Cat vs Noncat

[imacheezhead]

I have the same stove as you and the glass stays somewhat clean but never really clean.. The new stoves have the air wash over the glass so that helps alot.. Dry wood makes a big difference keeping the glass cleaner.. Like you my stove has needed hardly any parts just 2 cats plus the baffle under the cat.. My shaker grates are shot but I never use them so why bother? Every time I think about a newer stove someone here will say what for yours works well and never needs anything.. Hard to argue with that sort of thinking…

Ray,

Since you have the same stove I do, I'm curious as to how you deal with the air dampers once your fire is established and the cat is up to temperature. I close everything down tight except for the cat air supply. Ever since I overhauled the stove and re-cemented all the joints it's very air tight. Obviously some air must still be getting in there otherwise the fire would go out! To me the shaker grates are very important. If I let the ash drawer fill with ashes I have a hard time maintaining a decent fire. Depending on the type of wood I burn I may clean out the ash drawer every 4-5 days or so. When I restock the stove I will sometimes leave the ash door open, shake down the ashes and let the fire build with the bypass damper closed. This to me is the best way to get the cat up to temperature before I close the ash door again. I found that if the fire is allowed to burn with too much draft for too long it will destroy the shaker grates as well as the cat too. Since I have been controlling my fire using the technique I explained, the grates have been doing just fine for over 10 years now.

Just for a little trivia. I was somewhat taken aback when I brought the stove home and noticed "made in China" stamped on the crate. I called the dealer about this little factoid and they explained to me that the reason is because there are hardly any cast iron foundries in the US anymore so VC moved their operations to China. I'm usually NOT a fan of anything made in China, (except dishes), but I'll have to admit that this stove has been relatively trouble free.

I hear ya on that when you have it cranked full throttle it is to much for the cat to handle and you’ll see some smoke. soon as i crank down below three there's nothing.

Some of you are saying that you control the draft by numbers. Are some stoves manufactured using incremental draft settings?

Thanks for all the information! This is great!!

Jim

 

[ecocavalier02]

Some of you are saying that you control the draft by numbers. Are some stoves manufactured using incremental draft settings?

Thanks for all the information! This is great!!

Jim[/quote]

Yeah its just a turn dial on mine numbered 1 through 3.5 1 being the lowest it controls the draft and best of all control just what kind of heat you want out of it.

 

[raybonz]

I have the same stove as you and the glass stays somewhat clean but never really clean.. The new stoves have the air wash over the glass so that helps alot.. Dry wood makes a big difference keeping the glass cleaner.. Like you my stove has needed hardly any parts just 2 cats plus the baffle under the cat.. My shaker grates are shot but I never use them so why bother? Every time I think about a newer stove someone here will say what for yours works well and never needs anything.. Hard to argue with that sort of thinking…

Ray,

Since you have the same stove I do, I'm curious as to how you deal with the air dampers once your fire is established and the cat is up to temperature. I close everything down tight except for the cat air supply. Ever since I overhauled the stove and re-cemented all the joints it's very air tight. Obviously some air must still be getting in there otherwise the fire would go out! To me the shaker grates are very important. If I let the ash drawer fill with ashes I have a hard time maintaining a decent fire. Depending on the type of wood I burn I may clean out the ash drawer every 4-5 days or so. When I restock the stove I will sometimes leave the ash door open, shake down the ashes and let the fire build with the bypass damper closed. This to me is the best way to get the cat up to temperature before I close the ash door again. I found that if the fire is allowed to burn with too much draft for too long it will destroy the shaker grates as well as the cat too. Since I have been controlling my fire using the technique I explained, the grates have been doing just fine for over 10 years now.

Just for a little trivia. I was somewhat taken aback when I brought the stove home and noticed "made in China" stamped on the crate. I called the dealer about this little factoid and they explained to me that the reason is because there are hardly any cast iron foundries in the US anymore so VC moved their operations to China. I'm usually NOT a fan of anything made in China, (except dishes), but I'll have to admit that this stove has been relatively trouble free.

I hear ya on that when you have it cranked full throttle it is to much for the cat to handle and you’ll see some smoke. soon as i crank down below three there's nothing.

Some of you are saying that you control the draft by numbers. Are some stoves manufactured using incremental draft settings?

Thanks for all the information! This is great!!

Jim

Hi Jim,

Like I mentioned I leave the ashbin full and never use the air damper under the fire (with the ashbin full no air would get in anyways). How I set my stove is I use the damper on the side door which I load the stove with too and give a pretty good draft until the fire is going well.. I leave the cat air damper closed and the blower off especially on a cold fire start .. Once the stove has warmed up I leave the side door damper open so the air space between the dial and the stove is between 1/8" and 3/16" and wait until the cat is going good until I reduce my air.. It sounds like you have a very strong draft if your stove is running with the side damper closed off... If this is so have you tried reducing the draft with a stovepipe damper? I have never rebuilt the stove and I am sure there are some air leaks but it runs fine and there is no smoke so it isn't a concern.. With underfire air you're much more prone to overfiring and/or cat cracking.. I have replaced my cat 2 times in the 22 yrs we have had this stove not counting the original cat that came with the stove..
I thought about resealing the stove but couldn't get the top off the stove and decided that it ran ok so I left well enough alone.. How did you manage to take the stove apart without breaking it?

Yes mine was made in Taiwan as well and there is no way of knowing until you uncrate it.. But 22 yrs. of service with hardly any parts is a good track record.. I think the new ones are made in USA and the Dutchwest 2461 is similar to these stoves and seem to be pretty durable too.. There is some refractory material in the 2461 but not in an area likely to get damaged..

Ray

 

[REF1]

Having owned cat and non cat stoves, and now one EPA my experience has been cats are much easier to use/control and a much cleaner burn cycle and chimney flue. As far as heat output I would say they are the same.

 

[grommal]

Having owned cat and non cat stoves, and now one EPA my experience has been cats are much easier to use/control and a much cleaner burn cycle and chimney flue. As far as heat output I would say they are the same.

Having owned one each cat and noncat, both EPA, my experience is exactly the opposite, so it's pretty tough to generalize.

I think it's not so much a cat vs. noncat thing as it is a comparison of two particular stoves in a particular installation. Even with my bad experience with the VC cat, I would not hesitate to buy a cat stove from Woodstock or BK.

 

[r_d_gard]

Jim,

If your glass is black then your wood is too wet.

Ray

VC 2550

 

[SolarAndWood]

Even with my bad experience with the VC cat, I would not hesitate to buy a cat stove from Woodstock or BK.

Me too but I had to be brainwashed by the cult before I went through with it.

 

[imacheezhead]

Like I mentioned I leave the ashbin full and never use the air damper under the fire (with the ashbin full no air would get in anyways).

I would think you will have to get the ashes out someday or else there won't be any room for the wood. The ash drawer and shaker grates was a strong selling point for me. I can clean out almost all of the ashes without disturbing the fire. When I look at some wood-burners out there and some don't have ash drawers I go "Hasta la vista, baby"!

If your glass is black then your wood is too wet.

My wood is absolutely dry! I usually let it season for 2 or more years, UNCOVERED. I then bring the wood in under a patio roof sometime in September so it has plenty of time to dry before burning. The wood I'm burning today has been under the roof for 5-6 months now. I don't believe in covering firewood because the tarp will prevent the moisture from escaping and it also creates a mouse heaven!

I can make a comparison with a carburetor. You can have a nice clean running engine, but look what happens when you choke it.....you get all kinds of black exhaust. I believe this is an accurate scenario as to why my glass turns black, but at the same time it causes the cat to run hotter because it's getting more fuel to burn.

If my cat temperature is over 500 - 600 deg. all I see is a little steam coming from the chimney, which is good because water vapor is a natural byproduct of combustion.

I thought about resealing the stove but couldn’t get the top off the stove and decided that it ran ok so I left well enough alone.. How did you manage to take the stove apart without breaking it?

It actually wasn't that bad. There are 4 bolts that hold the top down. After removing them I tapped the top upwards with a wooden mallet and it soon popped free. After I got all the sections apart I cleaned them with a wire brush in my hand drill, (wear goggles), paying particular attention to the joint channels and making sure all traces of old cement was removed. I then cemented the joints as I reassembled it. Naturally I also replaced all of the rope. The stuff I used was all made by Rutland. BTW the shaker grates can be replaced without disassembling the stove.

It was a very satisfying job that took a couple of days. You can probably do it faster without the golden ambrosia but its a lot more enjoyable with it! :roll:

Jim

 

[REF1]

Grommal, I can't imagine how a Cat can leave your flue messy, if your experience was opposite mine.

In my previous case I was able to compare 4 stoves in the same installation. Actually 5, but one was a replacement stove, same model. Plus another stove 25' away in another part of the structure. I would have liked to be able to compare this EPA Homestead in that installation.

 

[raybonz]

Like I mentioned I leave the ashbin full and never use the air damper under the fire (with the ashbin full no air would get in anyways).

I would think you will have to get the ashes out someday or else there won't be any room for the wood. The ash drawer and shaker grates was a strong selling point for me. I can clean out almost all of the ashes without disturbing the fire. When I look at some wood-burners out there and some don't have ash drawers I go "Hasta la vista, baby"!

If your glass is black then your wood is too wet.

My wood is absolutely dry! I usually let it season for 2 or more years, UNCOVERED. I then bring the wood in under a patio roof sometime in September so it has plenty of time to dry before burning. The wood I'm burning today has been under the roof for 5-6 months now. I don't believe in covering firewood because the tarp will prevent the moisture from escaping and it also creates a mouse heaven!

I can make a comparison with a carburetor. You can have a nice clean running engine, but look what happens when you choke it.....you get all kinds of black exhaust. I believe this is an accurate scenario as to why my glass turns black, but at the same time it causes the cat to run hotter because it's getting more fuel to burn.

If my cat temperature is over 500 - 600 deg. all I see is a little steam coming from the chimney, which is good because water vapor is a natural byproduct of combustion.

I thought about resealing the stove but couldn’t get the top off the stove and decided that it ran ok so I left well enough alone.. How did you manage to take the stove apart without breaking it?

It actually wasn't that bad. There are 4 bolts that hold the top down. After removing them I tapped the top upwards with a wooden mallet and it soon popped free. After I got all the sections apart I cleaned them with a wire brush in my hand drill, (wear goggles), paying particular attention to the joint channels and making sure all traces of old cement was removed. I then cemented the joints as I reassembled it. Naturally I also replaced all of the rope. The stuff I used was all made by Rutland. BTW the shaker grates can be replaced without disassembling the stove.

It was a very satisfying job that took a couple of days. You can probably do it faster without the golden ambrosia but its a lot more enjoyable with it! :roll:

Jim

Hey Jim.
I checked my shaker grates today and they are still functional! The angle iron between them is bowed up a bit but doesn't seem to be a problem.. I will try to take the top off again sometime to reseal the seams.. BTW I onlky leave an inch of ash in the bottom of the stove so it isn't a problem I think you misunderstood me on that.. One thing I haven't been able to do is remove the cast iron flue connector on the stove.. I think I may have gotten stove cement on the bolt threads on the phillips head bolts when i installed it way back.. I would love to get this off so I can replace the rope gasket for the bypass damper...

Ray

 

[grommal]

Grommal, I can't imagine how a Cat can leave your flue messy, if your experience was opposite mine.

In my previous case I was able to compare 4 stoves in the same installation. Actually 5, but one was a replacement stove, same model. Plus another stove 25' away in another part of the structure. I would have liked to be able to compare this EPA Homestead in that installation.

Inability to engage the cat sometimes. The stove had such a backpuffing problem with the cat engaged that on some days we had to run it with the bypass open and the primary air choked back so it wouldn't run away. One of those days was about a months worth of creosote with either cat engaged or a modern noncat.

 

[imacheezhead]

Hey Jim.
I checked my shaker grates today and they are still functional! The angle iron between them is bowed up a bit but doesn’t seem to be a problem.. I will try to take the top off again sometime to reseal the seams.. BTW I onlky leave an inch of ash in the bottom of the stove so it isn’t a problem I think you misunderstood me on that.. One thing I haven’t been able to do is remove the cast iron flue connector on the stove.. I think I may have gotten stove cement on the bolt threads on the phillips head bolts when i installed it way back.. I would love to get this off so I can replace the rope gasket for the bypass damper…

Ray

I always found it odd that the Shaker grates would bow up instead of down. It's as if they are defying the law of gravity. If the grates are bowed, that probably means that the stove was repeatedly over-fired with the lower dampers or ash door open. I had the same problem only it got so bad that the grates cracked and I had to replace them. I've been careful about that ever since and so far the grates look great. No pun intended!

Just for giggles I tried to loosen one of those screws and it broke free easily so maybe you did get some cement on the threads.

Jim

 

[raybonz]

Hey Jim.
I checked my shaker grates today and they are still functional! The angle iron between them is bowed up a bit but doesn’t seem to be a problem.. I will try to take the top off again sometime to reseal the seams.. BTW I onlky leave an inch of ash in the bottom of the stove so it isn’t a problem I think you misunderstood me on that.. One thing I haven’t been able to do is remove the cast iron flue connector on the stove.. I think I may have gotten stove cement on the bolt threads on the phillips head bolts when i installed it way back.. I would love to get this off so I can replace the rope gasket for the bypass damper…

Ray

I always found it odd that the Shaker grates would bow up instead of down. It's as if they are defying the law of gravity. If the grates are bowed, that probably means that the stove was repeatedly over-fired with the lower dampers or ash door open. I had the same problem only it got so bad that the grates cracked and I had to replace them. I've been careful about that ever since and so far the grates look great. No pun intended!

Just for giggles I tried to loosen one of those screws and it broke free easily so maybe you did get some cement on the threads.

Jim

Jim actually it's the fixed grate that's bowed up on mine.. The shaker grates look fine still and nothing is cracked including the fixed center grate..This part is still available for under $50.00 but it isn't causing a problem so I may just live with it.. Here is a link to a place that has lots of parts for our stoves:

http://www.woodmanspartsplus.com/68/catalogs/Wood-and-Coal-Stove-Manufacturers-Cross-Reference.html

So far that is the most comprehensive of the sites that I've found.. I do have other links too if you need them..

Ray

 

[imacheezhead]

Ray,
How is the stove since you cleaned it out? BTW thanks for the link!

Jim

 

[raybonz]

Ray,
How is the stove since you cleaned it out? BTW thanks for the link!

Jim

Hi Jim,
You're welcome I have a few other links if you need them.. I find it much easier to start a fire with the bottom air and it heats up much quicker too but much messier cleaning the ashpan.. Emptied it out tonight as a matter of fact.. I will need to replace the fixed grate as I noticed it is cracked too..

Ray