Could someone explain the pros and cons to each stove and their differences. The stove I am using at my rental is a dutch west cat stove, and I am not too sure that I like them, but also I dont know much about them. So any help on the real differences between the two types would be great. Thanks!
Cat stove vs. Non-cat stove
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Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
You probably opened Pandora's box with that question. lol
Two years ago we decided it was time to put in a new stove. I had heard bad things and was told to stay away from any cat stove. That is what I fully intended to do too. For years though we had wanted a Woodstock soapstone stove so naturally started looking at them too, or sent for brochures. While waiting, we looked at many, many new stoves and found only a couple we were really interested in.
Fast forward and we got the brochures and were disappointed to see that Woodstock used cats in their stoves. Still, if they did, perhaps they weren't all bad. Long story short, we visited a couple homes that were heated by Woodstock stoves. They convinced us to buy one. We did.
After heating with the Fireview cat. stove for two winters now (and it is our only scource of heat) we can say that even though this stove is much smaller than our older stove, we stay much, much warmer. But the best part is that we use only 50% of the wood that we used to use
! Not only that, but we put up a new SS chimney when we installed the stove. It has not been cleaned yet because there is no need to clean it. This stove burns super clean.
I'll try to beat one poster on here who will say this stove is more complicated which implies that it is troublesome to use. It is not complicated in the least unless you call waiting 10-15 minutes after reloading the stove to engage the cat which amounts to moving a lever from the down position to the up position. Not complicated and the wife has no problem running it. Cleaning the cat could not be simpler and it takes probably 2 minutes to do; we do that twice per winter.
All in all, we love our cat stove because of more heat from the fuel and clean burning. As a bonus, we have another beautiful piece of furniture as this stove is a beauty. The company also can not be beat and you will not find any other company with a guarantee like you get from Woodstock.
Two years ago we decided it was time to put in a new stove. I had heard bad things and was told to stay away from any cat stove. That is what I fully intended to do too. For years though we had wanted a Woodstock soapstone stove so naturally started looking at them too, or sent for brochures. While waiting, we looked at many, many new stoves and found only a couple we were really interested in.
Fast forward and we got the brochures and were disappointed to see that Woodstock used cats in their stoves. Still, if they did, perhaps they weren't all bad. Long story short, we visited a couple homes that were heated by Woodstock stoves. They convinced us to buy one. We did.
After heating with the Fireview cat. stove for two winters now (and it is our only scource of heat) we can say that even though this stove is much smaller than our older stove, we stay much, much warmer. But the best part is that we use only 50% of the wood that we used to use
! Not only that, but we put up a new SS chimney when we installed the stove. It has not been cleaned yet because there is no need to clean it. This stove burns super clean.I'll try to beat one poster on here who will say this stove is more complicated which implies that it is troublesome to use. It is not complicated in the least unless you call waiting 10-15 minutes after reloading the stove to engage the cat which amounts to moving a lever from the down position to the up position. Not complicated and the wife has no problem running it. Cleaning the cat could not be simpler and it takes probably 2 minutes to do; we do that twice per winter.
All in all, we love our cat stove because of more heat from the fuel and clean burning. As a bonus, we have another beautiful piece of furniture as this stove is a beauty. The company also can not be beat and you will not find any other company with a guarantee like you get from Woodstock.
The main difference is in how they achieve secondary combustion. With a catalytic stove, there is a special "honey comb" like ceramic catalyst inside the fire box. When the catalyst reaches 500F or higher, it will cause smoke and gases released from the wood's primary combustion to ignite and burn (this is your secondary combustion). These stoves feature a bypass damper that is opened for fire starting and reloading and lets the smoke pass straight up the chimney, bypassing the catalyst. Once the cat is up to temp. you close the bypass, which forces the smoke into the cat honey comb where the special metals it is treated with causes it to ignite.
Non-cat stoves use a baffle and pre-heated secondary combustion air to achieve this result. However, the smoke needs reach about 1,100F (I think that's the right temp) to light off. As the smoke from the primary combustion reaches the top of the stove (the baffle), pre-heated air is injected through a series of chambers and tubes onto the top of the fire, feeding the secondary combustion process.
Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is in burn times. Since the light off temp for a cat is about half that required for a non-cat stove, you can burn "lower" and longer fires, so to speak. A non-cat by nature has to be burned pretty hot, so you end up with shorter burn times. Pros and cons? Well, I think with a cat stove you really, really have to have dry, seasoned wood. You could probably get by with a little wetter wood in a non-cat stove. Also, a cat will eventually need to be replaced (every 6-10 years if you don't burn junk wood, trash, etc.). But with a non-cat you'll have to replace the baffle system at some point. Some people say a cat stove adds a little more complexity, others say it's as simple as flipping a lever.
Read up on the Blaze King and the Woodstock Fireview. I see great owner loyalty with both of these cat stoves here.
Non-cat stoves use a baffle and pre-heated secondary combustion air to achieve this result. However, the smoke needs reach about 1,100F (I think that's the right temp) to light off. As the smoke from the primary combustion reaches the top of the stove (the baffle), pre-heated air is injected through a series of chambers and tubes onto the top of the fire, feeding the secondary combustion process.
Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is in burn times. Since the light off temp for a cat is about half that required for a non-cat stove, you can burn "lower" and longer fires, so to speak. A non-cat by nature has to be burned pretty hot, so you end up with shorter burn times. Pros and cons? Well, I think with a cat stove you really, really have to have dry, seasoned wood. You could probably get by with a little wetter wood in a non-cat stove. Also, a cat will eventually need to be replaced (every 6-10 years if you don't burn junk wood, trash, etc.). But with a non-cat you'll have to replace the baffle system at some point. Some people say a cat stove adds a little more complexity, others say it's as simple as flipping a lever.
Read up on the Blaze King and the Woodstock Fireview. I see great owner loyalty with both of these cat stoves here.
Slow1
Minister of Fire
I think you have some good answers.
I'm curious about what it is about the stove in your rental you don't like? I wonder right away if the stove has been treated well - there is a learning curve to any stove and I don't think every renter treats rental units with the respect they deserve so I wonder if the stove there is in decent enough condition to be a fair representation of what you should expect.
Comment on Pagey's wood statement - Both cat and non-cat EPA stoves really need dry wood to burn well. The cat itself can be damaged however if you feed your stove wet wood and then engage the cat before the water has boiled off and thus the firebox temp has stabilized (thermal shock on the cat). I don't think the burn tubes in non-cat stoves care much about this, but if you feed a non-cat less than seasoned wood you won't get up to temp well and in bad cases won't get clean burns.
Main functional difference really is the ability to get longer burn times at lower temperature with the cat stoves. Basically you can even out the burn cycle - you still get a peak burn with a slide down, but the peak can be lower and then a much longer trail off in temp. Non-cats have to burn hotter to get a clean burn so they use the fuel faster. You can still burn hot with the cat - don't get me wrong, but you have the option of slowing it down more.
Also note - there is a second type of non-cat stove out there besides the burn-tube type. This type is the downdraft style - VC calls it the "Everburn" and others have other names for it. This style burns the smoke in the rear of the stove in a chamber as it exits the stove. If you run into one of these be sure and read reviews about them before considering buying one.
I'm curious about what it is about the stove in your rental you don't like? I wonder right away if the stove has been treated well - there is a learning curve to any stove and I don't think every renter treats rental units with the respect they deserve so I wonder if the stove there is in decent enough condition to be a fair representation of what you should expect.
Comment on Pagey's wood statement - Both cat and non-cat EPA stoves really need dry wood to burn well. The cat itself can be damaged however if you feed your stove wet wood and then engage the cat before the water has boiled off and thus the firebox temp has stabilized (thermal shock on the cat). I don't think the burn tubes in non-cat stoves care much about this, but if you feed a non-cat less than seasoned wood you won't get up to temp well and in bad cases won't get clean burns.
Main functional difference really is the ability to get longer burn times at lower temperature with the cat stoves. Basically you can even out the burn cycle - you still get a peak burn with a slide down, but the peak can be lower and then a much longer trail off in temp. Non-cats have to burn hotter to get a clean burn so they use the fuel faster. You can still burn hot with the cat - don't get me wrong, but you have the option of slowing it down more.
Also note - there is a second type of non-cat stove out there besides the burn-tube type. This type is the downdraft style - VC calls it the "Everburn" and others have other names for it. This style burns the smoke in the rear of the stove in a chamber as it exits the stove. If you run into one of these be sure and read reviews about them before considering buying one.
greythorn3
Minister of Fire
For some reason both places that sell wood stoves here in alaska, say to stay away from cat stoves... i dont understand it! they even sell cat stoves, but recomend NON-CAT ones they sell! i liked the blazeking ultra and the sales man steered me away from that because it was a cat stove.. same with the lopi dealer.. he was not interested in selling cat stoves.. he has them on his show room floor though.
greythorn3 said:
That's not only in Alaska, I see it here in Michigan too. EVERY dealer I visited steered me away from a CAT stove and some even said CAT stoves wouldn't even be available for much longer?? I can't say I understood it either but I wasn't going to argue with the guys since I wasn't looking for a CAT. If my wife liked the look of the fireview I would've given in a better look.
I've asked this before but never received an answer, does anyone know the % of CAT vs. NON-CAT stoves sold??
spirilis
Minister of Fire
rdust said:
FWIW, I called a local dealer around here with a random question (asking if they had an external add-on cat for older stoves) and they stated they didn't, I asked why and they said there's no demand--plus newer non-cat stoves are "way, way more efficient" than older cat technology.
greythorn3
Minister of Fire
i really wanna save up and get that blaze king ultra cat stove for 2800$ at my dealer but my dealer and other dealers around make me scared to try a cat, i just dont understand it. i went camping and the cabin i rented had a duchwest cat stove in it, it seemed to work good, as i couldnt get the temp below 90 deg F even with all the windows and door open at -20 F
Ray
Ray
Backwoods Savage
Minister of Fire
Methinks that most dealers or sales people simply do not understand a cat stove. That is why they recommend the non-cat.
firefighterjake
Minister of Fire
I think Pagey's reply (with an assist from Slow1) pretty much summarizes the pros- and cons- without favoring one tech type over the other.
I do know that I personally was steered away from the cat stoves based largely on a friend's experience with a Vermont Castings cat stove back in the late 1980s (of course this was obviously when cat stoves were in their infancy) . . . but after having read many reviews here from real users I would consider either a cat or non-cat stove . . . keeping in mind that both types have some pros- and cons- to consider.
I do know that I personally was steered away from the cat stoves based largely on a friend's experience with a Vermont Castings cat stove back in the late 1980s (of course this was obviously when cat stoves were in their infancy) . . . but after having read many reviews here from real users I would consider either a cat or non-cat stove . . . keeping in mind that both types have some pros- and cons- to consider.
Slow1, the stove at my rental is in good shape. Actually I am starting to figure it out alot better the more I use it, but the thing I dont like about it is that the knob used to open and close the air flow to the cat doesnt seal up when closed. So the cat is open to air all the time, more so if you un-screw it of course, but its quality is just not there. As for the rest of the stove it works pretty well and does have a pretty good burn time.
So my question after hearing all of the posts, is why wouldnt more people use a Cat stove is they promote longer burn times overall? Since a non-cat stove needs a higher temp to run efficiently it seems like a cat-stove would give off a more even heat that wouldnt run you out of the room? Do they overall use less wood if all variables were the same? Maybe I am not catching on to this as quick, but im trying. Thanks everyone
So my question after hearing all of the posts, is why wouldnt more people use a Cat stove is they promote longer burn times overall? Since a non-cat stove needs a higher temp to run efficiently it seems like a cat-stove would give off a more even heat that wouldnt run you out of the room? Do they overall use less wood if all variables were the same? Maybe I am not catching on to this as quick, but im trying. Thanks everyone
Lots of articles and posts here on this question. There have been some successes with cat stove design and some failures. Generally when a good design is working right, it can heat well. As for non-cat heaters, they are by far the majority of stove installations. We have a big non-cat stove in our house in a mild climate. Yet the stove has never taken the living room above 75. Part of that is the stove design, the other part is how you burn it. You can have a Ferrari, but that doesn't mean you can put the gas to the floor on most streets. With a woodstove half of the heating output is in the feeding of the stove and regulation of the fire's air supply. Less fuel and/or air in = less heat out.
Have you read Craig's article on stoves? It should be helpful in answering some of these questions.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/choosing_and_using_wstove
Have you read Craig's article on stoves? It should be helpful in answering some of these questions.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/choosing_and_using_wstove
Slow1
Minister of Fire
At this point about the downsides of a well designed cat stove that I am aware of are the following -
- Slightly more complex to operate (one more lever to pull and you have to pay attention to when to do it)
- Wet wood will more quickly actually damage your stove - cat can be damaged. VS non-cat will more likely just not burn well or you will tend to overfire
- Periodic maintenance is different and will require replacing the cat. You do have to clean the cat every cord or so in the Fireview for example.
- Fire is not the same on low burn. I have not operated yet on a high burn so I don't actually know how it looks but have heard it is pretty nice, however on low and slow the fire looks about like it is either in coaling stage or burned out with the cat stove. We've all seen the "depths of hell" images of jets shooting out of the tubes of a good non-cat stove so that is something to consider.
I'm sure there are others too because there are certainly other differences and what is good or bad is a matter of opinion in many cases...
I still believe that the benefits far outweigh any downsides, but I put a high value on control and long steady burns.
- Slightly more complex to operate (one more lever to pull and you have to pay attention to when to do it)
- Wet wood will more quickly actually damage your stove - cat can be damaged. VS non-cat will more likely just not burn well or you will tend to overfire
- Periodic maintenance is different and will require replacing the cat. You do have to clean the cat every cord or so in the Fireview for example.
- Fire is not the same on low burn. I have not operated yet on a high burn so I don't actually know how it looks but have heard it is pretty nice, however on low and slow the fire looks about like it is either in coaling stage or burned out with the cat stove. We've all seen the "depths of hell" images of jets shooting out of the tubes of a good non-cat stove so that is something to consider.
I'm sure there are others too because there are certainly other differences and what is good or bad is a matter of opinion in many cases...
I still believe that the benefits far outweigh any downsides, but I put a high value on control and long steady burns.
Thanks guys for the information. I am going to look at that article and im sure it will bring up some more questions.
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