I installed a greenwood 100 in October. It does not heat my house. I installed it in my basement with a six inch chimney. I also installed a draft reducer because I had to much draft. Once I got the draft set to .05 WC it still would not heat. I was told it was a fouled heat exchanger, because of the excess draft. So I shut down the boiler, and pulled the back off to clean the heat exchanger. I found that it was plugged sold, I thought great this has got to be my problem. Wrong, after putting it back together and refiring, still not enough heat for my house. It will heat my domestic hot water great, but seems like a very expensive hot water heater. My house is a 3100 sq. ft. ranch, with baseboard water heat, I have to run my fuel oil boiler at the same time to keep the house warm. I have to put wood in it every two to three hours, make for a long night setting the alarm for every two hours. I was told By the salesman that the Greenwood 100 would take care of my heating needs, no problem. If anyone has any ideas I would really appreciate the help.
can anyone help with a greenwood 100
- Thread starter gfyy
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LeonMSPT
Minister of Fire
Don't have one, looked hard at them and ran out of money. So I bought conventional wood/coal boiler. What I know of them, something isn't right... the thing should be easily taking care of business and loading wood every 2-3 hours indicates you're not getting to high fire for some reason, maybe?
Once it's hot, should be no problems heating your house... unless.
What is the output of your oil burner and how cold has it been?
Once it's hot, should be no problems heating your house... unless.
What is the output of your oil burner and how cold has it been?
The greenwood 100 is rated at 100000 BTU, my oil boiler is 120000. It has been between 5 and 20 degrees here lately. I still think for having $11000 invested it should heat the house.
mole
Member
gfyy said:
gfyy.
I have a Seton (similar design) and have had some creosote issues myself. The info doesn't add up right. If the Greenwood were simply undersized, you would be running the piss out of it and burning lots of wood, (like you are) but it would burn real clean..It wouldn't foul with creosote. Here's some starter questions:
1) Wood - what kind, how long was it seasoned? moisture content? Wet wood will give a cool fire and lots of creosote.
2) How is it cycling? Under full fire, with zones calling for heat, How long is the typical "on" cycle and "off"(draft door closed) cycle? For instance, 12 mintuies on and 3 minutes off.
3) What is the typical peak exhaust temperature before the boiler water reaches 180 and cycles off?
4) When you took the back off and cleaned the tubes (fun, huh?), how clean did you get them? Did you get them right down to bare steel, all around? Did you do the overhead section too? It's amazing how much a little creosote can foul your heat exchange.
5) What does your refractory look like? Is it brownish, tan, or white?
Be aware that excessive amounts of creosote can present a real hazard. While you're trying to work out the problems, you should be dilligent about keeping excessive amounts of cresoote from building up. There are some older (scary)strings on the subject. If you search "Seton" and "creosote" you'll probably find them.
Regards,
Mole
I also run a very similar boiler. Trust me these things are heating machines. Answer some of the questions posted above. Maybe we can help...
As for the kind of wood it has been oak,cherry, maple, ash, hickory, just about everything. Most of it has been seasoned about 12-18 months. Some of it has been a little wet. About the cycling, if I leave my oil boiler off the damper hardly ever closes. If I run my oil boiler at the same time the damper is about 50/50. Open 20min closed 20min. I cleaned all of the pipes in the heat exchanger to the bare metal. The overhead section was a little tough, but I seemed to have gotten most of it. The refactory is a white color. I hope these are all good answers.
gfyy said:
Hi gffy,
I've never heard of too much draft causing a cool fire especially where you would get that much creosote in your heat exchanger. How cool is your return water temperature? Are you running storage as well?
That much creosote in your heat exchanger and there is a possible problem with creosote in the chimney (potential for chimney fire) as well and to be on the safe side it should be inspected. Creosote in the heat exchanger is a sign of a cool fire and wet wood is a standard culprit as drying the wood consumes a lot of energy and once it has plugged or partially plugged your pipes running dry wood will not clear up the problem. Obviously cleaning was the right thing but you need to avoid the wet wood to see if that is the problem. Also too much restriction in the draft will not allow the fire to burn like it should where it should and creosote will be a result and so will a cool fire. Creosote is un-burned fuel how much chimney do you have that your chimney/draft has to be reduced? How long were your burn times before you reduced the draft?
White ash is a good sign as it means you are getting a cleaner burn but if there is a tannish or blue/gray hue to it there is an indication that a little tuning of your air fuel mix would be helpful.
I am running an EKO40 in a 1700 sf house w/sidearm dhw and my boiler is rated for up to 4k sf. The burn times you are getting sound more like the wood add on furnace I used to use and you should be pulling 6 hour burns. Over all it sounds like wet wood and draft restriction are the source of your problems.
mole
Member
gfyy said:
gfyy,
I don't see any smoking gun here. My thoughts are that it's most likely either that your wood is too wet or you're losing the heat up the stack or both.
If your wood is wet, (30% moisture or more) you won't get much heat from it. Those big 8"-16" rounds that the Greenwood loves burning take two full seasons to dry down to about 20% moisture. I learned this the hard way. I burned lots of big rounds that seemed to "go away" but not give off much heat. When I bought a moisture meter (cheap $24 two pin model on e-bay), I discovered that the rounds were running about 25-30% moisture after a year in my wood shed. Now I keep a two year supply and let the wood dry under a tarp the first year before moving it into the wood shed. I'd suggest getting a moisture meter so you can confirm that this is a problem or move on. You won't regret it because it rules out a variable. Drying your wood in the basement (close to the boiler but not too close) for three weeks will help if the problem is moisture. the radiant heat from the boiler makes quite a difference on moisture content.
If you still have a lot of creosote on the tubes, or if your draft is too strong, you are likely losing a lot of heat up the stack. If you don't have one yet, you should get a flue thermometer. Not the external magnetic type, but one with a probe that you can stick into the pipe, but still remove every couple of days to clean off, so you get accurate temperatures. (The thermometer will read 50 degrees low with a little coating of ash or creosote). If your stack temperature is running over 500F, you likely have too much draft or dirty tubes.
If the tubes are OK and you're running hot, then you should recheck the draft. My Seton runs .07-.10" under full fire. I have a 6" flue pipe into a masonry chimney. With clean tubes, dry wood(20%moisture or less), and running wide open, I will see temps of about 550 max.
Another possibility would be that your Greenwood is in fact undersized. You can probably estimate that from looking at what % of the time the 120,000BTU/hr oil boiler runs on cold days. If your oil boiler is running 75% of the time or more, then that could be the problem. (that's my uneducated opinion- I'm not an engineer or a heating professional)
I'm not sure what else to tell you. Maybe others here will have other ideas.
Mole
Sorry to heare of your troubles. Frustrating when its cold out, cold in, the oil burner is running, AND yer out 12 big ones! Hang in there though!
Now . . . How do you have the two boilers plumbed?
What is the temp coming out of the GW?
You don't mention storage, is it safe to assume there is none?
Talk to me about this loading every 3 hours . . . Is it burned down to a coal bed completely below the air inlet holes when you reload?
When you reload, describe your technique . . .what kind, size, how aranged, quantity.
I'm not saying that your problems are automatically the same as mine, but I will tell you that my first year with the GW was very disappointing. My two biggest problems were:
1)Wood quality
2)Incessant opening the door, wondering what was wrong, adding more wood . . . .
My fix was . . . Let it burn down to a coal bed, load it with QUALITY wood (I don't find that it has to be perfectly dry, but I do think dry stuff on the first layer on the coal bed is a good idea. But it MUST be SOLID hard wood - for me that means Oak - especially if its 20* or below outside) then walk away and resist the temptation to open the door.
Step one should be to get the GW up to operating temp. When its 10* or less I run my aquastat at 190* . . . for the last cold snap (minus numbers) I ran at 195*. Pretty important to back that off as it warms up though.
Hang in there Dude!
Jimbo
Now . . . How do you have the two boilers plumbed?
What is the temp coming out of the GW?
You don't mention storage, is it safe to assume there is none?
Talk to me about this loading every 3 hours . . . Is it burned down to a coal bed completely below the air inlet holes when you reload?
When you reload, describe your technique . . .what kind, size, how aranged, quantity.
I'm not saying that your problems are automatically the same as mine, but I will tell you that my first year with the GW was very disappointing. My two biggest problems were:
1)Wood quality
2)Incessant opening the door, wondering what was wrong, adding more wood . . . .
My fix was . . . Let it burn down to a coal bed, load it with QUALITY wood (I don't find that it has to be perfectly dry, but I do think dry stuff on the first layer on the coal bed is a good idea. But it MUST be SOLID hard wood - for me that means Oak - especially if its 20* or below outside) then walk away and resist the temptation to open the door.
Step one should be to get the GW up to operating temp. When its 10* or less I run my aquastat at 190* . . . for the last cold snap (minus numbers) I ran at 195*. Pretty important to back that off as it warms up though.
Hang in there Dude!
Jimbo
91220da
Member
Gfyy,
Something is definently up? You did not mention plumbing pipe sizeing, heat exchanger etc. (not the heat exchange tubes inside). You should have a minimum of 1" inside diameter pipeing from the greenwood to your oil boiler. If you restricted the flow anywhere ie. 3/4" or 1/2" you are loosing volume of transfer medium (water or water glycol mix) Flat plate heat exchangers can also restrict the fluid flow. I agree with Iseedeadbtus. Wood quality has a major effect, and your reduction below 6" on the stack seems funny. Even though your draft is measuring correctly it may not be breathing enough with a full load of wood. My greenwood huffs and puffs like a dragon sometimes trying to get more air if I overload with realy dry wood. Once you get it worked out and working properly you won't be dissapointed. My set up is the best thing I have ever done for the house.
Rich
Something is definently up? You did not mention plumbing pipe sizeing, heat exchanger etc. (not the heat exchange tubes inside). You should have a minimum of 1" inside diameter pipeing from the greenwood to your oil boiler. If you restricted the flow anywhere ie. 3/4" or 1/2" you are loosing volume of transfer medium (water or water glycol mix) Flat plate heat exchangers can also restrict the fluid flow. I agree with Iseedeadbtus. Wood quality has a major effect, and your reduction below 6" on the stack seems funny. Even though your draft is measuring correctly it may not be breathing enough with a full load of wood. My greenwood huffs and puffs like a dragon sometimes trying to get more air if I overload with realy dry wood. Once you get it worked out and working properly you won't be dissapointed. My set up is the best thing I have ever done for the house.
Rich
How far from the Oil boiler is your Greenwood? What size tubing are you running between them? Is the tubing insulated? What R value is the insulation? What is the capacity of the transfer pump you use to circulate to the Oil Boiler? Do you use a heat exchanger? What temperature is your aquastat set at? Do you have cold return protection?
When we had -30 degree weather for a number of days I found I had to adjust my aquastat from 165-180 to run 180-190. Otherwise my house was only getting up to 66 or 67 degrees. After I adjusted the aquastat I got my house up to 72.
When we had -30 degree weather for a number of days I found I had to adjust my aquastat from 165-180 to run 180-190. Otherwise my house was only getting up to 66 or 67 degrees. After I adjusted the aquastat I got my house up to 72.
I'm curious about your draft reducer. Can you explain that a bit more? I had too much draft too with about 16 feet of chimney (8 feet of it is black stovepipe). I had to install a barometric damper. But that is barely adequate. As is my chimney just sticks up through the roof about 1 foot above my metal roof and is getting my nice green roof dirty. I tried a traditional damper as well, but found that it had strange effects on the Greenwood operation. The barometric damper works fine so far. I just would like to add 4 feet to my chimney but the barometric damper can't reduce the draft adequately with four more feet. So I think maybe reducing some of the black stovepipe from 6 inches to a smaller diameter might be the answer. I'd leave the Excel chimney at 6". So I'm just curious about your experience in reducing your draft.
I have about 21' of double walled dura vent stove pipe. I also installed a barometric draft reducer, and that took care of my draft problem. I am told that if your exhaust temp is about 350 degrees the draft is fine. When I first installed the greenwood I never thought that I could have to much draft. I went through four cord of wood in two months, that in turn caused my heat exchanger to foul. The reason was that the creosote was not burning completely. As it exited the furnace it stuck to the heat exchanger. I was also told to check around the door, sometimes they do not seal, and that also contributes to a high draft. Also around all of the seams, they may also not be air tight. I got lucky all of mine were very tight. So the high draft caused most of my problem. But I have another reason that I cannot get heat. I had one of the greenwood installers come out, and he found a problem with my plumbing, where I tied into my house boiler. It is a loop that I thought woulfd help return some water back to the greenwood, when jn fact it was cooling off the water going to my zones in the house. Which made my greenwood run wide open all the time. So I had more than one problem and it was a hair puller. I am going to replumb this weekend, I will let you know how it turns out.
JMann
Member
This may be a silly question, I apologize if it is. Is it possible that the thermostat in the house is not in sync with the boiler? From the way you are describing how little heat you get, is it possible that you're only getting heat from what radiates off of the Greenwood?
No, that is not possible. The part of the basement it is located in is going to be an addition that is not finished. It is not under any part of my current living space.
2.beans
Minister of Fire
yes I did, my return water temp was to cold. I had a temp gauge installed but it was running 15 degrees to cold, so in turn I was cold shocking the boiler, and fouling the heat exchanger. The factory also has an update that I installed on the back of my Greenwood. It is a loop with a thermostat (like in your car) this will preheat the cold water returning to the boiler, preventing it from cold shock. It was a little pricey but I believe it took care of the problem. I also had another problem with one of my heat zones in the house. I did not have enough baseboard heaters, so that zone would always be calling for heat. So I fixed it by installing pex radiant floor heat. I will be connecting it next weekend.
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