He clearly stated the wood isn't dry yet...that's better than most of the wood sellers around here do.
C.L. example of Alaskan wood dealers knowing that no one knows what dry wood is...
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firefighterjake
Minister of Fire
I don't see an issue with the ad . . . in fact he seems to be more honest than many folks by stating up front it is not truly seasoned.
Lumber-Jack
Minister of Fire
krex1010 said:
Actually the guy is not claiming it will burn "hot" or hotter, he just says it will burn longer. In fact in his reply to Rose's email he says, and I quote, "It doesn’t burn as hot as dry and it leaves more creasote, that is the downside."
As for it burning longer or taking longer to burn, or however you want to put it, I've already pointed out this isn't necessarily true because burn time has just as much, or more, to to with your stove and stove settings than it has to do with moisture content of wood. When burning wetter wood people generally open the draft more to get it to burn hotter and faster. Of course if you were to mix some dry wood with some wet wood, of the same size and type, in the stove and burn it then the guy will be right, the wet wood will be the last wood to completely burn up, thus it will burn longer, or take longer to burn, which is the same thing really.
If you are the type who likes to burn long smoldering fires in your old smoke dragon woodstove, then this firewood dealer may be just the ticket for your firewood needs.
Snag
New Member
I agree that the guy is walking a fine line and using semantics to keep his balance. The problem is that it's all "relative" and reminds me of terms like "low fat" or "reduced sodium". The landscaper down the road is selling "seasoned" cords and I know that wood hasn't been cut or split for more than a month. I don't think there is a "government standard" that has to be met before someone can advert firewood as being "seasoned". It wouldn't surprise me if that fella down the road isn't out there sprinkling salt and pepper on it right before he places the ad on CL.
Carolyn
Carolyn
krex1010
Minister of Fire
Carbon_liberator
The ad stated " burns hot and twice as long as fully dried birch" a statement I said has a singular grain of truth but is misleading. The singular grain of truth being that "hot" is a subjective term that could be used to describe any fire. And partially seasoned wood can be made to smolder, smoke, hiss and "burn" for a long time (long being another subjective term). My point was that this guys ad wasn't full of the out and out lies that are common on cragslist and common with many scanners out there. The guy flat out said he is selling partially seasoned and green wood and I really don't have a problem with him trying to talk up his product, what's he supposed to say? Should he say " I have a bunch of unseasoned crap firewood?". The fact is anyone buying from him knows what kind of firewood they are getting, so that makes the ad honest enough for me. And I a big believer that as a consumer it is your responsibility to yourself to have a basic understanding of whatever you are buying and to be able to recognize a fair deal from a ripoff, this guys ad is honest enough that any reasonably knowledgeable woodburner will not be duped into thinking he is getting anything other than unseasoned wood of a certain species.
And just so you know, I wouldn't buy his wood for half the price he is selling it. I don't buy wood and I all my wood is split for at least a year before I burn it, no smoldering, hissing fires in my stoves.
The ad stated " burns hot and twice as long as fully dried birch" a statement I said has a singular grain of truth but is misleading. The singular grain of truth being that "hot" is a subjective term that could be used to describe any fire. And partially seasoned wood can be made to smolder, smoke, hiss and "burn" for a long time (long being another subjective term). My point was that this guys ad wasn't full of the out and out lies that are common on cragslist and common with many scanners out there. The guy flat out said he is selling partially seasoned and green wood and I really don't have a problem with him trying to talk up his product, what's he supposed to say? Should he say " I have a bunch of unseasoned crap firewood?". The fact is anyone buying from him knows what kind of firewood they are getting, so that makes the ad honest enough for me. And I a big believer that as a consumer it is your responsibility to yourself to have a basic understanding of whatever you are buying and to be able to recognize a fair deal from a ripoff, this guys ad is honest enough that any reasonably knowledgeable woodburner will not be duped into thinking he is getting anything other than unseasoned wood of a certain species.
And just so you know, I wouldn't buy his wood for half the price he is selling it. I don't buy wood and I all my wood is split for at least a year before I burn it, no smoldering, hissing fires in my stoves.
ohio woodburner said:hmm.. I guess i'm missing something. The poster seems honest about what he's selling. Not as if he's selling "seasoned" wood thats not. just my $.02....not that it counts
Sir, you beat me to the punch. HOW IS THIS MAN IN THE AD A CON ARTIST??? So its not seasoned..so what? for the right price I would buy green and let it season, saves me the work. Point being the right price. He states what he is selling, he isn't making a claim he can't back up. Sounds like some just want to criticize anyone for any reason..
i clicked the link and I guess the ad was edited..... to an uneducated buyer it may lead him/her to believe that burning unseasoned wood is ok. but the guy is stating that it is not fully seasoned. do the research, use a meter, and season it yourself to be sure.
project240 said:RoseRedHoofbeats said:375 A CORD??For BIRCH? Are you out of your MIND?
I can't even find that price in Alberta for seasoned firewood. It's terrible really. Most of our options are overpriced softwoods... Some guy nearby trying to sell larch at $650/cord...
I've been searching trying to find somewhere nearby where I can buy a load of log length hardwoods...
LOL
That's probably me! I hauled that wood in from Canal Flats in BC(5 Hour drive). Its very expensive because of the hauling.The trees themselves are not worth much money,but since they have to come in from so far they get expensive. I am
actually going to try to get more.The people I have sold half cords to are calling wanting full cords for January delivery.
In Alberta, so many people are selling poplar,pine and spruce for anywhere from $200-$400/cord.That is what is available
locally.The good stuff must all be trucked in,that is what takes the $$$. I need equipment to bring it in;trailer and 1Ton diesel.
I need room to store and process it;acreage.And then I need to deliver it.Every step takes time and money.If this same wood grew in my backyard, I could sell it delivered for $250/cord.
I have seen the stuff that other guys are selling and it ain't pretty.They sell face cords as half cords and the stuff was cut
in the last few months.This why the people who have bought from me are willing to pay for, and want full cords for $650.
The wood really is that good compared to the crap that others are selling.
Project240. I would suggest contacting SRD and getting a Birch cutting permit.The cutting area is around the
Ghost Reservoir area and you can cut a few cord for $5.00.
Rockey said:
Unless I am reading a different ad that some of you, I see a firewood seller that is clearly stating that his product is sold in two moisture conditions: half-dry (partially seasoned), and green (unseasoned).
That's straight forward to me. My choice to burn it now, or finish seasoning it.
Prices, as we all well know, are varied by location, season and "what the market can bear". $200/cord, cut, split and delivered isn't any shocker to me. I lived in Fairbanks for 2 years. White birch is the best hardwood you can find up there. We all know it dries fairly quickly - a year is good.
I think the seller is getting raked over the coals here.
yanksforever
Member
RoseRedHoofbeats said:Oh, this should be fun. I got this reply:
Wow, what an incredibly rude email. This is the very first time someone has complained or called me a con artist. I'll explain it to you since you don't understand. Half seasoned will always burn longer. Birch, Spruce, any kind of wood. It has a higher moisture content. Simple laws of nature. There are many online resources that will confirm this. It doesn't burn as hot as dry and it leaves more creasote, that is the downside. A lot of people buy it to mix in, it is much cheaper than dry birch which I sell for 375 a cord, but that was sold out a long time ago. I burn it in my home, to keep me and my family warm. I'd be glad to give you some free to try for yourself.
375 A CORD??
This was my reply:
Okay, so you're an idiot then. Let me explain this to you-
The wood is not burning any longer- it just taking longer TO burn. The moisture content must be evaporated before it can burn and produce heat. You are wasting BTUs evaporating the MC.
X amount of time to evaporate a 25-30% MC + Y burn time once it starts producing valuable BTUs = Z
A amount of time to evaporate a 15-20% MC + B burn time = C
So you factor in X amount of time to evaporate the higher MC plus Y amount of burn time might give you Z > C, but you are using valuable fuel and wasting time in order to make the same amount of heat in your home. It is not a benefit, it is a deficit.
Most people who are burning wood as their sole source of heat have no other option. Most of those people, additionally, do not know how to sweep their own chimneys. Intentionally selling them a high moisture, creosote producing wood -a soft wood, at that- and telling them that it's SUPERIOR to seasoned wood- it is nothing short of criminal in my opinion. Are you also telling them to make sure that they sweep their chimenys two or three times a year instead of only annually? In most modern EPA stoves and even most moderately efficient older stoves, you need DRY WOOD in order to operate them safely and efficiently.
~Rose
You get an A for your Math Class...BUT...you get an F for your manners. Try to have a debate next time...not a name calling tirade! Be Polite! Start over with an apology and a new start! We get where you are both coming from but taking your anger out on an innocent person isn't fair.
Mcbride
New Member
You folks make me feel lazy.
I get a logging truck load dumped in the yard, and buck it to length.
Toss it in the bobcat bucket and run it to the old unused barn, and dump it on the pile like that.
Once down to just 3 or 4 years left of wood, I get my pal to bring me another load.
I make 3 or more piles in the barn, and when i need wood go to the oldest pile and get what i need, its still round, and just use my splitting maul to split enough for say 3 or 4 days.
When down to just a day or 2 of wood left, go get a bit more and split it.
I prefer to split it once its been piled for say 3 or more years, as its easier to split.
And I am too lazy to split a year or mores wood all at once.
Once dry my 8 pound splitting maul makes it go pretty easy.
Oneday I plan to go high tech and buy a gas powered splitter.
I cut as long as possible so it just fits into my blaze king heater. Sucks when i eye ball cutting wrong, and try to get a piece in thats an inch too long for the heater. lol
I get a logging truck load dumped in the yard, and buck it to length.
Toss it in the bobcat bucket and run it to the old unused barn, and dump it on the pile like that.
Once down to just 3 or 4 years left of wood, I get my pal to bring me another load.
I make 3 or more piles in the barn, and when i need wood go to the oldest pile and get what i need, its still round, and just use my splitting maul to split enough for say 3 or 4 days.
When down to just a day or 2 of wood left, go get a bit more and split it.
I prefer to split it once its been piled for say 3 or more years, as its easier to split.
And I am too lazy to split a year or mores wood all at once.
Once dry my 8 pound splitting maul makes it go pretty easy.
Oneday I plan to go high tech and buy a gas powered splitter.
I cut as long as possible so it just fits into my blaze king heater. Sucks when i eye ball cutting wrong, and try to get a piece in thats an inch too long for the heater. lol
I think everyone has missed my point here.
1. Seller is, yes, honest enough in that they have stated they are selling unseasoned wood
2. However, seller is using rhetoric to manipulate how one thinks unseasoned word performs
3. Selling firewood at sub-par qualities at unjustified high prices drives the market artificially high. There is no wood shortage in Fairbanks. There are a TON of people selling firewood - AND ITS ALL WET.
The only reason the market stays at its current status is the reinforcement of poor wood-burning ideologies by sellers. Bottom-line. The only reason prices should be high is:
1a. A product shortage, thus a natural market price increase
What sellers do in Fairbanks:
1. They cut wood, don't season it, and turn around and sell it. All the while claiming that unseasoned wood at high prices is perfectly acceptable when there is no shortage of wood or sellers in town.
Of course it is up to the buyer to "beware". They are responsible for their own choice. However, one is not absolved from blame by the example: "Oh well, everyone else was stealing so I just figured I would steal too. Its no different than anyone else."
Maybe I'm coming off too strong here as well. I guess I am just tired of everyone's complacency and indifference towards poor market principles. Trust me - this is a common theme in Alaskan economics.
1. Seller is, yes, honest enough in that they have stated they are selling unseasoned wood
2. However, seller is using rhetoric to manipulate how one thinks unseasoned word performs
3. Selling firewood at sub-par qualities at unjustified high prices drives the market artificially high. There is no wood shortage in Fairbanks. There are a TON of people selling firewood - AND ITS ALL WET.
The only reason the market stays at its current status is the reinforcement of poor wood-burning ideologies by sellers. Bottom-line. The only reason prices should be high is:
1a. A product shortage, thus a natural market price increase
What sellers do in Fairbanks:
1. They cut wood, don't season it, and turn around and sell it. All the while claiming that unseasoned wood at high prices is perfectly acceptable when there is no shortage of wood or sellers in town.
Of course it is up to the buyer to "beware". They are responsible for their own choice. However, one is not absolved from blame by the example: "Oh well, everyone else was stealing so I just figured I would steal too. Its no different than anyone else."
Maybe I'm coming off too strong here as well. I guess I am just tired of everyone's complacency and indifference towards poor market principles. Trust me - this is a common theme in Alaskan economics.
krex1010
Minister of Fire
krex1010
Minister of Fire
The price of wood is what it is because people are willing to pay the price! If nobody buys wood at a certain price then the price will come down. It's that simple. If you don't want to pay a certain price for wood then don't buy it. Take the time to find and process your own wood. People who sell wood invest time and effort to process and sell firewood and they have every right to charge whatever price the want. The only responsibilities a wood seller has to his customer is to be honest about what kind f wood it is, how long it has been split and give an honest cord and deliver in an acceptable manner. That's it. If a guy thinks his time and effort is worth $1000 dollars a cord then it is his right to sell it at that price, that doesn't mean anyone has to buy it.
If you have to buy wood then shop around, if you can only find green wood the think ahead and buy it a year ahead. I am sorry if I am offending anyone here but this is the reality of the wood business. If you as a customer are waiting until now to buy wood for this season then the fact that you can't get seasoned wood is your fault, not the fault of people selling wood. Heating with wood requires planning ahead, if a person can't plan ahead and wants to get quality heating fuel by making a phone call then heat with pellets or gas or oil. No offense intended here, just trying to be straight forward. Hope you good folks from Alaska arent ticked at me! Lol
If you have to buy wood then shop around, if you can only find green wood the think ahead and buy it a year ahead. I am sorry if I am offending anyone here but this is the reality of the wood business. If you as a customer are waiting until now to buy wood for this season then the fact that you can't get seasoned wood is your fault, not the fault of people selling wood. Heating with wood requires planning ahead, if a person can't plan ahead and wants to get quality heating fuel by making a phone call then heat with pellets or gas or oil. No offense intended here, just trying to be straight forward. Hope you good folks from Alaska arent ticked at me! Lol
Mcbride
New Member
Many things are over priced, not just wood.
Go buy a new truck, or a video game, a bag of popcorn at the movie theater.
if you don't like it protest by not opening your wallet and buying it.
Go buy a new truck, or a video game, a bag of popcorn at the movie theater.
if you don't like it protest by not opening your wallet and buying it.
okotoks guy said:project240 said:RoseRedHoofbeats said:375 A CORD??
I can't even find that price in Alberta for seasoned firewood. It's terrible really. Most of our options are overpriced softwoods... Some guy nearby trying to sell larch at $650/cord...
I've been searching trying to find somewhere nearby where I can buy a load of log length hardwoods...
LOL
I understand everyone has their costs... I love burning wood and have talked with a tree service and plan to pick up as much as I can from them next spring/summer. But for the time being, I'd like to be able to buy some properly seasoned wood without having to pay a ridiculous price for it. I can just sit back and turn on the furnace and pay much less than if I had to pay even $400/cord.
I'm extremely jealous about the people down south who I read about buying log lengths of oak delivered for $1500 for 16-18 cords. Just talked with a guy in Southern Alberta tonight about a 16 cord load of douglas fir for only about $4500 delivered, lol. Really...? Almost $300/cord for log length fir...?
okotoks guy said:project240 said:RoseRedHoofbeats said:375 A CORD??
I can't even find that price in Alberta for seasoned firewood. It's terrible really. Most of our options are overpriced softwoods... Some guy nearby trying to sell larch at $650/cord...
I've been searching trying to find somewhere nearby where I can buy a load of log length hardwoods...
LOL
I understand everyone has their costs... I love burning wood and have talked with a tree service and plan to pick up as much as I can from them next spring/summer. But for the time being, I'd like to be able to buy some properly seasoned wood without having to pay a ridiculous price for it. I can just sit back and turn on the furnace and pay much less than if I had to pay even $400/cord.
I'm extremely jealous about the people down south who I read about buying log lengths of oak delivered for $1500 for 16-18 cords. Just talked with a guy in Southern Alberta tonight about a 16 cord load of douglas fir for only about $4500 delivered, lol. Really...? Almost $300/cord for log length fir...?
JustWood
Minister of Fire
I guess the advice I would give to those who hate the cost of delivered,seasoned,split firewood
is this: Figure out what you think a fair price is (what you would be happy to pay)and start a
firewood business and sell at that price. You'll make a killing putting all the overpriced guys out of business!
is this: Figure out what you think a fair price is (what you would be happy to pay)and start a
firewood business and sell at that price. You'll make a killing putting all the overpriced guys out of business!
okotoks guy said:
I'm sure there are many many people who hate the cost of firewood in our area, but I bet 99% of them would never start their own business because of it.
krex1010
Minister of Fire
Here is another thing that most people don't understand. I live in a Philadelphia suburb. If I want to buy wood I can get a cord for around $200 for mixed hardwoods. But that wood cost more to get to my house than you folks are paying up in Alaska, but as a a a firewood customer I am not paying the majority of that cost. Here is how it works. Let's say the wood came from a medium sized oak in someones back yard. That person probably paid $2000-3000 minimum to have that tree cut down. Now that tree service takes that tree and makes firewood and let's say they get 5 cords out of it. So with selling 5 cords at $200 and charging $3000 dollars to cutthe tree that guy made $4000 on one medium oak tree. So by my math that's $800 a cord , and that tree likely never left a 10 mile radius when being cut down, hauled and split, and hauled to whoever buys the firewood. I am sure up north the industry is different, people don't make as much for tree removal, longer distances to haul wood, and alot of outfits are not getting paid until they sell the wood they cut (as opposed to being paid to just cut the tree around here) so in that case the person buying the wood will pay the lions share of the cost, where I live the person wanting the tree removed pays the lions share.
Yes.
I don't know if some buisness owners are stupid. Before the internet I guess maybe it was easy to get away with it, but now adays, no way.
I needed tires for my truck. The local tire places I went to wanted $1500-1600 for the tires and mount/balance.
I ordered them from the internet and shipped up here on the barge. Cost me $900 total. Then $60 for a regular auto shop to mount and balance.
They say they have to cover shipping "It's Alaska... its more expensive"... yeah... B/S!
I don't know if some buisness owners are stupid. Before the internet I guess maybe it was easy to get away with it, but now adays, no way.
I needed tires for my truck. The local tire places I went to wanted $1500-1600 for the tires and mount/balance.
I ordered them from the internet and shipped up here on the barge. Cost me $900 total. Then $60 for a regular auto shop to mount and balance.
They say they have to cover shipping "It's Alaska... its more expensive"... yeah... B/S!
AKSHADOW said:
NATE379 said:
And this is exactly what I am pointing out. Many things, including firewood, seem to fall under this false catch-all "its more expensive in Alaska."
As for the industry here, wood dealers arent going around cutting people's backyard trees for firewood sales. They are cutting from privately owned lots or state land with cutting permits or state land that is open to the public.
The attitudes that reinforce the belief that anyone has the right to charge anything they want for a particular product completely ignores logistical market growth and decline values. But I guess economics, and the study of, don't really matter to anyone. Great. I hope that bites everyone the next time they realized they've been gouged at the gas pump - its not like oil companies are top heavy right?
the person who sits on his butt by the fire and tries to dictate what the price of firewood in their area should be is at best,slightly foolish.the price an item is ultimately sold for is determined buy wha price the market will bear,business basics 101....500 bucks a cord,go for it,1250 for an ounce of gold,ok,4.00 a gallon of gas (outrageous) but we pay it anyway
krex1010
Minister of Fire
If a wood dealer is cutting on private land, then thy are paying the landowner for the lumber, if they are cutting on public land then I'm sure that's a more profitable way to go, but they still have to pay for equipment, wages, transportation costs. Not to mention that their overhead is more if everything really is more expensive in alaska. I'm not say I would be happy to pay what you pay for wood, I wouldn't do it. But if Joe schmoe can sell logs for $4500 dollars a load then what right does anyone else have to tell him to sell it cheaper? If he is willing to negotiate then do that if not then walk away. Profit is not a dirty word and every business has to be profitable to survive. And it's not like anyone has a gun to your head forcing you to heat with bought firewood. If you want to discuss economics let's do it, but what's the first thing they teach in economics? Supply and demand. Supply and demand set a markets price. In different areas different markets are outrageously priced compared to the areas. Firewood is reasonable where I live, but if I want to move and buy a house in my area I will have to shell out around $400,000 to buy a newer 4 bedroom house on like half an acre, sounds ridiculous to me, so i am not moving. But I am not going to tell the guy selling the house that he should be ashamed of himself for getting the most money he can for his product. You compared the wood industry to the oil industry which I think isn't apples to apples ( international business with thousands of employees compared to a small business) but think about what happened when the government tried to ignore the market and tried to control gas prices, long lines for gas, could only buy gas on certain days, gas stations with no gas. How many people will still sell firewood if they are told to cut their price in half? Try getting good wood then.
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