Can coal be used cleanly?

[keyman512us]

I was curious how many woodburners out there...also burn coal?
(Combination users please chime in...everybody please chime in)

I was also curious as to "How much wood users...know about coal?"
Can we get a "civil conversation going" on this topic?

 

[webbie]

Coal can be burned cleanly - in fact, hard coal burns very clean as is - many other coals can burn clean when processed in various ways.

The bigger question, which I think has been discussed here before, is the entire Fuel Cycle, meaning from mining to processing and burning - can it all be clean?

The answer is "somewhat" in my opinion. Most of the traditional sources in the east are either almost tapped out or require removing the tops of mountains and other large scale ecosystem disasters.

The next big thing in coal is western coal...some of which is fairly clean to mine and to burn. However, these new clean coal plants that the industry is pushing are at least a generation away. So, while it is possible to use coal cleanly, it will largely not be done in our lifetimes.

 

[berlin]

anthricite coal is the cleanest solid fuel there is.
bituminous coal, burned in a proper appliance, especially an underfed stoker can burn fairly clean, especially low-volitile bituminous. even high vol bituminous burns cleaner (pah's) than epa cert. woodstove with the notable exception of particulates (soot). btw, i'm talking about eastern us bituminous generally here, studies that say otherwise done on chinese coals that are different in many ways from us coals, especially in their high levels of heavy metals due to mineralization, bring nothing to the discussion, they do not apply to the US.

there will be no noticable switch to bituminous for heating in the future regardless of other fuel prices, it takes discipline and extra time and knowledge to heat with it in an easy manner. (other than some huge international disaster etc., etc.)

i believe there will be a gradual move towards anthricite for home heating in the northeast however. although, i don't anticipate it to be more than a few percentage points at most within the forseable future, and i believe it to be primarily supplemental (ie, coal stove vs. buying a new central coal stoker furnace)

 

[restorer]

anthricite coal is the cleanest solid fuel there is.
bituminous coal, burned in a proper appliance, especially an underfed stoker can burn fairly clean, especially low-volitile bituminous. even high vol bituminous burns cleaner (pah's) than epa cert. woodstove with the notable exception of particulates (soot). btw, i'm talking about eastern us bituminous generally here, studies that say otherwise done on chinese coals that are different in many ways from us coals, especially in their high levels of heavy metals due to mineralization, bring nothing to the discussion, they do not apply to the US.

there will be no noticable switch to bituminous for heating in the future regardless of other fuel prices, it takes discipline and extra time and knowledge to heat with it in an easy manner. (other than some huge international disaster etc., etc.)

i believe there will be a gradual move towards anthricite for home heating in the northeast however. although, i don't anticipate it to be more than a few percentage points at most within the forseable future, and i believe it to be primarily supplemental (ie, coal stove vs. buying a new central coal stoker furnace)

The next generation is here, Utah is opening a new mine with delivery at 800 ton per day initial, low sulfur bituminous. Trucked to the west at a truck load every 4 minutes. Where is it going? Don't know yet, but I'm tracking it down. My worst fear is it will eventually get rail shipped to Long Beach, CA and shipped... Yahhh to China.

Just started looking at my local natural resource, not too pleased about what I'm learning.

 

[Corey]

The next generation is here, Utah is opening a new mine with delivery at 800 ton per day initial, low sulfur bituminous. Trucked to the west at a truck load every 4 minutes. Where is it going? Don't know yet, but I'm tracking it down. My worst fear is it will eventually get rail shipped to Long Beach, CA and shipped... Yahhh to China.

Just started looking at my local natural resource, not too pleased about what I'm learning.

Just curious - is this statistic correct? 800 tons a day seems like an incredibly small amount for a functioning mine. I've been to several mines in the Powder River basin doing 4000-5000 tons an hour (and struggling to keep up!) IIRC, one of the 'normal' mine dump trucks hold about 360 tons in one load.

Corey

 

[berlin]

that's easy to do when you have 300+ feet thick of coal that go for hundreds of square miles with gravely overburden that is fairly thin. many mines, especially shipping by truck have much, much lower output. in pa, where i get my home heating coal now, kittaning bed, it's 3' of good stuff w/ as much as 100' of overburden, mostly rock and limestone that must be blasted; they ship much less than 800 tons/day of kittaning coal; production around 100 tons/day, but they have a specialty market where they charge $50/ton for cleaned, screened coal, and there is no better bituminous for residential heating or firing locomotives which is another specialty of theirs; and they make a decent profit from it (as a % of production obviously).

 

[restorer]

The next generation is here, Utah is opening a new mine with delivery at 800 ton per day initial, low sulfur bituminous. Trucked to the west at a truck load every 4 minutes. Where is it going? Don't know yet, but I'm tracking it down. My worst fear is it will eventually get rail shipped to Long Beach, CA and shipped... Yahhh to China.

Just started looking at my local natural resource, not too pleased about what I'm learning.

Seems a repeated error from the announcement. That should be 8,000 ton. They are talking a truck load every four minutes and they are just gearing up.


Just curious - is this statistic correct? 800 tons a day seems like an incredibly small amount for a functioning mine. I've been to several mines in the Powder River basin doing 4000-5000 tons an hour (and struggling to keep up!) IIRC, one of the 'normal' mine dump trucks hold about 360 tons in one load.

Corey

 

[megan]

I don't have figures on how cleanly i burn coal in my coal stove. When it's cranking along, we don't notice tons of smoke pouring out of the chimney, and no one's complained of noxious fumes. Then again, i live right next to the Mushroom Capital of the US, so odor here is relative.

We get our coal near Lancaster, PA, and the place we get it from has been in the coal business since the 19th century. Someone there told us that it's getting harder to get coal here because they're shipping it all to China. Seems the Chinese are more willing to pay more money for coal than the US. He related this info to us when we said that the place we used to get it from no longer has it, and another place that only had it once in awhile said they were unable to get it altogether.

The place near Lancaster is still able to obtain it because they still have a lot of folks who use coal heat and nothing else.

We've burned only anthracite so can't comment on the difference between burning hard and soft coal.

megan

 

[Hogwildz]

My entire family up in the NE PA region burn coal. My parents got rid of their coal furnace & went to propane hot water a few years ago, and are now regretting that in some ways. They do like the lack of dust though. It was about $90.00 per ton last they bought it. Think its closer to $120.00 now. The forced hot air coal furnaces some family members use does a great job of heating. But only when its cold out. In the 40's or higher, its too much heat. The other downside is the dust from the coal. My parents and the other family members that use it in forced hot air systems get coal dust all over their houses. At my parents, you can still see the coal dust that settled around the attic access and out of reach corner, areas etc.
Now the other family members that use it in hot water heat systems, don't get the dust as bad, its mostly limited to the basement where the furnace and coal bin are located. As far as production, we all know how many miners have been lost in recent years. Along with the miners that have gotten numerous different lung diseases from working & breathing down in the mines. The mining companies do not take care of their workers, or use the necessary safety measures or precautions. That is fact that has shown many times in recent years and throughout coal mine history.
I was going to go with coal, but I have forced hot air and am not dealing with the coal dust all over my house. I was also looking into an OWB when I first moved in.
Glad I opted for what I have now. I do not claim to know all about coal. I just know its not right for me. And while it may burn clean, by seeing the dust throughout my parents home over the years of their coal burning, I can only imagine what goes up & out the chimney. Not knocking anyone using it, just ain't for me.

 

[Corey]

[snip]
We get our coal near Lancaster, PA, and the place we get it from has been in the coal business since the 19th century. Someone there told us that it's getting harder to get coal here because they're shipping it all to China. Seems the Chinese are more willing to pay more money for coal than the US. [snip]

Again, this is interesting information to me. I wasn't aware that any US coal was headed to China. The last I knew China actually had a decent coal export racket going. Far more likely the coal would be headed to Canada. If you want the complete breakdown:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/quarterly/html/t10p01p1.html

Corey

 

[wg_bent]

Sure must be expensive to ship Coal to China. That stuff's heavy! And with the volume they consume, the train of ships over there must be endless.

I thought China had large reserves of coal. no?

 

[berlin]

china has lots of coal, but it's inefficient mines cannot keep up with demand. china imports lots of coal from australia and the usa, much of it is specialty, such as met coal, coke etc because of poor coal quality domestically.

 

[colsmith]

Don't know about shipping coal to China, but SO MUCH is shipped from China to the U.S. vs. going back to China (huge trade deficit, remember?) that I imagine there are lots of ships with almost nothing to carry back to China after transporting goods over here. They could certainly take some coal back in those ships. I know there is a pile up of shipping containers on our end creating a bit of a problem.

 

[Corey]

Once again, I'm struggling with the stats here. China does import US Coal, China doesn't import US coal, China Exports coal, China cant keep up with their coal demand...all these claims have been made, but I'm a bit baffled.

Going back to the eia site and looking at US coal imports:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/quarterly/html/t18p01p1.html

The main page is :

http://www.eia.doe.gov/fuelcoal.html

In case anyone is interested in looking at all the data.

Based on this it looks like the US imported about 20,000 tons of coal a from China in all of 2005. (last complete year stats are available) I guess that sounds like a lot, but, really, equivalent to less than 4 hours production at one single well equipped US mine. Even a more incredibly small amount considering our 1.13 billion ton production in '05.

We may have a big trade deficit with China, but I just don't think it is in coal. The US is really the "OPEC" of the coal world.

Corey

 

[megan]

Corey,
I'm not an expert by any means and am not going to argue with the data you found. I was passing along what the guy at the coal place told me. My personal experience is that two of the places that are closer to my home were unable to get coal. The third place where i was able to get it was the place that said it's because the Chinese are willing to pay more for it.

As for the coal vs wood issue, i thought a lot about it and wanted a stove that would do both since i didn't think we'd have enough discipline to have enough dry wood. I can't get wood for free here, or at least not often enough that would sway me to burn just wood and not coal. If i had some acreage and could farm my own trees, then completely different story.

I do think it ironic that i live in one of the "coal states" and there are places here that can't get it. Sorta like the cobbler's kids who had no shoes if you ask me.

megan

Once again, I'm struggling with the stats here. China does import US Coal, China doesn't import US coal, China Exports coal, China cant keep up with their coal demand...all these claims have been made, but I'm a bit baffled.

Going back to the eia site and looking at US coal imports:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/quarterly/html/t18p01p1.html

The main page is :

http://www.eia.doe.gov/fuelcoal.html

In case anyone is interested in looking at all the data.

Based on this it looks like the US imported about 20,000 tons of coal a from China in all of 2005. (last complete year stats are available) I guess that sounds like a lot, but, really, equivalent to less than 4 hours production at one single well equipped US mine. Even a more incredibly small amount considering our 1.13 billion ton production in '05.

We may have a big trade deficit with China, but I just don't think it is in coal. The US is really the "OPEC" of the coal world.

Corey

 

[Corey]

No problem, megan - I understand your point.

I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong, just wanted to post the official gov't account of US coal import and export. Which basically says that US - China coal trade is non-existent. Your local guy may have cornered some niche market on China. Just be careful if he is trying to use a "Hard to get...all going to China...gotta charge you more" scare tactic to gouge you or rope you into some higher price.

Corey

 

[megan]

Yep, i understand your point VERY well, Corey. No, we still got our coal at last year's price. We get it in 50 lb bags because we don't have a coal cellar. If they delivered it for us, it'd be loose (and we'd get the pleasure of moving it into the cellar ourselves) and cost the same as if we went and got bags ourselves, since they have a delivery charge. The bagged stuff we got was leftover from last year, so it was $6/bag, just like last year. He did say that when that pile ran out, the price would be $8/bag.

If we were willing to drive 2 hours north, we could most likely get it for a bit less; the guy we usually got our coal from before charged us the same price, and the coal wasn't as good.

I think we're using the same place as the woman who sold us her much wenlock stove. When we bought the stove from her, she told us we were welcome to take the coal she had if we were willing to carry it out of her house. So, we removed 1.5 tons from her house using 5-gallon buckets. Took us two evenings after work. We didn't think to ask her where she had gotten the coal, but we did notice that the stuff we got after that wasn't as good. Until we got it from the place we do now.

Our recent search for a new coal stove rendered something interesting. One place we stopped had a wonderful variety of different types of shop stoves, most wood, but some coal, too. When we looked at the Vermont Castings Vigilant he had on display as well as two pot-bellied stoves, he asked us where we got our coal. I told him, and he said that many people have called to ask where to get coal, and he didn't know anywhere locally that sold it anymore. He was thrilled that we not only gave him the name but instructions so he could let others know.

The place that originally sold the much wenlock no longer sells coal stoves. When i called to ask if they still did and explained about the much wenlock, the guy said nope, we don't do coal stoves anymore, and we don't have replacement parts. I wouldn't even be able to tell you where to get them. I told him about the woodmanspartsplus place i found on-line, and how they were helpful sending me a schematic and had templates so they could make parts at their foundry.

The guy asked me how i found the info, could i share it with him, boy this was going to help a lot of customers.

I still consider myself very much a neophyte in all this, and to think that i was a font of information to people who've been in this business for years was just too funny.

It almost seems as if "stove people" live in some kind of parallel universe and "coal people" are an underground portion.

It's interesting to see what the gov't has to say. I occasionally cast a jaundiced eye on gov't reports since i've had to write reports for them. Kinda scary sometimes to see what gets edited.
megan

No problem, megan - I understand your point.

I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong, just wanted to post the official gov't account of US coal import and export. Which basically says that US - China coal trade is non-existent. Your local guy may have cornered some niche market on China. Just be careful if he is trying to use a "Hard to get...all going to China...gotta charge you more" scare tactic to gouge you or rope you into some higher price.

Corey

 

[Charlie Z]

Megan, they still make your Wenlock, so parts shouldn't be hard to get. The don't import them any longer, but you can get AGA to get them for you. Ask for the parts dept at www.aga-ranges.com.

I notice a few napadigital folks over here...

-Charlie

 

[megan]

Charlie,
thanks for the suggestion. A friend of mine lives in the UK and went to check out the Much Wenlocks. I can get replacment parts here that are iron quite easily, so that's not the problem.

I discussed with DH another great suggestion made here to talk to a glassblower and see if he can help me with the liner or boiler that needs to be redone. DH said, well that might work, and he took a flashlight to have a look-see inside the stove. The light shone through to the wall, which bothered the both of us. It wasn't just the liner, but the thingy covering the rear flue (it can be top flued or rear flued, and ours is top flued) showed a crack around it.

Our chimney sweep, who also fixes stoves and has made repairs for us in the past won't touch it now. As i've shared in other threads, i'm a mechanical retard. Fortunately, i've been blessed to have mechanical geniuses cross my path, and they don't gouge me on price if they fix stuff for me. This situation reminds me of the time i was driving my 1983 Honda Civic, and my mechanic who'd worked on the car for nearly the entire time i owned it said, "You can still drive it for a little while--like two months-- but start looking for another car now. You don't want this one to let you down."

This man fixed anything with four wheels and a motor, so his telling me to consider another car was like the voice of the Almighty saying, "It's time to get a new car."

I feel the same way about our sweep. If he doesn't think it's worth fixing, it probably isn't. I also got a sick feeling when i saw that light shine through; and, i must say, that top loading feature i saw in the Hitzer would be a nice thing to have indeed.

I'm not approaching this swap-out lightly, but i am thinking that it is best for us to take this route. Even though it might not make sense to all of you amazing fix-it wizards out there, i have to go with my gut on this one.

megan

Megan, they still make your Wenlock, so parts shouldn't be hard to get. The don't import them any longer, but you can get AGA to get them for you. Ask for the parts dept at www.aga-ranges.com.

I notice a few napadigital folks over here...

-Charlie

 

[Charlie Z]

Ugh. That crack sounds terminal.

My second choice to the Darby is the Hitzer 503 coal insert with the hopper. Reasonably priced, though homely after your Wenlock. It's a pure coal stove.

The Hitzer 983 insert (with optional double doors) is more like the Darby in capacity and ability to burn wood, but it is hand-fired. I think the double door model looks OK. I haven't found an truly attractive US made coal stove, though. All are well made and wonderfully functional, but none compare to the coalbrookdale as furniture.

If you're going for a regular coal stove you have a lot of options: Harman, Hitzer, Alaska, Keystoker that all make handfired, hopper and stoker models. People using the stokers seem to be particularly happy. They all seem to have '70s motel TV-on-a-stand styling (Color TV), though.

 

[megan]

Charlie,
Thanks for mentioning the www.nepadigital.com site. I've been reading stuff over there.

I did take some pics of the much wenlock but think that might be better suited to its own thread.

megan

 

[DavidJinPa]

Switched over to try it in our new Harman 2500 furnace this late winter. I was totally amazed at how efficient, and clean it is compair too wood. The ash is two fold in the pan, but that is basically a hauling out issue. I've gotten the feel for shaking it down with the ash door closed now. No dust at all. In all it's easier, safer, and more consistent heat. Should have my three ton coal bin totally built today so I'm ready too stock up this summer.
DJ