Carbon Monoxide question

[Renovation]

Every time I get a blast of smoke out of my stove, my monoxide meter will register 10 PPM on the next floor up... I think CO becomes dangerous around 60 PPM.. Check out the Kidde Nighthawk Carbon Monoxide meter/detector it is a good unit that actually has a read-out...

Thanks for the tip!

 

[ckarotka]

Found this about mounting location.

"Placement of a carbon monoxide detector:
Proper placement of a carbon monoxide detector is important. If you are installing only one carbon monoxide detector, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recommends it be located near the sleeping area, where it can wake you if you are asleep. Additional detectors on every level and in every bedroom of a home provides extra protection. Don't install carbon monoxide detectors directly beside or above fuel-burning appliances, as appliances may emit a small amount of carbon monoxide upon start-up. A detector should not be placed within fifteen feet of heating or cooking appliances or in or near very humid areas such as bathrooms. Manufactureres like First Alert suggest mounting the detector on the ceiling. "


Rob

well I was miss informed. Happens everyday. That's why I like this site. I wish I could remember who taught that info. Oh well there is no disputing how dangerous CO is and how easy it is to mis diagnose.

 

[CarbonNeutral]

I was trying to burn off an ember bed and left my front door ajar, with, as it turns out, a mostly blocked mesh cap. Both my CO detectors went off....

 

[tfdchief]

well I was miss informed. Happens everyday. That’s why I like this site. I wish I could remember who taught that info. Oh well there is no disputing how dangerous CO is and how easy it is to mis diagnose.

Wasn't me :exclaim: :zip: Placement, specific gravity, etc for CO. http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/19/carbon_monoxide_detector_placement/

 

[firefighterjake]

I hope this isn't my second post here the first kinda disappeared.

Mount the CO detector near the floor. CO is heavier than room air and will concentrate on the floor first. A ceiling mounted one will provide interesting thoughts of why it didn't go off when your lying on your back staring up at it. Actually CO when heated will rise . . . but the weight is pretty comparable to normal air so mounting a CO detector anywhere height-wise should be fine . . . plus in most cases the issue with CO is a matter of time and exposure -- unlike smoke which can kill in minutes, most folks with CO poisonings are killed in a matter of hours . . . unless there is a lot of CO . . . and in either case that much CO will set off any CO detector regardless of where it is placed height wise.

As a Paramedic I've never been to a call for CO with a wood stove involved. Mr. Murphy will find a way.

Symptoms:
Nausea
Fatigue
confusion
Head ache in a band around ....well you head
Cherry red lips is a late sign you need to act quickly Very true . . . for years they were teaching the cherry lips and skin tone was a sign . . . but as you mentioned this is a very, very late sign and not good.

Treatment:
Call 911 and let Jake show up with his fancy meter to find the source first
If your feeling sick request a ambulance we can treat minor symptoms on scene with 100% O2
Leave the house
opening windows is up for debate cuz it makes it harder for the Fire guys to locate the source, sometimes
Serious cases need to go to a barometric chamber. All good points . . . and I concur . . . we would rather folks just leave the house and not ventilate since it means in many cases that the CO will dissipate and we will have a harder time tracking down the potential source.


CO the silent killer, Can't smell it, taste it or see it.

You could get a bird like minors used to, when it stops tweeting..........get out!! I think I would pass on the miner's canary in the cave trick and stick with a CO detector.

 

[firefighterjake]

when did the CO detector thing get going? I only ask because as a kid growing up (70's and 80's), we burned all through the winter (Upstate NY) and so did all of our neighbors, friends, family etc...never even HEARD of a CO problem, or even a CO detector. I only jumped back into the woodburning world recently and it just seems that, while we all know CO can kill, of course - how likely is it to have probs with our woodburning? Don't get me wrong - i'm buying two detectors this weekend but, i think there may be some smoke/mirrors within the industry too. I won't challenge it, because i have a family at home - but i think there is a little bit there.

As I stated before I do not think the risk of CO poisoning is as high as folks using oil or gas to heat their home . . . but there is still a risk and since I'm kind of partial to living and kind of like my wife I figure the small cost of purchasing a safety device that could potentially save our lives is worth it . . . besides I still use a propane gas hot water heater and have a propane gas oven and occasionally use my oil boiler.

As for the whole conspiracy theory . . . nah . . . it's just another safety tool that finally became affordable and reliable enough for us normal folks to purchase . . . much like smoke detectors were uncommon in the 1960s -- they had them, but they were electric, bulky and very expensive. When the tech evolved to allow 9 volt batteries to effectively power the smoke detectors the price dropped and for the first time normal folks could buy them and install them. The result by the way was a drop from an average of 12,000 Americans dying in fire each year in the 1960s to an average of 3,500 or so Americans dying each year in fire -- of course let's be honest, fire codes and fire education have also played a part in this drop.

 

[firefighterjake]

it is a different attitude and different world.

Safety is a form of natural selection. Those who don't believe in it will eventually be deselected.

Sounds good in practice . . . unfortunately the issue that sometimes arises is when folks get injured or die trying to save those folks who are being deselected.

 

[firefighterjake]

Found this about mounting location.

"Placement of a carbon monoxide detector:
Proper placement of a carbon monoxide detector is important. If you are installing only one carbon monoxide detector, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recommends it be located near the sleeping area, where it can wake you if you are asleep. Additional detectors on every level and in every bedroom of a home provides extra protection. Don't install carbon monoxide detectors directly beside or above fuel-burning appliances, as appliances may emit a small amount of carbon monoxide upon start-up. A detector should not be placed within fifteen feet of heating or cooking appliances or in or near very humid areas such as bathrooms. Manufactureres like First Alert suggest mounting the detector on the ceiling. "


Rob

well I was miss informed. Happens everyday. That's why I like this site. I wish I could remember who taught that info. Oh well there is no disputing how dangerous CO is and how easy it is to mis diagnose.

Don't beat yourself up . . . information is always changing . . . what the guy told you was probably true at the time or he wasn't aware of the facts.

Besides, you know how Fire Chiefs are. Fishing . . . fishing . . . fishing . . . fishing . . .

 

[homebrewz]

when did the CO detector thing get going? I only ask because as a kid growing up (70's and 80's), we burned all through the winter (Upstate NY) and so did all of our neighbors, friends, family etc...never even HEARD of a CO problem, or even a CO detector. I only jumped back into the woodburning world recently and it just seems that, while we all know CO can kill, of course - how likely is it to have probs with our woodburning? Don't get me wrong - i'm buying two detectors this weekend but, i think there may be some smoke/mirrors within the industry too. I won't challenge it, because i have a family at home - but i think there is a little bit there.

Good points above, Jake. I'll just add that with modern advances in building and insulation, houses are also tighter now.

 

[fallsfire36]

I have 2. One battery operated and one Nighthawk with the digital readout. My main occupation is a fireman and the plug-in Nighthawk with the battery back-up is what I usually recommend.

 

[Renovation]

Symptoms:
Nausea
Fatigue
confusion
Head ache in a band around ....well you head
Cherry red lips is a late sign you need to act quickly

CO the silent killer, Can't smell it, taste it or see it.

You could get a bird like minors used to, when it stops tweeting..........get out!!

"You live your life like a canary in a coal mine, you get so dizzy even walking in a straight line." -- The Police

I'm here to testify what a subtle danger CO is.

My sister's family lived in an apartment building that had a faulty furnace. All they knew is that their whole family "had the flue"--headaches, fatique, dizziness... Mysteriously, it seemed to get better during the day (when they were elsewhere), but hung on for a month. Their lives were Hellish, and they were at wit's end. Then one day my brother-in-law comes home to see emergency vehicles surrounding the building, and his neighbors being hauled out on stretchers.

Fortunately, no one was killed, and the good part is the example that CO poisoning can be subtle, slow, and mistaken for other things.

 

[jeff_t]

I do remember CO detectors hitting the market in the mid nineties. I was fairly new and remember our first response to a CO alarm activation. We kinda looked at each other and wondered what to do. We had no protocol, and I don't think we had a gas meter yet. I think we called the local propane company to use theirs. Ended up being a bad battery, of course.

Of the activations I've seen that weren't false alarms, most involved furnace or water heater issues. I've also seen high concentrations from candles during power outages, and from the car running in the garage, but never anything involving a wood stove.

As a side note, I have a mechanical heat alarm at the top of my basement stairs where my wood furnace is. It's a loud bell with a striker driven by a clock spring. It's activated by a fusible link, and is supposed to ring for about five minutes. It's kinda cool-no batteties and no false alarms from the occasional smoke spillage, yet it is there in case of a serious problem (fire).

 

[firefighterjake]

I do remember CO detectors hitting the market in the mid nineties. I was fairly new and remember our first response to a CO alarm activation. We kinda looked at each other and wondered what to do. We had no protocol, and I don't think we had a gas meter yet. I think we called the local propane company to use theirs. Ended up being a bad battery, of course.

Of the activations I've seen that weren't false alarms, most involved furnace or water heater issues. I've also seen high concentrations from candles during power outages, and from the car running in the garage, but never anything involving a wood stove.

As a side note, I have a mechanical heat alarm at the top of my basement stairs where my wood furnace is. It's a loud bell with a striker driven by a clock spring. It's activated by a fusible link, and is supposed to ring for about five minutes. It's kinda cool-no batteties and no false alarms from the occasional smoke spillage, yet it is there in case of a serious problem (fire).

I remember well when those CO detectors first came out and were halfway affordable . . . now they're much cheaper. We too had to come up with SOPs on how to respond and what to do . . . and like you we found that some of those early models were not all that reliable -- the one from First Alert that used a bio-electric sensor unit/battery seemed to be particularly bad . . . I haven't seen any like those however for some time.

 

[ckarotka]

Found this about mounting location.

"Placement of a carbon monoxide detector:
Proper placement of a carbon monoxide detector is important. If you are installing only one carbon monoxide detector, the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recommends it be located near the sleeping area, where it can wake you if you are asleep. Additional detectors on every level and in every bedroom of a home provides extra protection. Don't install carbon monoxide detectors directly beside or above fuel-burning appliances, as appliances may emit a small amount of carbon monoxide upon start-up. A detector should not be placed within fifteen feet of heating or cooking appliances or in or near very humid areas such as bathrooms. Manufactureres like First Alert suggest mounting the detector on the ceiling. "


Rob

well I was miss informed. Happens everyday. That's why I like this site. I wish I could remember who taught that info. Oh well there is no disputing how dangerous CO is and how easy it is to mis diagnose.

Don't beat yourself up . . . information is always changing . . . what the guy told you was probably true at the time or he wasn't
aware of the facts.

Besides, you know how Fire Chiefs are. Fishing . . . fishing . . . fishing . . . fishing . . .

Thanks Jake. EMS is so scattered/riddled with opinions vs facts it drives me nuts. Hell even a huge difference in initial treatment of some injuries by two docs from the same E.D. is like apples and oranges. Make sure to get your check ups guys. Had a 36y/o male have a big ole hearth attack last night at 0300. No history himself or family history of cardiac disease. I brought him in and the ER thought I was over reacting because he was 36 till I showed them the EKG. They went OH!! I said I told ya on the radio Cardiac alert! He went right to surgery.

 

[woodgeek]

when did the CO detector thing get going? I only ask because as a kid growing up (70's and 80's), we burned all through the winter (Upstate NY) and so did all of our neighbors, friends, family etc...never even HEARD of a CO problem, or even a CO detector. I only jumped back into the woodburning world recently and it just seems that, while we all know CO can kill, of course - how likely is it to have probs with our woodburning? Don't get me wrong - i'm buying two detectors this weekend but, i think there may be some smoke/mirrors within the industry too. I won't challenge it, because i have a family at home - but i think there is a little bit there.

As I stated before I do not think the risk of CO poisoning is as high as folks using oil or gas to heat their home . . . but there is still a risk and since I'm kind of partial to living and kind of like my wife I figure the small cost of purchasing a safety device that could potentially save our lives is worth it . . . besides I still use a propane gas hot water heater and have a propane gas oven and occasionally use my oil boiler.

Indeed, we heat our DHW with oil and had a sub-alarm threshold CO problem for a few months. I was waking up 'hung over' without drinking the night before, and my wife/MIL were having headaches. We all were clumsy, stupid and dropping things. We had a First Alert CO alarm (duh) but the threshold for an alarm is 'life-threatening', well above the point with obvious symptoms. We had these episodes of problems off and on for several months....

Turns out our boiler was badly adjusted (for $300 thank you) to the point that it badly sooted up the chimney. Soot fell to the bottom elbow, almost choking off the vent, and causing the system to start to vent out the baro under some weather conditions. My house is pretty leaky, but when the inside and outside temps were nearly equal (no stack effect), we started to collect CO and have symptoms. Finally, after a few days of rainy weather hovering near 70, we finally collected enough CO to get one 'pip' from the CO alarm while we were asleep. Just one pip, so we went back to sleep. But the next day we put 2+2 together, and got everything straightened out.

I now have 3 CO alarms, including a Nighthawk with a numerical display.