Carbon Monoxide almost killed us

[arcticcatmatt]

my carbon monoxide detector went off at 12:30 a.m. I opened windows and went to bed.

I think the scariest thing here is your response to the CO alarm was to go to bed.

Well I opened windows until the unit went off. I then placed the unit in my bedroom. Hours later it went off again. So I opened the window in my bedroom too. Dropped it to 60 degrees in there haha. Then, when the alarm turned off. So, I could go to bed.

There are a few cracks in the masonary fireplace, maybe 3 bricks? hairline cracks. I don't think it came from those, my fireplace inspector said they were ok. I did a test today. I closed the draft a little to much. A very faint hint of smoke started coming out of the draft slider.

Oh and the chimney is not clogged, I paid a pro to come clean all of my chimneys a month ago.

I would call the fire department and ask questions but its turkey day.. I will let them be with their families. I will ring them maybe tomorrow. I live in a town of 900 people with no stop light or store. Needless to say, we are very small. I don't know if my fire department even has that kind of testing equipment.

 

[bokehman]

Well I opened windows until the unit went off. I then placed the unit in my bedroom. Hours later it went off again.

Have you read the instructions that came with the Kidde? My guess is the read something like: When the alarm sounds shut off all fuel burning appliances, open windows and then leave the property. Do not re-enter the property until a professional has been called and has found the source.

 

[Redox]

Well I opened windows until the unit went off. I then placed the unit in my bedroom. Hours later it went off again.

Have you read the instructions that came with the Kidde? My guess is the read something like: When the alarm sounds shut off all fuel burning appliances, open windows and then leave the property. Do not re-enter the property until a professional has been called and has found the source.

I agree! Don't call 911; call the local fire dept and ask for a quick check. Trust me, they'd rather you called now, while you still can.

Chris

 

[gzecc]

A few years ago on Long Island NY a Dr. woke up to an alarm just before he woke up for work. It was the co dectector. He assumed it was a nusance alarm and disconnected it and went to work. When he came home after work his family was dead.
I always have backup co monitoring. I don't want to wake up dead!

 

[branchburner]

When was the last time your oil burner was inspected?

 

[oconnor]

Matt

The appliance performace symptoms you describe (smoke) are making me wonder about flow reversal in your flue. Being a masonary heater, an OAK may not be desired, as once the fire is out, you would have massive heat loss from the flow - you would be cooling it with outside air. The point is to have it radiate to the house (I know Matt knows this, others may not)

Why are you closing the draft at all? You need to burn that baby hot, hot, hot, until the fire is done to get the heat into the masonry. That would include all of the coals burning way down as well.

Many things can cause flow reversal, from stack effect to mechanical depressurisation, to wind effect on the house. Have it, and any other combustion sources checked, before you wake up dead. If you think it is mech depressurisation, then install an interlocked make up air fan that brings air in to replace what the dryer sucks out.

As for CO detectors, they are a code requirement in Canada, unless you have had a depressurisation field test done to some standard that I am sure most installers have never read. My installer, nor my insurance company have asked me or told me, but I have one.

 

[webbie]

Extremely rare that CO causes problems with wood burners, but it is possible.....

Usually, what saves people is that smoke and odors are present way before the CO get's too heavy in concentration...

BUT, once wood burns down to coals it may be almost like hard coal - mostly fixed carbon (charcoal) and that stuff would kill you quick!

Based on the evidence in this case, I would agree that it is highly likely that the fireplace was the cause.

For most stove users the lesson is this - do not shut the air controls down all the way! Many modern stoves have fixed (always open) secondary air inlets and also many do not allow full closure of the input air.

Again, in general this is not a big problem in the industry. But the combination of factors in this case may have been the exception.

 

[woodconvert]

Last night my carbon monoxide detector went off at 12:30 a.m. I opened windows and went to bed. It went off again at 2 a.m. This detector came with the house and has a date on it. It is 5 years old. Hours before I took asprin because I had a headache and my girlfriend thought she had a migraine so she took her special migraine medication

Without knowing anything else......JFC are you friggin' lucky. I almost feel ill.

 

[branchburner]

Matt, I hope you're not going to bed tonight just thinking you know what the problem is. You need to KNOW what the problem is. If a professional has not inspected all potential CO sources in the house you should not be sleeping there (unless you plan on no heat, no hot water and leaving all the windows open).
It doesn't seem certain your house is tight enough to pull CO in with a dryer. But the fact you did 5 loads of laundry does indicate you used a lot of hot water. Do not rule out your oil burner as a source.
As you said, if something is going to take you out, do not let it be something preventable. Life and death decisions are best not taken lightly.

 

[arcticcatmatt]

^ We use cold water to do laundry. No hot water. I know what your saying however. Current readings on the CO detectors is zero and the smell of smoke is gone. I am leaving the draft a lot more open now.

When was the last time your oil burner was inspected?

5 months ago. Paid a pro to come service it and inspect it.

Matt
Why are you closing the draft at all? You need to burn that baby hot, hot, hot, until the fire is done to get the heat into the masonry. That would include all of the coals burning way down as well.

Start fire with draft on full open - hot hot fire. In less than 1 hr its out and I have coals. When fire is out, close draft so its almost closed, about one inch open. This helps hold the heat from the coals in while still venting the fumes. That there is where I screwed up. I closed the draft less than 1 inch and filled my walkway with smoke. I pulled it out and increased it a little which I thought was good enough and went to bed. Hrs later the detector was going off.

Now I have made a gage so that its closed one inch, every time. No guessing. Now my girlfriend and I cannot make that mistake again. That is the second time we filled the walkway with smoke from draft being too closed too much.

For the people telling me to get out of the house now - keep in mind that I have 2 detectors installed as I type. One at each end of the house. No alarms are sounding and the digital readout says we are fine. The only other sources for CO have been inspected within the past 5 months. Professional chimney cleaning and inspection included with a professional going thru my fuel oil furnace/hot water system. Those two guys cost me 300 bucks. I have no gas systems. I am talking to the fire department today to see if they can inspect for CO as a precaution.

Done deal

 

[billb3]

We had a Kidde CO alarm start intermittantly chirping.
Digital readout had a number (usually 0) that was apparently near the alarm threshold.
Girls in the office had been complaining of headaches the day before.
Went upstairs and found the chimney for the gas stove had blown away and the gas furnace was exhausting into the building.

 

[branchburner]

Well, I think the point some of us are trying to make is that folks should err on the side of caution. Being vigilant and having more CO detectors is good, but a detector will not clear up cloudy thinking, it will not carry you downstairs and out the door, and it will not bring you back to life. I'm worried because your posts sound exactly like my own thought process: I think I figured out the problem and the solution, so I can relax. It's pretty easy to become our own worst enemies.

But getting back to the heater - where is the draft control located in relation to the firebox, and where does the visible smoke come out of the heater when you have these drafting problems? Is there also a damper, and where is that located?

 

[roac]

Just an FYI, most washers don't wash in true "cold" water. It is mixed with hot water to get it up to 70 degrees F. So you do use some hot water, more now that it is cold. With that said some washers do have a true cold only setting.

 

[offroadaudio]

Code is 50 cubic feet free air is required for every 1000 BTUs appliance output. No petmit or stove instalation should be granted unless adequate combustion air is present.
All appliances BTUs are added up and Divided into the area vollume . A dryer removes up to 160 cfms ,that air must be factored and means to replace it

The ghost of Christmas past?

 

[Redox]

Code is 50 cubic feet free air is required for every 1000 BTUs appliance output. No petmit or stove instalation should be granted unless adequate combustion air is present.
All appliances BTUs are added up and Divided into the area vollume . A dryer removes up to 160 cfms ,that air must be factored and means to replace it

The ghost of Christmas past?

Deja vu all over again.

Chris

 

[fossil]

Maybe the detector was just trying to tell you it wanted its battery replaced. They have different ways of reminding us, depending on the manufacturer/model. In any case, I was taught to always believe my indications, and take appropriate action based on them, and sort it out later. Alarm goes off, we're up and outta there until I know what caused the alarm. Rick

 

[bcnu]

I was at H Depot last week and looked at a CO detector. Didn't buy. Guess I'll be heading back soon to get one or more. Besides my stove I do use a little heat from the oil furnace - circa 1966.

 

[Redox]

If they aren't code in your area, they should be. Get two. That way, if one starts going off, you can check the other before going into a panic.

I've given them away as Xmas gifts before. Hopefully, the recipients have all taken them out of the box and plugged them in by now...

Chris

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Seeing this thread, I was reminded our Kidde Nighthawk is about 8 years old now. I bought another Kidde last night and will set it up right away. We're not burning much oil any more. That boiler/hydronic system has been reliable and trouble free, anyway. The only other potential hazard is the wood stove. No gas plumbed in here.

 

[arcticcatmatt]

If they aren't code in your area, they should be. Get two. That way, if one starts going off, you can check the other before going into a panic.

I've given them away as Xmas gifts before. Hopefully, the recipients have all taken them out of the box and plugged them in by now...

Chris

It was "code" to have one in my house for sale. I bought it in May and it was required to be sold with one. I do have two now, one in bedroom and one in living room. Opposite ends of house.

I talked to the firedepartment. They have a meter and are coming up

 

[Dustin]

I have been a Volunteer Fire Fighter for 6 years now.


If you get a CO alarm. GET OUT OF THE HOUSE! Get your kids, pets, and GET OUT.


Call the fire department right away. Call your dispatch non emergency number, or even call 911. That's what we are here for, and that's what the 911 center is for.


The fire department will show up, pack up ( with self contained breathing apparatus) aka SCBA's. We will then walk in with an air meter. I forget the technical name for it.


It will "sniff" the air for CO and give us an LEL number, and parts per million. We use these after we put out a house fire. We have a policy set fourth that if you are in a residence with a certain LEL level you MUST wear an air pack. So, the long short of it is, your CO alarm close to, if not exactly at the LEL level that we MUST wear an air pack.


Get out of the house, call the FD. We'll pack up, go in, and check it. We have the air packs and the tools to make sure it's safe. And we show up 24/7.


From what iv'e read here. I wouldn't burn the heater until I had it all checked. It's really not worth it.


If your alarm goes off, you in no way shape of form should be in your house. I can't drive this one home enough.

 

[JotulOwner]

If something is going to take me out, I'll be damned if its something like this that can be prevented/monitored.[/quote]


Having more than one CO detector around isn't a bad idea either. I have them all over the place. I know it may be overkill, but it's better than being killed over hh:

 

[firefighterjake]

If they aren't code in your area, they should be. Get two. That way, if one starts going off, you can check the other before going into a panic.

I've given them away as Xmas gifts before. Hopefully, the recipients have all taken them out of the box and plugged them in by now...

Chris

It was "code" to have one in my house for sale. I bought it in May and it was required to be sold with one. I do have two now, one in bedroom and one in living room. Opposite ends of house.

I talked to the firedepartment. They have a meter and are coming up

It's been said before, but I'll say it again . . . whether a fire department is career, paid-call or volunteer matters not a bit . . . if there's a potential problem we want to be called regardless of the time of day, day of the week or holiday. As mentioned before, we would rather show up and find no problem, rather than have someone think they can handle a fire on their own, or disregard a CO detector warning, etc. and have someone get seriously injured.

Also, I would have been quite surprised if your small town FD did not have a gas meter. These units aren't cheap . . . but they're not expensive either and most FDs now have at a very minimum a CO detector . . . and if that FD doesn't have one typically they can get one from a neighboring mutual aid FD or another agency.

Trust me . . . we never look at 911 calls as someone being a "pest" . . . well except for the ambulance squad's "Frequent Flyers" . . . but that's a whole different story.

Now about your choice in snowmobiles/ATVs . . . we may have to talk.

 

[firefighterjake]

I have been a Volunteer Fire Fighter for 6 years now.


If you get a CO alarm. GET OUT OF THE HOUSE! Get your kids, pets, and GET OUT.


Call the fire department right away. Call your dispatch non emergency number, or even call 911. That's what we are here for, and that's what the 911 center is for.


The fire department will show up, pack up ( with self contained breathing apparatus) aka SCBA's. We will then walk in with an air meter. I forget the technical name for it.


It will "sniff" the air for CO and give us an LEL number, and parts per million. We use these after we put out a house fire. We have a policy set fourth that if you are in a residence with a certain LEL level you MUST wear an air pack. So, the long short of it is, your CO alarm close to, if not exactly at the LEL level that we MUST wear an air pack.


Get out of the house, call the FD. We'll pack up, go in, and check it. We have the air packs and the tools to make sure it's safe. And we show up 24/7.


From what iv'e read here. I wouldn't burn the heater until I had it all checked. It's really not worth it.


If your alarm goes off, you in no way shape of form should be in your house. I can't drive this one home enough.

I agree with D/F's post 100% . . . when the CO alarm sounds and you've got a concern it's time to get out and call 911.

The one thing I should state is that Bokehman mentioned that Kidde's literature states that one should shut off appliances, open windows, leave and call for help. There are a couple potential problems I have with this . . . 1) by staying inside shutting down appliances you're potentially staying exposed to CO for a longer period and 2) when the FD arrives we will now have to attempt to duplicate the same conditions that caused the CO detector to alarm. I personally recommend folks to simply get out and call 911 if the detector is sounding and they have any symptoms of CO poisoning (low levels = headache, nausea, dizziness, light-headed, etc.) -- this way we can more accurately try to determine what (if anything) is causing the CO detector to alert.

Also, a number of folks mentioned CO detectors with digital meters. A more important feature to me is battery back-up or battery power since a good number of CO incidents we have seen here in Maine involve situations involving a lack of power (and subsequent and stupid use of old kerosene heaters, generators being placed inside, etc.) However, in relation to the digital meters -- I like them. It helps us (firefighters) to know the level at the time you called and also provides the home owner with some assurance that this may not be a faulty alarm (something we don't see as much as we used to with some of the earlier CO detectors), but honestly all CO detectors are set to activate at a certain CO parts per million level regardless of whether they have a digital meter or not.

And finally some more advice from a guy who has spent the last 15 years teaching this stuff to the general public as his job . . .

-- As mentioned by Arcticchat . . . CO detectors should be replaced every 3-5 years (so Driz even though you love that CO detector you bought in 1988 it's time to replace it with a newer one -- but I would still keep it as a back-up) and smoke detectors should be replaced every 10 years

-- Smoke detectors are good . . . and studies have shown a direct correlation to the number you have and your chances of surviving a fire. However, equally important -- they have to work (which goes back to replacing batteries in them at least once a year) and this means not disabling them by yanking out the battery or turning them off (electric) by hitting the circuit breaker when they go off while you're cooking. People disabling the detectors (due to "false alarms" such as burned toast, burned food, steam from a shower, etc.) and then failing to reactivate them is a very serious problem . . . which is why they have smoke detectors now with silencer features which will hush the detector when a button is pushed for five minutes and then it resets itself (one model also uses a standard TV remote to silence it which is nice for high or cathedral ceilings).

-- And while we're on the smoke detector tangent . . . some newer homes have interconnected smoke detectors which I like (if one goes off in a house, they all alarm). Folks with older homes who do not want to rewire their homes can now buy wireless interconnected smoke detectors as well. Even more important in my own opinion is that folks not just have quantity, but quality when it comes to smoke detectors. What I mean by this is I highly recommend having both ionization and photo-electric detectors (or a dual ion/photo-electric detector) in their home -- to make a long winded post a bit shorter . . . having one of both types or a dual model will provide you with the earliest warning possible.

-- Fire extinguishers. A good idea. An escape plan. An even better idea. Your whole family should know what to do if the alarm sounds . . . do not rely on the firefighters to save your kids. There's a chance . . . a good chance if you live in a rural area like I do, that we will not get there in time. Instead, teach your children how to get out (with a second exit in mind) and where they should meet so that everyone knows everyone is out.

And Firefighterjake's last bit of advice . . . financial this time around . . . there is a nation-wide company that will invite you to a free dinner and then they'll give a spiel about how your detectors in your home are bad and their detectors are good. Don't fall for the MG spiel . . . while they are selling their products legally, IMHO they're deceptive and using scare tactics to sell over-priced merchandise.

 

[bokehman]

I should state is that Bokehman mentioned that Kidde's literature states

Jake, FYI, I don't know what it says in the Kidde manual, I was just guessing. I have a Fireangel CO-828. Here's what it says in the manual: 1) Keep calm and open doors and windows to ventilate. 2) Turn off appliance where possible and stop using it. 3) Evacuate the property leaving doors and windows open. 4) Ring your gas or other fuel supplier on their emergency number; keep the number in a prominent place. 5) Do not re-enter the property until the alarm has stopped sounding. 6) Get medical help immediately for anyone suffering the effect of carbon monoxide poisoning, (headache, nausea) and advise carbon monoxide poisoning is suspected. 7) Do not use the appliance again until it has been checked by an expert...