Hello, I'm looking for some opions for a new construction chimney. I am debating on what to do for a new chimney. Here is the specs. The house is gonig to be two stories with a 10/12 roof. The chimney will exit on a back wall, so it will have to be quite tall to draft properly. The house will have a chase for a two flue chimeny in it. I will have a Mansfield on the first floor for one flue, and an oil burner with a boilermate for hot water in the basement. Soooo, the choices are to have a masonary chimeny with two flues, or powervent the boiler and run an excell chimney trough the chase. I have quotes for both and they are within $500 of each other. One question that I am wondering about is the efficiency of the boiler powervented vs. the chimney. I do prefer the asthetics of the brick since I will have about 10' exposed through the roof. Thanks for any comments!
Chimeney options, opinions?
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ms360 said:
If new construction is there anyway to keep the chimney in the interior of the house? It will work sooo much better if you can. And you will get nice mass heat storage too.
Rhone
Minister of Fire
- Nov 21, 2005
- 827
I agree with BeGreen, putting the chimney on the exterior of your house is a bad, bad idea. It can cause The Evil Chimney.
If I were building a house, I'd have a masonry chimney running up the center of my house and I'm a fan of a sunken area for the stove/insert. I've been studying the dynamics of my house and why the heat travels so well. I think some is because I have an insert which forces all the air in my house to go through it once about every hour, the other my insert is in a sunken living area that's 2-3' below the main floor. It acts like a cold dump. The coldest air in the house wants to naturally collect in the lowest spot where my insert sucks it up and spits it out at 150F-175F and whips to the extremeties of my house and it's replaced by the coldest air wanting to go to the lowest part where my insert repeats the cycle. So, for heat dynamics I think a sunken area works real nice for stove/insert, also a central location. The problem with sunken areas is the roof in your basement is 2-3 feet lower than the rest and potentially unuseable for anything other than storage. The area below my sunken living room has a ceiling that's about 4' above the floor. We use it for storage. I'd reconfigure to put the chimney inside the house.
If I were building a house, I'd have a masonry chimney running up the center of my house and I'm a fan of a sunken area for the stove/insert. I've been studying the dynamics of my house and why the heat travels so well. I think some is because I have an insert which forces all the air in my house to go through it once about every hour, the other my insert is in a sunken living area that's 2-3' below the main floor. It acts like a cold dump. The coldest air in the house wants to naturally collect in the lowest spot where my insert sucks it up and spits it out at 150F-175F and whips to the extremeties of my house and it's replaced by the coldest air wanting to go to the lowest part where my insert repeats the cycle. So, for heat dynamics I think a sunken area works real nice for stove/insert, also a central location. The problem with sunken areas is the roof in your basement is 2-3 feet lower than the rest and potentially unuseable for anything other than storage. The area below my sunken living room has a ceiling that's about 4' above the floor. We use it for storage. I'd reconfigure to put the chimney inside the house.
My house is very evenly heated by the woodstove but it's more conventional. It does show what stove placement can do. Before it was located towards one end of the house in the kitchen entry. It did a good job of heating our open floorplan except the bathroom, around the corner stayed cool and the upstairs was about 5 degrees cooler than downstairs, but I liked that for sleeping. Now the new stove is located in a corner of the livingroom. I was at first a little bummed because the stove didn't seem to be heating the house as well. But after getting a nice accurate digital thermometer, I have found that the heat is there, it's just much more even throughout the house. Upstairs is now within a degree or two of downstairs. And the far end away from the stove (kitchen pantry) is also within a degree or two. My wife remarked yesterday how much warmer she feels, even when going to bed. So I just toss off the quilt and sleep with less covers.
Rhone
Minister of Fire
- Nov 21, 2005
- 827
That's good news.
I'd probably go with a stainless chase. If I remember when I was looking for a high efficiency boiler, I couldn't get the condensing type because my flue was masonry. Condensing biolers produce corrosive condensate and must have stainless liners to handle it (and their liners will eventually need replacing). Going with masonry you won't be able to use the most efficient boilers unless you line it with stainless (extra $). Also, the Mansfield works best with a 6" flue. If you do that with masonry and damage happens, it would be nice to be able to replace/repair the liner which if it's masonry is going to be a big problem. My vote is stainless & chase system.
I'd probably go with a stainless chase. If I remember when I was looking for a high efficiency boiler, I couldn't get the condensing type because my flue was masonry. Condensing biolers produce corrosive condensate and must have stainless liners to handle it (and their liners will eventually need replacing). Going with masonry you won't be able to use the most efficient boilers unless you line it with stainless (extra $). Also, the Mansfield works best with a 6" flue. If you do that with masonry and damage happens, it would be nice to be able to replace/repair the liner which if it's masonry is going to be a big problem. My vote is stainless & chase system.
BurningIsLove
New Member
I cannot advise you more AGAINST power venting the boiler. Up until recently, I had a power venter for my oil furnace, and it was the most high maintenance, craptacular, P.O.S. I ever had to endure, and I had a good quality one as well. It would always fail during the worst times (this is prior to having my woodstove) which literally left me in the cold. If the powerventer fails, its supposed to have a cutoff switch to scram the boiler automatically to avoid filling your house w/ poisonous fumes, but one time the safety failed and I nearly died from smoke inhalation.
According to the experts I repeatedly spoke to, power venters have an average life of 2-3 years, although they'd probably last longer with wood vs. oil due to corrosion. And they are $500+ to replace every few years. It is so worth the money to have a separate chimney for the boiler, even if it isnt used as often. It's both safer and lower maintenance in the long run.
According to the experts I repeatedly spoke to, power venters have an average life of 2-3 years, although they'd probably last longer with wood vs. oil due to corrosion. And they are $500+ to replace every few years. It is so worth the money to have a separate chimney for the boiler, even if it isnt used as often. It's both safer and lower maintenance in the long run.
Rhone
Minister of Fire
- Nov 21, 2005
- 827
In reponse to wahoowad if I were to build a house, I'd have a sunken living room with a masonry chimney and a stove/insert/fireplace with an uninsulated stainless liner. It will heat the masonry up some, certainly not much I'd do it more for thermal mass inside the building envelope and stone or brick walls/fireplaces are neat looking. It's also something I'm confident I could build myself, I wouldn't go masonry heater because I'm confident I could not do it and I feel money better spent going further on insulation, air sealing, and a solar heating & hot water system instead. I'd also have a window or skylight shine sunlight on it in winter.
I favor Sunken rooms over Cathedral ceilings. Cathedral ceilings trap heat, I see people say ceiling fans help, regardless I can't see it the same as a flat ceiling across the entire house. A sunken living area with a wood stove/insert you're putting the heating appliance where it's coldest. Usually around the stove/insert is a hot area, and can be too hot at times. My sunken living room with the insert going is 2-5F degrees less than the rooms immediately next to it. You get the sunken living room being 72F but the dining room adjacent will be 75-76F. I have no problems staying in the room enjoying the fire. In summer, we use a window AC unit on the other side of our house. That cold air eventually settles in the sunken living room so it's cooler than the surrounding rooms. I'm a fan of them, I also like how you can come to the railing around the edges and look down at your spouse, or see your spouse doing likewise and say "Hey, what are you doing up there!?". It gives a lot of visual and design flexibility. The problems, the basement below will probably have a 2-3' lower ceiling, stairs to climb up/down (mine is 3 steps) and in winter if you're not heating with something in that room... it will be the coldest room on the floor. Best with radiant floor heating to compensate for that. First put the money into insulation, air sealing, make sure the front of your house is south facing with no or minimal north windows, and then if you have money for either a sunken living room or cathedral ceiling... I favor sunken living rooms for the reasons stated, others may find sacrificing a room in the basement & always going up/down steps not worth it and prefer losing attic space instead for cathedral ceilings. Everyone's different.
I favor Sunken rooms over Cathedral ceilings. Cathedral ceilings trap heat, I see people say ceiling fans help, regardless I can't see it the same as a flat ceiling across the entire house. A sunken living area with a wood stove/insert you're putting the heating appliance where it's coldest. Usually around the stove/insert is a hot area, and can be too hot at times. My sunken living room with the insert going is 2-5F degrees less than the rooms immediately next to it. You get the sunken living room being 72F but the dining room adjacent will be 75-76F. I have no problems staying in the room enjoying the fire. In summer, we use a window AC unit on the other side of our house. That cold air eventually settles in the sunken living room so it's cooler than the surrounding rooms. I'm a fan of them, I also like how you can come to the railing around the edges and look down at your spouse, or see your spouse doing likewise and say "Hey, what are you doing up there!?". It gives a lot of visual and design flexibility. The problems, the basement below will probably have a 2-3' lower ceiling, stairs to climb up/down (mine is 3 steps) and in winter if you're not heating with something in that room... it will be the coldest room on the floor. Best with radiant floor heating to compensate for that. First put the money into insulation, air sealing, make sure the front of your house is south facing with no or minimal north windows, and then if you have money for either a sunken living room or cathedral ceiling... I favor sunken living rooms for the reasons stated, others may find sacrificing a room in the basement & always going up/down steps not worth it and prefer losing attic space instead for cathedral ceilings. Everyone's different.
First of all the 8/8 f clay fueI, have 4 of them has lasted me 30 years and plan on quite a few more.
The 8/8 flue inside dementions is not all that large to cause a draft problem Then there is heating the masonry in side it will store heat and release long after the fire has burned down. The Best combination for absorbing heat in a home is a cast iron stove and mansory mass.
You want the optium radiation for the masonry to soak up and store heat, a soap stone stove in this case, would not work as well for heating the bricks or stone. If building new and interior location My vote is masonry Metal chimneys plain don't store heat. Resale value a nice brick front and chiimney is much more attractive than metal
The 8/8 flue inside dementions is not all that large to cause a draft problem Then there is heating the masonry in side it will store heat and release long after the fire has burned down. The Best combination for absorbing heat in a home is a cast iron stove and mansory mass.
You want the optium radiation for the masonry to soak up and store heat, a soap stone stove in this case, would not work as well for heating the bricks or stone. If building new and interior location My vote is masonry Metal chimneys plain don't store heat. Resale value a nice brick front and chiimney is much more attractive than metal
berlin
New Member
go all masonry, you won't regret it, don't even think about power venting if you can in any way avoid it, it's a horrible idea for so many reasons. Metal chimneys are cheap and ugly looking, although that's just my opinion.
BurningIsLove
New Member
the building inspector in my town is lobbying to make power venters illegal for all new construction
Thanks for the info. My first quote for a two flue chimney was more than I was expecting, but a second quote came in right about what I had budgeted for, so money isn't as much of an issue anymore. Powerventing is becoming more popular in Maine on new contruction homes. The people I am getting my home from indicate that over 90% choose that option. I guess it is cheaper up front ($800 vs around abut $3000 for single flue chimney) The qoute I have is for block contruction inside of the chase and new brick when it exits the roof, with the standard 8x8 clay flue. There will be a clean out door in the basement.
BurningIsLove
New Member
Yes....powerventers will definitely be significantly much cheaper up front, but more expensive in the long haul.
I've been in my house for 6 winters, and I've had to replace the powerventer twice (at $1k/pop), almost a third time just as I got the double flued chimney installed, and coountless maintainence visits to whip it into shape. Most likely a wood furnace would last longer since oil exhaust is corrosive and wood isnt. But also consider that power venters require electricity to create an acceptable draft which still wont be as good as a chimney, so that eats away at their economy as well over time.
A good chimney will last a long time with periodic cleanings at a much lower maintenance cost. Sorry for being so religious on this topic, I just dont want to see anyone go through the hell that I did w/ my powerventer.
I've been in my house for 6 winters, and I've had to replace the powerventer twice (at $1k/pop), almost a third time just as I got the double flued chimney installed, and coountless maintainence visits to whip it into shape. Most likely a wood furnace would last longer since oil exhaust is corrosive and wood isnt. But also consider that power venters require electricity to create an acceptable draft which still wont be as good as a chimney, so that eats away at their economy as well over time.
A good chimney will last a long time with periodic cleanings at a much lower maintenance cost. Sorry for being so religious on this topic, I just dont want to see anyone go through the hell that I did w/ my powerventer.
My 3900 sq foot Maine 1850's Federal has one of the two chimneys unsupported. The base of the chimney is set on the 2 layers of wood flooring and that's it. Nothing underneath! This is the second one of these unsupported chimneys that I been familar with. In addition, the 1825 cape I grew up in had 2 fireplaces and one stove connection configuration supported by a wood beam truss in the dirt basement. I don't know what any of the builders were thinking!
Anyway, I need to take the unsupported chimney down and I hope to do this myself with help. It currently has an 8"x8" interior and is 34 feet high approx and straight. But I would like another chimney built with the proper support, clean-out doors and possibly 2 flues. Does anyone have prices of what their new rebuilt chimney's cost?
I have a friend who works on multi-million dollar houses and lays high end tile, works with mortars, etc, so he could help mix the mortar properly.
Does anyone have experience building a new chimney with a brick top, what type of bricks, any good books, websites, etc?
Thanks!
Anyway, I need to take the unsupported chimney down and I hope to do this myself with help. It currently has an 8"x8" interior and is 34 feet high approx and straight. But I would like another chimney built with the proper support, clean-out doors and possibly 2 flues. Does anyone have prices of what their new rebuilt chimney's cost?
I have a friend who works on multi-million dollar houses and lays high end tile, works with mortars, etc, so he could help mix the mortar properly.
Does anyone have experience building a new chimney with a brick top, what type of bricks, any good books, websites, etc?
Thanks!
It has had about 9 heavy duty steel supports added under the entire house, so it isn't going anywhere! Sorry about not saying that!
But the floor in that room bounces and slopes quite a bit. That chimney has to go and it isn't very well built either!
But the floor in that room bounces and slopes quite a bit. That chimney has to go and it isn't very well built either!
Sorry, the unsupported chimney is not lined at all. But I've never used it. But for house 3900 sq feet here in Maine, I need another chimney.
I am also tearing out exterior walls and super insulating with R40+ of solid foam board! I also am trying to sound proof, as traffic is very noisy outside.
I am also tearing out exterior walls and super insulating with R40+ of solid foam board! I also am trying to sound proof, as traffic is very noisy outside.
I might try and save the chimney, jack up the floor, build a foundation for it in the basement and line it. But the one section which is exposed is really bad and that's compared to my other chimney! But it does have a nice brick exterior above the roof level! So I need to tear out the material around the chimney in the 2nd floor and see what it looks like and look at it very closely in the attic.
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