Can someone explain this?

[TK-421]

As I determine which stove to buy I am also preparing my house for it's arrival.

Hearth pads and R factor.

The Englander 30 R 1.5. To keep it a low profile and reduce the tripping hazard I would go with 1" air gap at 1.43 R, 1/2" durarock and 1/4" tile. That combined puts me over 1.5R.

I just read the Lopi liberty and it simply says non combustible floor equaling .018"(26) gauge.

For that I could just lay in ceramic Tile after I router in a recessed area to make it perfectly flush.

Likewise I see not R value for the last choice, Jotul f600.



Why the big difference between two similar stoves, the Lopi and Englander? It there a bottom heat shield on it to lessen the heat transfer? Same with the Jotul. Is having a two inch high hearth pad the big drawback to the Englander?


Checking on woodland direct hearth pads they only have R-values up to 1.4. They don't even make one that can handle the Englander.

 

[BrotherBart]

It is a mystery to me. The only low place with my 30 that gets hot is out front of it where the heat from secondary combustion radiates down through the glass. Under it with the legs is cool as a cucumber. But ya have to do it by the book for inspection and insurance.

What they list for clearances was the result of the UL testing at Warnock Hersey. They don't get a vote on it.

 

[soupy1957]

Geez............I just remember going to the store knowing I wanted a stove to burn wood in, and that's about it. I wanted it to be big enough to burn a good size fire; have glass big enough to SEE the fire; and I knew enough to go after double-wall flue pipe and ensure that I had fire-retardant wall board behind it.

Other than those things, I knew very little.

When we start talking "R" factors, ...........I find myself wondering.............c'mon dude............why can't you just "buy a stove" without all the technical stuff? I'm sure it all matters, in the bigger scheme of things.............perhaps it's some sort of scientific, or Engineering thing. I don't pretend to know.

-Soupy1957

 

[TK-421]

You did and many others did too.

These days, you dont follow the rules, you burn your house down, insurance wont pay.

 

[soupy1957]

That's why I:

A) Hired a reputable Dealer/Installer to do the work
B) Acquired all the necessary Permits
C) Had the Town Inspector out AND my Insurance Company Inspector
come out to Inspect and approve the work done.
D) Went with overkill (some might say) with regard to the fire retardancy of the
adjacent walls and so forth.
E) Bought a decent fire Extinquisher.
F) Learned from smarter folks than I, (in here especially) "how" to do things safely
and correctly.

-Soupy1957

 

[Wood Duck]

The floor R value requirement is why I have a Lopi instead of an Englander. Lopi requires only 'non-combustible' floor while Englanders require an R value my hearth doesn't have. I had a raised hearth before I bought the stove, and under tile and hardibacker the raised area is built of wood. It was a pain to have to find a stove that could be installed on the raised pad, but I do like having the raised pad. It looks nice and makes the stove a little higher for a little bit easier loading. As for tripping, I don't think it is an issue. Nobody should be walking that close to the stove anyway (the raised area extends maybe a foot or so in front of the stove).

 

[mhrischuk]

How do you create an airspace and then put a 500 lb load on it without it collapsing?

 

[TK-421]

How do you create an airspace and then put a 500 lb load on it without it collapsing?

Use a non combustible spacer that acts lime stringers that placed carefully fall under the legs of your stove. That way all the weight is carried down the stringers/spacers.

You could use strips of backer board/Duroc, steel etc.

 

[mhrischuk]

That should work but locally at the stringers you have less R value if you get technical.

 

[firefighterjake]

As I determine which stove to buy I am also preparing my house for it's arrival.

Hearth pads and R factor.

The Englander 30 R 1.5. To keep it a low profile and reduce the tripping hazard I would go with 1" air gap at 1.43 R, 1/2" durarock and 1/4" tile. That combined puts me over 1.5R.

I just read the Lopi liberty and it simply says non combustible floor equaling .018"(26) gauge.

For that I could just lay in ceramic Tile after I router in a recessed area to make it perfectly flush.

Likewise I see not R value for the last choice, Jotul f600.



Why the big difference between two similar stoves, the Lopi and Englander? It there a bottom heat shield on it to lessen the heat transfer? Same with the Jotul. Is having a two inch high hearth pad the big drawback to the Englander?


Checking on woodland direct hearth pads they only have R-values up to 1.4. They don't even make one that can handle the Englander.

Random thoughts . . .

I imagine the hearth protection requirements have a lot to do with the EPA testing . . . and the construction and design features of the stove may have a lot to do with the way the heat is dissipated. With the Jotul Oslo for example there is a bottom heat . . . and a decent sized ash pan . . . that mass of metal should reduce quite a bit of the radiant heat going downward . . . add in some ash in both the ash pan and firebox and I suspect even less heat will be radiated downward. But what do I know . . . I'm just a hick firefighter.

On a side note . . . my own belief is that a 1 1/2 inch hearth is just as much of a trip hazard as a 3 inch or 1/2 inch hearth pad . . . as folks mentioned . . . most of the time unless you go with a very large, over-sized hearth you shouldn't be stumbling over it anyways . . .

 

[joecool85]

My hearth is going to be about 3.5" tall but the gate going around it will keep any of us from tripping on it. Honestly, I wanted to do a 6-8" tall hearth but the wife opposed it. Whatever, I'm just happy she's finally ok with having a stove

 

[Hass]

there was just a thread on this about stoves that require only ember protection I recall.

Ember protection only is required for stoves that don't transmit very much head to the hearth.
The R Value is used to keep the hearth cool.
That way, if a spark were to land on the hearth, seeing as that the hearth is already preheated from a raging fire, the hearth could potentially burn like crazy.
I'm nearly positive it's more so related to the wooden subfloor underneath the hearth, however... as even if you only have a layer of durock there, it's not going to burn.
but if the plywood underneath it is being heated to 200-300 degrees, then an ember hits it for whatever reason (i'm not sure how one can get down there) then you have a little bigger fire going.

 

[TK-421]

I was pretty sure I knew the answer but wanted a bit more. I called the manufacturer but for Englander.

Yes both he Jotul 600 and Lopi liberty only need ember even though they mention heat transfer in the manual. Both techs said the same thing. You could just put them on the floor unprotected and burn away. They simplynwant floor protection in case of embers landing on a burnsble surface. Both require a minimum 26 gauge or equivalent.

I'm guessing and I say guessing the part of the reason Englander is so cheap is they may have just given it the highest rating to avoid putting it through the testing. R- factor of 1.5 means 6 layers of duroc and a finished top of some sort. If you go tile add another 1/2".

My plan was to router the area to make a flush hearth since one corner is close to a walk way. I can't take my router down to my floor joists and notch them too.

Shame. It's a great price for the Englander.

 

[mhrischuk]

there was just a thread on this about stoves that require only ember protection I recall.

Ember protection only is required for stoves that don't transmit very much head to the hearth.
The R Value is used to keep the hearth cool.
That way, if a spark were to land on the hearth, seeing as that the hearth is already preheated from a raging fire, the hearth could potentially burn like crazy.
I'm nearly positive it's more so related to the wooden subfloor underneath the hearth, however... as even if you only have a layer of durock there, it's not going to burn.
but if the plywood underneath it is being heated to 200-300 degrees, then an ember hits it for whatever reason (i'm not sure how one can get down there) then you have a little bigger fire going.

Actually it's not the hearth itself that is the concern. ALL hearths must be non-combustible, period. The stoves that require specific R values tend to generate more radiant heat towards the floor. The problem is continued radiant heat will go through the hearth and heat the combustible floor. When burning 24/7 the floor becomes a hot piece of combustible material.

One guy told me it's not uncommon to have a fire in the basement or crawlspace from a fireplace that had it's base poured onto wooden forms. The contractors leave the form in place which is not acceptable but you know... these are professionals. The wood heats up. You get separations in the fire brick above over time. A small hot ember drops in between the brick and there you go.

 

[joecool85]

One guy told me it's not uncommon to have a fire in the basement or crawlspace from a fireplace that had it's base poured onto wooden forms. The contractors leave the form in place which is not acceptable but you know... these are professionals. The wood heats up. You get separations in the fire brick above over time. A small hot ember drops in between the brick and there you go.

Whoa, that's kind of scary. One more reason I like free standing stoves as opposed to fireplaces.

 

[wkpoor]

Had a house near me catch fire because the masonry chimney was laid up around the roof trusses. Only took 20yrs before enough motor crumbled away to expose the wood and ignite.

 

[begreen]

Pyrolysis will lower the ignition temperature of wood over time. My wife grew up in a stunning log inn all made of chestnut during the depression. The builder made exactly this mistake, relying on concrete to separate the combustible log framing and stone hearth. Fast forward 40 years, in the middle of a bad new England cold snap. We had fires going 24/7 in both fireplaces. In the middle of the night, fortunately someone smelled smoke. The upper fireplace had ignited the ends of the supporting timbers. Fortunately they were huge and we got them before there was major damage. Needless to say that was the last fire in that fireplace.

This is the chimney. For more shots of the place:
http://www.seanaikman.com/printable.php?property_ID=72