Burn Ban uugggg!!!!

[WidowMaker]

Just went thru a week of no wood heat due to "burn ban" Had to fall back on heat pump with electric furnance. Man what a shock... while the house was plenty comfortable, actually more comfortable with the heat pump/furnance then with the wood stove..a much more even, uniform heat...

Temps on the floor were with in 2* of temps 1 ft off the ceiling.. in all rooms, with the wood stove there is typically a 15 to 20* difference and a very defiant cold draft accross the floor toward the stove... and more distance areas easily a 5 degree to 10* cooler.

The fly in the oinment was the kwh usage... last months electric usage was 1282 kwh in a 30 day period..Last week usage was 807 kwh for a 7 day period...

Going to do a couple things, ceiling fans, even though I have quite low ceiling I think I can get away with a couple close mount fan and I going to do a "jerry rig" OAK to see if I can't even out the temp stratifications a little and eliminate the cold draft feeling...

I know that a lot of you fu-fu the oak but I think it will work, going to try it anyway and do a temp comparo...

Not looking forward to nexts months electrical bill

 

[Highbeam]

On the OAK, well, WA state law requires that new installs use an OAK so I have one too and will never poopoo the idea. I find it works great. Check my sig links for photos of how I did mine. My inspector would have rejected the install without it.

I have low ceilings. Less than 8 feet and I have three ceiling fans throughout my home. I use the close mount option which eliminates the drop rod and while it is true that you can smack them on accident while putting a coat on or doing some other hand-above-head motion, they aren't a head banging risk. The fans nearly eliminate thermal stratification. I run the stove room fan on low, 6 watts, all the time during the heating season.

Using 807 KwH during one week sure sounds like the heat pump wasn't able to keep up and your electrical resistance strip heat came on. Those strips use lots of juice. When it gets really cold the heat pumps sometimes can't do the job.

Great news! our local tree hugging pollution freaks from the city are threatening another burn ban for the puget sound area starting today. We also had the ban about a week and a half ago. If you, or anyone else, is interested in doing something about these bans then I can send you the contact information for the NW division of the HPBA which is sort of the lobby group for woodburning and seems to be centered in Spokane. Think how the NRA works for gun owners.

 

[WidowMaker]

Good looking OAK install..scarey looking splitter, but I'm sure there has been thousands of cords of firewoodsplit with them...just not for me

Yea, definately on the heat strips, and that wasn't even during the cold snap, the week before have been into the single and minus digits. Last week was in the upper teens to low 30's an a heat pump just can"t handle those temps alone... Seriosly considering pulling out the electric strips section and installing an indoor wood furnance connected to the duct work...

 

[Highbeam]

In my area, the wood furnace or even a pellet stove is still illegal during the burn bans so you would still need to use electric heat allthough if you really removed the electric strips then you can claim that you have no adequate heat source during the ban other than your wood burners.

I know of people that actually disable their electric heat system so that they can burn during the bans. This behavior is not ideal but is being forced onto use by overly ambitious clean air agencies.


If I had ductwork I would be very inclined to put in one of the yukon furnaces. They are supposed to burn a long time.

 

[laynes69]

I don't think there is a furnace made that complies with Washington's standards. The only furnace thats certified is a Phase I. I can see where they want cleaner air, but can one even install a furnace or central heater? I couldn't imagine being told when to burn and not burn wood. But I guess its for cleaner air.

 

[Fsappo]

I just dont understand why stoves that burn almost smokeless are banned...Hmm, maybe I should check into that for a way to market to Europa to the areas that get banned...

 

[Highbeam]

on the wet side (sorry widow) All solid fuel appliances are banned during the now common stage 2 bans. You can't even run your weber charcoal barbecue during a ban. It has nothing to with the cleanliness of your particular stove which is unfortunate since there is no incentive to go with modern cleanburn tech.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

im still having a hard time with this one , granted knowing who i work for im obviously on the side of the wood/pellet burner.

to the OP take highbeam up on his offer to contact HPBA and pass the info on to your friends who are responsible woodburners. (especialy if you are operating a Phase 2 and Washington state certified appliance.

biggest gripe i have (not living there ,which would make me certifiable under these rules) is that we in the industry have to spend money and time not only meeting and exceeding the phase 2 regs (which i support) but also the added stringency of the washington state standards which are tighter than the federal statutes. then after doing this i find out that my customers as well as the other manufacturers customers (you good people) who have selected my or our products still cant use them when you want even when they meet the very standards they require.

its like hitting a ball over the fence in baseball and only being allowed a single because its a night game. makes no sense.

 

[littlesmokey]

Mike:

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding. The red burn/stage II bans are the exception to the rules. They are not arbitrary and are not done for political reasons and are not done that frequently in the NorthWest, compared to my area. We have had a RedBurn day for almost a week, and if the current storm doesn't blow things out it could get serious. The No burn conditions are a result of PM2.5 levels and Ozone levels so high that they are dangerous for peoples health. What drives the bans are the impact on peoples health, not the loss of the pretty view.

The hearth industry and all others that produce particulate pollution have had to really tighten their belts. Take the Trucking industry. Their belts are almost beyond being tight. With new generation motors and ultra low sulfur fuels, they are close. The HVAC standards have tightened, and lots of businesses that have never had to control their emissions are now faced with adding filters, scrubbers and cat-reclaimers. Close to home, ask the guys in your paint room what they think about the crap they can spray compared to a few years ago. Half or less VOC, or water based paints, two or three times the filtering on emissions and extended drying times. My business has almost disappeared because commonly available solvents and chemicals are either no longer available or the equipment to keep things clean are gone. Today a paint room could cost upwards of $30,000. If you don't use one, you are fined and shut down.

The idea is to get the air cleaner, not cleanest, but cleaner. The industry efforts have been needed, but their are way more non-complying burners than those meeting the first EPA standards. Sometimes you sweep up the good with the bad. Many with the new stoves, still don't cleanly burn. Who should be fined or restricted? All? None? The bad guys? Someone else?

I burn because it is the only way I have to heat. Yes, there is natural gas and electric available, but I have chosen to not use them, I heat with wood and pellets. When it's yellow, it's pellets only. when it's red, I use part pellets and unit heaters, both kerosene and electric.

Yesterday we were the dirtiest city in the country, three out of four worst were in Utah. It was bad enough I had difficulty breathing. My friend with asthma used three times the normal amount of inhalers. For those conditions, I can be inconvenienced. I went without heat.

If we need to educate anyone it is the public, that there is a very fine way of to use wood products as a heating source, and a distinction should be made. Once the public is aware, then we can see if the politicians can understand.

 

[begreen]

The state has had lax law enforcement and almost nil for checking on or eliminating non-EPA or even stage 1 EPA stoves. So they smolder all around us. But then in it's great wisdom, the state shuts down everyone with a stage 2 ban and expects the rules to be followed. If the state followed it's own rules, Seattle's new wood chip burning steam plant would need to shut down, but it doesn't. And you wouldn't see a pre-EPA stove selling anywhere in this state, but they are, everyday. Then there is the large maritime presence in Puget Sound. Lots of shipping here, belching bunker fuel, unregulated.

I'm beginning to think that birth control might be a far better start.

 

[myzamboni]

The state has had lax law enforcement and almost nil for checking on or eliminating non-EPA or even stage 1 EPA stoves. So they smolder all around us. But then in it's great wisdom, the state shuts down everyone with a stage 2 ban and expects the rules to be followed. If the state followed it's own rules, Seattle's new wood chip burning steam plant would need to shut down, but it doesn't. And you wouldn't see a pre-EPA stove selling anywhere in this state, but they are, everyday. Then there is the large maritime presence in Puget Sound. Lots of shipping here, belching bunker fuel, unregulated.

I'm beginning to think that birth control might be a far better start.

down here when a 'Spare the Air' day is called for, you can go outside and with 100% certainty smell wood smoke. Very few stoves around here so it is people with fireplaces that don't care because the enforcement doesn't seem to exist.

 

[littlesmokey]

Freaking nice avatar. I'm an old toyota guy too.

+++2 but I need a bigger pic just to make sure it's nice haha

Wow can't imagine a burn ban

A doctor once said, "Take a garbage bag, punch a hole in it, stick it over the tail pipe of your car. Turn the car on, take the open end of the bag and bunch it around your neck with your head inside and breathe deeply a few times..... Ask yourself if you want it to stop?" You who have good air, feel greatful.

 

[53flyer]

Yea, definately on the heat strips, and that wasn't even during the cold snap, the week before have been into the single and minus digits. Last week was in the upper teens to low 30's an a heat pump just can"t handle those temps alone... Seriosly considering pulling out the electric strips section and installing an indoor wood furnance connected to the duct work...

Wouldn't a geothermal heat pump solve that problem and use a tiny fraction of the power (like 10-20% or so of what those heat strips do)?

 

[53flyer]

On the OAK, well, WA state law requires that new installs use an OAK so I have one too and will never poopoo the idea. I find it works great. Check my sig links for photos of how I did mine. My inspector would have rejected the install without it.

Highbeam- You're not talking about "all" stove installs (like inserts) are you? Aren't there some installs where OAK's aren't really doable? By OAK are you only talking about burn air being directly piped to the stove or are you also referring to when they cut a hole in the wall (near ground level) to allow OA to get into the house?

 

[WidowMaker]

Laynes

"I don’t think there is a furnace made that complies with Washington’s standards. The only furnace thats certified is a Phase I. I can see where they want cleaner air, but can one even install a furnace or central heater? I couldn’t imagine being told when to burn and not burn wood. But I guess its for cleaner air.

===

Never thought about availability, just "ASSUMED" they were out there...As far as the clean air aurthority I suppose some of it has to do with clean air,
my feeling is ths is has more to do with Government being able to dictate one more facit of our life and the need to justify the existance of the beaurocity(sp)jmho...
=====

53flyer
Wouldn’t a geothermal heat pump solve that problem and use a tiny fraction of the power (like 10-20% or so of what those heat strips do)?


flyer,
that most likely woud sovle the problem, but at what up front cost, not real familair with technology and really less interested in it, I like my wood heat. But I'm also at the age that my years of wood cutting/burning ability are surely limited so I my have to explore other options..

 

[Highbeam]

53, I don't know about inserts. I wouldn't consider it a stove and ripped out my masonry chimney so that I wouldn't have to have an insert. My stove installation required the OAK, which is a direct connection of outside combustion air to the appliance so that the appliance does not burn heated room air. A hole in the wall near the stove is nothing more than a leak, most homes are already full of leaks which will pour cold air into the home as your stove sucks out the heated air if not equipped with its own sealed air source.

The burn bans are not rare. They have become fiercly common since WA state decided to cut the threshold in half for the 2008-2009 heating year. Their documentation shows that 86% of the wood smoke pollution comes from uncertified stoves and fireplaces yet they quickly ban ALL woodburning appliances when weather might create somewhat hazy air.

Littlesmokey appears to come from an area with real pollution problems. We don't have that here so his comments don't really apply to this political situation.

Turns out that Washington has already outlawed outdoor wood boilers and it is hard to tell but they seem to include indoor wood boilers as well in that class. Wood furnaces might be exempt or might have to meet WA particulate limits. I can't tell.

Geothermal is great but is super expensive upfront and most suited to heating water for a FHW system. Here in WA most folks use hot air for some reason.

I think we all need to see a bigger photo of that avatar widow.

 

[threepin]

on the geo-thermal side of things- a number do offer forced air heating and cooling-in fact in order to qualify for the federal tax credit it has to have an air handling component as the credit is based on energy saver cert. and they have not gotten the fully hydro systems certed yet. It might be a good approach for the op as it offers the lowest ongoing heating cost- each watt produces (or pumps ) about 4 watts of heat, with the washington having low electric rates the resultant heat is quite cheap. Cost is dependent to a large degree on size of system and site. They are expensive but right now a lot of incentives exist- for example in my case my electric utility will reimburse $3000, the state $1500 and the feds 30% of the installed system cost. At least worth looking at. The benefit is clearly greatest for someone planning to stay in their home long term.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Mike:

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding. The red burn/stage II bans are the exception to the rules. They are not arbitrary and are not done for political reasons and are not done that frequently in the NorthWest, compared to my area. We have had a RedBurn day for almost a week, and if the current storm doesn't blow things out it could get serious. The No burn conditions are a result of PM2.5 levels and Ozone levels so high that they are dangerous for peoples health. What drives the bans are the impact on peoples health, not the loss of the pretty view.

The hearth industry and all others that produce particulate pollution have had to really tighten their belts. Take the Trucking industry. Their belts are almost beyond being tight. With new generation motors and ultra low sulfur fuels, they are close. The HVAC standards have tightened, and lots of businesses that have never had to control their emissions are now faced with adding filters, scrubbers and cat-reclaimers. Close to home, ask the guys in your paint room what they think about the crap they can spray compared to a few years ago. Half or less VOC, or water based paints, two or three times the filtering on emissions and extended drying times. My business has almost disappeared because commonly available solvents and chemicals are either no longer available or the equipment to keep things clean are gone. Today a paint room could cost upwards of $30,000. If you don't use one, you are fined and shut down.

The idea is to get the air cleaner, not cleanest, but cleaner. The industry efforts have been needed, but their are way more non-complying burners than those meeting the first EPA standards. Sometimes you sweep up the good with the bad. Many with the new stoves, still don't cleanly burn. Who should be fined or restricted? All? None? The bad guys? Someone else?

I burn because it is the only way I have to heat. Yes, there is natural gas and electric available, but I have chosen to not use them, I heat with wood and pellets. When it's yellow, it's pellets only. when it's red, I use part pellets and unit heaters, both kerosene and electric.

Yesterday we were the dirtiest city in the country, three out of four worst were in Utah. It was bad enough I had difficulty breathing. My friend with asthma used three times the normal amount of inhalers. For those conditions, I can be inconvenienced. I went without heat.

If we need to educate anyone it is the public, that there is a very fine way of to use wood products as a heating source, and a distinction should be made. Once the public is aware, then we can see if the politicians can understand.

so what else gets banned on these days? are there other things which are not allowed as well? or is it just the woodstoves?

 

[begreen]

Last I checked dancing naked around a bonfire to celebrate the solstice and longer days was banned here too.

 

[littlesmokey]

so what else gets banned on these days? are there other things which are not allowed as well? or is it just the woodstoves?

Mike the restrrictions are on "all burners" I do not have the official definition, but I take it to mean wood, coal, waste products, and all other solid fuel sources. For example the local power plant switches to natural gas from coal. Kennecott Copper shuts down certain polluting processes and the furnaces that must be continually run are put in a "holding" setting. All commercial licenses for those who exceed the standards for particulate output are restricted. The oil refineries are not allowed to flash burn or out-gas any products. The solid waste disposal site that burns trash is shut down, etc.

This is not just wood stoves, it is "particulate generating" burning. Even local trucks and autos are encouraged not to drive, bus service (many natural gas powered) are available in extra runs, the light rail is maxed (electric) employers are encouraged to let workers tele-commute.

Enforcement is serious, Air Quality monitors are sent out with snoopers. Tickets are small dollar for homeowners at first, but get serious quickly for those that ignore the ban. If you are permitted as having no other source of heat, you can burn, but if you are dirty, you get a ticket. Car exhaust is monitored by the state, and tickets are stiff if you are below the air quality standards. The tickets are costly first time out.

These are serious issues and affect a lot of people. Some businesses have real difficulty operating in the winter here. A brass foundry about a mile or so from me, does not pour unless the air is pristine in the winter months. They are considered dirty, even though they fire with natural gas. So they are not picking on the "stovies" they are serious about cleaning up our air.

 

[WidowMaker]

53, I don't know about inserts. I wouldn't consider it a stove and ripped out my masonry chimney so that I wouldn't have to have an insert. My stove installation required the OAK, which is a direct connection of outside combustion air to the appliance so that the appliance does not burn heated room air. A hole in the wall near the stove is nothing more than a leak, most homes are already full of leaks which will pour cold air into the home as your stove sucks out the heated air if not equipped with its own sealed air source.

The burn bans are not rare. They have become fiercly common since WA state decided to cut the threshold in half for the 2008-2009 heating year. Their documentation shows that 86% of the wood smoke pollution comes from uncertified stoves and fireplaces yet they quickly ban ALL woodburning appliances when weather might create somewhat hazy air.

Littlesmokey appears to come from an area with real pollution problems. We don't have that here so his comments don't really apply to this political situation.

Turns out that Washington has already outlawed outdoor wood boilers and it is hard to tell but they seem to include indoor wood boilers as well in that class. Wood furnaces might be exempt or might have to meet WA particulate limits. I can't tell.

Geothermal is great but is super expensive upfront and most suited to heating water for a FHW system. Here in WA most folks use hot air for some reason.

I think we all need to see a bigger photo of that avatar widow.

===

Check your pm's

Enjoy

 

[WidowMaker]

Bye Girls,,,,I got the Word...:~)

 

[staplebox]

Wow, I don't know what to say. I had to read through this thread just to understand what a 'burn ban' was. We don't have that around here. If we did I doubt anyone would follow it. Who enforces such a thing where it does exist? Police? Fire marshals? What would you do if it's cold out and all you have it a wood stove, freeze, or break the law?

 

[Highbeam]

Imagine meter maids, hall monitors, or park rangers but no guns and no real police authorization. The actual clean air agency is a gov't funded agency that has the ability to drive around and hand out these 1000$ dollar tickets for violating the bans. The folks that work for a clean air agency are likely tree huggers themselves and certainly have an agenda, they think that clean air is THE most important thing and are given a very powerful enforcement tool to use to enforce their agenda. You can bet there are lots of birkenstocks at that office. A 1000$ fine for a first offence fire in your legally installed and modern clean burning wood stove even if no smoke is coming from your chimney. I just discovered that I am now banned from burning my heritage until maybe Monday.

Great, merry freaking xmas.

 

[littlesmokey]

Highbeam, are you in Pierce County? Looks like the County is pretty stagnant, but King County is clear to burn. How close if you are in Pierce to King County line. The air in Pierce is unhealthy, hope you and your family stay well. Airnow says it should only be through Sunday if the winds tonight don't clear things. Have a good Christmas anyway.

We blew some good air through today, we are back to Green.