if it is a GFCB is the stove the only thing on the circuit?
If it is a GFCI (outlet) is it wired right? ie. power in goes to line terms and downstream protection wired to load terms. (again if the load is hooked up to another outlet it can cause erratic tripping in addition to the stove switching it's neutral.

AGREED........ Try it on another outlet..

 

[guysr]

The quickest way to find out about the Breckwell problems is to call #1-866-606-8444 ext 104 Should be able to tell you about the amperage and possible causes .
guysr

 

[stoveguy2esw]

igniters usually draw at about 300 watts, at least ours do , and gfci outlets can be fooled by them into thinking there is a ground fault. some do some dont. we recently had to replace a gfci outlet in our lab as it was tripping during igniter switchon on one of our units , put in new gfci outlet and the problem disappeared. it may very well be that outlet. i agree that you should start with a different outlet , possibly one without gfi. and see what the unit does from there.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

igniters usually draw at about 300 watts, at least ours do , and gfci outlets can be fooled by them into thinking there is a ground fault. some do some dont. we recently had to replace a gfci outlet in our lab as it was tripping during igniter switchon on one of our units , put in new gfci outlet and the problem disappeared. it may very well be that outlet. i agree that you should start with a different outlet , possibly one without gfi. and see what the unit does from there.

Sweet. learned something new today. I could totally see how a resistive heating element could fool a gfi.
Good imput!

 

[GVA]

igniter usually draw at about 300 watts, at least ours do , and gfci outlets can be fooled by them into thinking there is a ground fault. some do some dont. we recently had to replace a gfci outlet in our lab as it was tripping during igniter switchon on one of our units , put in new gfci outlet and the problem disappeared. it may very well be that outlet. i agree that you should start with a different outlet , possibly one without gfi. and see what the unit does from there.

I don't want to really dispute this but a lightbulb is a resistive load.......
A hairdryer draws about 1500watts and doesn't trip GFCI's as are required in all bathrooms etc.
300 watts is 2.5 amps
yeah GFCI's go bad after time but this is pushing it a bit after 6 months (which is when he said it was installed)
Nuisance tripping is usually caused by poor or improper wiring of the circuit. Or what is plugged into it.
to test this theory he could plug a hair dryer into the outlet and see if it trips I doubt it will.
Just an opinion here don't be too hard on me guys :grrr:

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im no sparky, and dont prentend to be one. Once, when we sold lennox, they sent us all these GFI protected power strips, and about half the time they worked on there pellet stoves.. They had exactly the same problem as described. I wrote it off as bad GFI's and that might have been correct, or it could be a pellet stove problem like stoveESW talks about. You have a very good point GVA, and i dont have a answer.

 

[Gooserider]

Now I'm not a pellet stove person, but it occurs to me that nobody has been talking about one obvious possible problem, namely that there is a defect in the stove? I know I've seen more than a few electronic things that failed high-pot testing but still appeared to work perfectly. My last job we would get a unit from production and spend a good two weeks testing it w/o any failures, then see it fail high-pot just before we sent it out the door.

As I understand the way a pellet stove works, it has a sequence where different parts get turned on as it powers up and self tests, it seems quite possible to me that a part could be shorting the neutral to ground, which would only show up as the GFCI tripping, but not until that part got turned on.

I would CAUTIOUSLY test with a non-GFCI outlet, and if things worked, talk to the dealer about why the stove is setting the thing off.

(BTW, panel mount GFCI breakers will trip either on overload or ground fault, the outlets only look for ground faults)

Gooserider

 

[GVA]

Now I'm not a pellet stove person, but it occurs to me that nobody has been talking about one obvious possible problem, namely that there is a defect in the stove? I know I've seen more than a few electronic things that failed high-pot testing but still appeared to work perfectly. My last job we would get a unit from production and spend a good two weeks testing it w/o any failures, then see it fail high-pot just before we sent it out the door.

As I understand the way a pellet stove works, it has a sequence where different parts get turned on as it powers up and self tests, it seems quite possible to me that a part could be shorting the neutral to ground, which would only show up as the GF tripping, but not until that part got turned on.

I would CAUTIOUSLY test with a non-GF outlet, and if things worked, talk to the dealer about why the stove is setting the thing off.

(BTW, panel mount GF breakers will trip either on overload or ground fault, the outlets only look for ground faults)

Gooserider

Lost a whole post due to the upgrade
We are still waiting to hear f it is a GFCI or GFCB
Both check voltage to ground not neutral to ground.

an example of GF's being wierd..... Take a wiggy or other auto detect meter (lazymans meter) and check voltage to neutral on the outlet alls well right??? 120vac.... Now check voltage to ground...... The GF tripped........ Is the outlet bad....NO Is the meter bad.....NO
Now a stove switching a neutral can cause a similar trip seen it thousands of times and also a a shared neutral in the circuit.......... but still waiting for a response here from sblanc
If its a short the breaker will pop GF or not as long as he's not hugging the stove he'll be fine for the troubleshooting part of this thread...... ;-)

 

[GVA]

Oh forgot to add unless that stove is located outside or in a wet location GFCI's are not required or if there is a danger of accidentally dropping the stove into a sink or bathtub :cheese: (not likely huh?)
Bedrooms would be AFCI's but then again you can't install a solid burning appliance in a bedroom anyway.............. ;-)

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Now I'm not a pellet stove person, but it occurs to me that nobody has been talking about one obvious possible problem, namely that there is a defect in the stove? I know I've seen more than a few electronic things that failed high-pot testing but still appeared to work perfectly. My last job we would get a unit from production and spend a good two weeks testing it w/o any failures, then see it fail high-pot just before we sent it out the door.

As I understand the way a pellet stove works, it has a sequence where different parts get turned on as it powers up and self tests, it seems quite possible to me that a part could be shorting the neutral to ground, which would only show up as the GFCI tripping, but not until that part got turned on.

I would CAUTIOUSLY test with a non-GFCI outlet, and if things worked, talk to the dealer about why the stove is setting the thing off.

(BTW, panel mount GFCI breakers will trip either on overload or ground fault, the outlets only look for ground faults)

Gooserider

we are not saying the stove isnt broke, its part of isolating the problem, and the easiest thing to test is the outlet buy trying out another outlet. You can test with a non GFI all day long, if something shorts out the breaker will flip. I would bet its the outlet and not the stove, but if a non GFI works fine then its a simple solution, change the outlet. It can be brain damage trying to trouble shoot pelletstoves, you start with the simple things first. If it flips the breaker on the other outlet, then the problem becomes much more difficult and he will have to get the dealer involved.

 

[Gooserider]

If the short to ground is very close to or at the neutral side of the circuit, you will NOT trip the breaker on a regular circuit. A regular breaker trips based on load, and an N-G short doesn't change the load, because the current goes through the working load which limits the overall current flow. The current simply returns along both the Neutral and ground wires.

The problem might also be something that has a high resistance fault to ground - I've seen leaky isolation caps which wouldn't pass enough current to trip a breaker, but would trip a high-pot machine instantly. The equipment appeared 100% perfectly functional otherwise. When I was doing test engineer at my last job, we had a chronic problem with high-pot failures causing "frequent flyer" boards until I made our vendor change their process to include EVERY board getting high-pot tested before returning it to us. A high-pot test isn't quite the same as a GFCI, but it's torturing the same current path, and if you can't pass a high-pot you will probably also trip a GFCI if you plugged into one.

A GFCI breaker or outlet acts more like an accountant. Basic electrical theory says that current out must equal current in. A GFCI compares the current going out the Hot wire to what is coming back on the Neutral, and trips if they aren't identical to within a very minute tolerance, less than the milliamps it takes for a dangerous shock. This is why GVA's "wiggy" test will trip most GFCI's, the meter will pass more current to ground than the tolerance level, unless you are using a high input impedance DVM. The current then fails to return via the Neutral wire, so the GFCI says things aren't balanced and trips. I forget the exact spec on the imbalance needed to trip a GFCI, but I know that a MegOhm resistor will pass enough to do it.

Actually MSG, I would have thought it would be EASIER to figure troubleshoot the problem if he had something that tripped a normal breaker - that would mean you had a real short and just need to unplug bits until you find the one that makes the difference. At least thats what I found on other stuff that I've tested....

Gooserider

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I think for the non engineer, just trying a differnt socket would be a little easier then starting unplugging stove parts Great information, thanks for the GFI education.

 

[SBLANC]

Thanks for all of the discussion on my GFCI problem. Let me answer some of the questions asked. Then I'll fill you in on the latest results.
My shop has GFCI outlets. The GFCI outlet I'm plugging the stove into is the first outlet in a string of 5 outlets. The remaining 4 outlets are GFI'd by this outlet.
From reading the discussions, it seems I was chasing the wrong problem (too much current being drawn).
I ran an extension cord from a non-GFI'ed outlet. The stove did not trip the 15 amp breaker in the panel. The stove seems to run fine. I replaced the existing GFCI outlet with a 20 amp GFCI outlet (still focused on the current problem). The stove runs, and has not yet tripped the GFCI. Today, I'm going to plug the stove into a different 15 amp GFCI outlet and see if the stove trips this 15 amp GFCI. As Gooserider has been mentioned, GFCI outlet is not a load limiting device, and the breaker in the panel for this curcuit is a 15 amp breaker. So if the problem is one of too much current being drawn, the 15 amp breaker in the panel should trip. The different amp rating on GFCI outlets must be for the differing plug styles (a 20 amp outlet has the small horizontal slot on the neutral side). Maybe the problem is as simple as a "bad" GFCI outlet?

 

[Gooserider]

No problem on the GFI education - glad to share. It is one of those things where I find alot of people coming from an electrician background have a terrific understanding of how to run wire, but not a great background in how some of the parts work internally. Folks coming from an electronics background tend to be the opposite - I've had to do a fair bit of study to get to the moderate level of electrician skill that I have, and still tend to work with frequent references to my code books.

From what Sblanc is saying, he did the same diagnostics that I would have, and checked against a non-GFCI circuit, which rules out any problems with excess current draw from the stove.

This tells me that his problem is either a flaky outlet, or a ground fault in the stove. (First level check for a ground fault is to put a DMM between the neutral and ground pins on the power cord - you should read open circuit or a VERY high resistance, in the multi MegOhm range)

He then replaced the GFCI outlet, and appears to have solved the problem, which suggests that it was a flaky outlet.

BTW, If I recall my Code correctly, he shouldn't be using a 20 amp outlet on that circuit unless the breaker at the panel is also 20 amp, all the wiring in the circuit is 12g, and there are no 15 amp devices between the 20 amp outlet and the panel - I believe you can have 15 amp devices downstream, but not up. (The reasoning being that you don't want someone plugging a 20 amp device into that outlet if it's only on a 15 amp circuit)

Gooserider

 

[GVA]

BTW, If I recall my Code correctly, he shouldn't be using a 20 amp outlet on that circuit unless the breaker at the panel is also 20 amp, all the wiring in the circuit is 12g, and there are no 15 amp devices between the 20 amp outlet and the panel - I believe you can have 15 amp devices downstream, but not up. (The reasoning being that you don't want someone plugging a 20 amp device into that outlet if it's only on a 15 amp circuit)

Gooserider

True but exceptions are that a 15 amp outlet can be put in the 20 amp circuit, but not a 20 outlet on a 15 amp circuit.
The amperage of all appliances now (well about 95% of them) will not be over a total of 15amps each..... Vacuums, Hairdryers, Most power tools etc. Due to people doing the same as you said.

 

[SBLANC]

Once again Gooserider is correct. I connected my stove to another 15 amp GFI outlet and it did not trip the outlet. So unless this becomes an intermittent problem, I'm thinking it was a bad GFCI outlet.
I have 12 ga wire. I will put a 15 amp GFIC outlet in place of the 20 amp I put in. Either that, or put in a 20 amp breaker.
County Inspector checks out my install tomorrow.
Thanks again for all the input!

 

[Gooserider]

Once again Gooserider is correct. I connected my stove to another 15 amp GFI outlet and it did not trip the outlet. So unless this becomes an intermittent problem, I'm thinking it was a bad GFCI outlet.
I have 12 ga wire. I will put a 15 amp GFIC outlet in place of the 20 amp I put in. Either that, or put in a 20 amp breaker.
County Inspector checks out my install tomorrow.
Thanks again for all the input!

No problem, glad to help out.

Gooserider

 

[GVA]

It is one of those things where I find alot of people coming from an electrician background have a terrific understanding of how to run wire, but not a great background in how some of the parts work internally. Folks coming from an electronics background tend to be the opposite - I've had to do a fair bit of study to get to the moderate level of electrician skill that I have, and still tend to work with frequent references to my code books. Gooserider

Now that the forum has wound down a bit I reread this post........... Is this part a dig???????????????
If not disregard the following.












I hate pissing contests as to knowledge of electrical/electronics....or anything else
I can run more than wire I used to work on solid state, 12vdc logic, TTL, PLC's and all that crap but I'm just trying to keep it simple here, you may want to keep it the same here too, I'm not gonna go into much in depth here but your description of a GFCI measuring HOT vs Neutral is misleading. Current going out vs current returning through the neutral would be a dead short.
Reread the thread I was Basically saying that pellet stoves like to switch neutrals and GFCI's do not usually like this............and neither do I.........

Have a Pleasant evening!

 

[GVA]

From what Sblanc is saying, he did the same diagnostics that I would have, and checked against a non-GFCI circuit, which rules out any problems with excess current draw from the stove.
Gooserider

And this is what everyone else (like MSG) told him to do first Try another outlet.....

 

[Gooserider]

It is one of those things where I find alot of people coming from an electrician background have a terrific understanding of how to run wire, but not a great background in how some of the parts work internally. Folks coming from an electronics background tend to be the opposite - I've had to do a fair bit of study to get to the moderate level of electrician skill that I have, and still tend to work with frequent references to my code books. Gooserider

Now that the forum has wound down a bit I reread this post........... Is this part a dig???????????????
If not disregard the following.

I hate pissing contests as to knowledge of electrical/electronics....or anything else
I can run more than wire I used to work on solid state, 12vdc logic, TTL, PLC's and all that crap but I'm just trying to keep it simple here, you may want to keep it the same here too, I'm not gonna go into much in depth here but your description of a GFCI measuring HOT vs Neutral is misleading. Current going out vs current returning through the neutral would be a dead short.
Reread the thread I was Basically saying that pellet stoves like to switch neutrals and GFCI's do not usually like this............and neither do I.........

Have a Pleasant evening!

It is not and was not intended as a dig, merely a comment that the two areas appear similar but have different focus areas, just as different specialties do in other fields. My ET school pretty much stopped on the AC side with "It comes out the smiley face on the wall" but spent all sorts of time on the way electrons go through transistors. The electrical books I have all concentrate on proper wiring practice and technique, but do as little electrical theory as they can get away with, including treating stuff like GFCI boxes as "black boxes" that just work, don't worry about what's inside. I had to do a lot of independent study to get to where I am today, which I freely acknowledge is not at the same level as a pro-electrician. (Note that I said I did frequent references to the code books)

That I say there is a difference does NOT mean that I think one is better than the other, just that there is a difference.

As to the way a GFCI works - I was simplifying a great deal, however the basic theory says that the same number of amps of current flows through EVERY point in a simple circuit, from the source point to where the current returns to the source. If you put an ammeter into the Hot side of a circuit and the Neutral side, they would both be the same, as long as there is only one return path. This is the way it should be in a normal circuit, as the only connection between Neutral and Ground should be at the service panel busbar, and NO current should ever flow in the Ground wire.

In the case where there is a connection between Neutral and Ground at the equipment, SOME of the current will return along the Ground wire and some will return along the Neutral. (Or if there is a connection to some other alternative ground path) The GFCI will detect that it is not seeing the same amount of current in the Neutral as it is in the Hot, and will trip. That is why a GFCI breaker has both the Hot and Neutral wires going to it, with a jumper to the Neutral bus bar, so it can measure these two currents. A GFCI outlet does the same thing, but is less obvious about it since the wiring is internal.

BTW, I just grabbed the instruction sheet for a GFCI I put in when I was installing our pool robot, it says the breaker will trip on a ground current of 5 milliamps or greater. It says in the troubleshooting guide that it will trip if there are more than 6 milliamps of leakage current between the live parts of the wiring (which includes the Neutral wire) and Ground. It also says if there is a connection between Neutral and Ground on the load side, either in the wiring (Which will cause the GFCI to trip as soon as the circuit is energized) or in the equipment.

BTW, I don't like switching Neutrals either, I'm surprised that pellet stoves can get away with it, as I didn't think UL allowed such antics....

Gooserider