Chimney liner only installed in flue?

[Lighting Up]

Ok, did you get 26' of liner, or is it short since he stopped at the damper area of the fireplace?
Didn't point as was discussed and quoted.
Did you get the new crown on top?
Sorry, but what I see is the guy quoted a list of things, which he didn't just miss one thing, but a couple major things, and then shorted the liner.
So he cut the quote down by $290.00, and skipped the pointing, the crown and running the full liner? And you will have to pay for yet another reline. This crap pisses me off.
I would tell him to come get his chitty work, and take it out, and you'll reline the damn thing yourself or find a competent installer. Then you can negotiate after that, cause he ain't going to be wanting to take it out.
You would not need anything additional other than the adapter and a block off plate had he run the liner the way it should have been run. Now your going to shell out cash to finish it from where he ended to the stove, and it will still prolly draft like crap cause of the 10".
10" is useless for any stove or insert. So your going to have to reline it anyway, again! 10" makes no damn sense.
AND, he would not have to have knocked the old clay lining out at all had he run the right size in the first place. Wasted labor and time there. Pay him for his cost on the materials of his crap install, and he can eat the labor! Then either find someone that knows what the hell they are doing, or reline yourself.
Sorry man, I am on your side here, and pissed off myself! This is why I'll drive hours to help someone for nothing, rather than read about them getting jacked by some hack!
Sure would be nice if other members would step the f up and help others in their area out. Less of this crap would happen, and everyone wins.
There are doers, and there are talkers. I know which one I am.

You've got to love the passion from this guy!...well said...but move away from that Nuke plant we need you around us longer.
md

 

[Litespeed]

Ok, did you get 26' of liner, or is it short since he stopped at the damper area of the fireplace?
Didn't point as was discussed and quoted.

He quoted 26 linear feet of tuckpoint on the masonry.
The quote does not list liner diameter or length of liner. I've learned my lesson here.

Did you get the new crown on top?

Negative, he has to removed what he has done to place a crown. Stated it was too cold/wet to install. The masonry work and crown were why I went with a supposed pro. I could easily insert the liner, but I do not have the tools to do masonry efficiently, but I have done patch jobs (go through grinder disks like crazy, dust everywhere, as compared with the dandy tools the masonry pro possess.)

The gentlemen just seemed to pick and choose....

Sorry, but what I see is the guy quoted a list of things, which he didn't just miss one thing, but a couple major things, and then shorted the liner.
So he cut the quote down by $290.00, and skipped the pointing, the crown and running the full liner? And you will have to pay for yet another reline. This crap pisses me off.

Indeed, I will have one hell of a lined flue when I have to finish the job correctly.

I would tell him to come get his chitty work, and take it out, and you'll reline the damn thing yourself or find a competent installer. Then you can negotiate after that, cause he ain't going to be wanting to take it out.
You would not need anything additional other than the adapter and a block off plate had he run the liner the way it should have been run. Now your going to shell out cash to finish it from where he ended to the stove, and it will still prolly draft like crap cause of the 10".

I will have to insert a full run inside of the 10 inch. Enough stainless to build a car. It drafts poorly right now, I doubt the Buck square to round adapter and connection 8-10 inch would draft any better. I have to basically leave the damper full open (not that the square output Buck is great to begin with).

10" is useless for any stove or insert. So your going to have to reline it anyway, again! 10" makes no damn sense.
AND, he would not have to have knocked the old clay lining out at all had he run the right size in the first place. Wasted labor and time there.

Indeed, and this removal of the terracotta is not listed anywhere. Why? I've asked many times, I plan to find out tomorrow. I'm perplexed as i'm sure the 10in was a special order.

Pay him for his cost on the materials of his crap install, and he can eat the labor! Then either find someone that knows what the hell they are doing, or reline yourself.
Sorry man, I am on your side here, and pissed off myself! This is why I'll drive hours to help someone for nothing, rather than read about them getting jacked by some hack!
Sure would be nice if other members would step the f up and help others in their area out. Less of this crap would happen, and everyone wins.
There are doers, and there are talkers. I know which one I am.

I intend to discuss the labor costs, because I see about 1000 max in materials here. The terracotta removal was busy work, and even at that, maybe 4 hours labor as the run is straight as an arrow.

I too am a "doer". I just cannot imagine the miscommunication here. Again, my wife and I have left messages with their office and expect to discuss further tomorrow.

Part of the "onus" is on me to get "itemized" estimates. I've learned my lesson! And always be onsite for the work to be performed. The guy changed dates on me, and I was on a business meeting while family was out of town. MISTAKE! Should have stopped, but wanted to have up by Christmas for the family. I would have immediately questioned it once I saw the 10in liner.

But seriously, something is amiss here. My plan is to get other quotes of the work performed, and what should have been done given his bill is most non-desciptive.

I think the plan here is to reduce that overall cost for a job that does not fundamentally meet the customers need, then finish it out on my own. Now I will need to save my pennies for another liner install. I may look into getting a more efficient insert now that I must start over, particularly if there are still rebates for the old beasts.

Thanks,

 

[Litespeed]

The fact that they did the work without payment does say something for the installer. All that needs to be done is have a 8" liner dropped down that 10" liner. If you change stoves you'll be looking at pulling that 8" and putting in a 6". Might be more cost effective to go with the new stove and 6" liner now... sell the 8" stove.

Indeed. All I can get is his home office, not him personally. I want to talk to him first to guage the situation moving forward.

This is the only silver lining is possibly I can come to some resolution on the cost of the job performed.

The $400 extra to connect to a 10in liner is not a solution I'm remotely interested in.

 

[tnwoodburner]

I have been following your situation and may be able to help with a more efficient stove. Sent you an email with the details. Let me know if you are interested.

 

[tnwoodburner]

I have been following your situation and may be able to help with a more efficient stove. Sent you a pm / email with the details. Let me know if you are interested.

 

[Hogwildz]

Lite,
I was not referring to you with my doer & talker comment.
Don't even bother trying to use that 10", it is only going to draft like crap, and bring you more grief., and prolly build creo like crazy.
I have alot going on next summer, moving my woman out here so we can be together and get married etc.
But, if I somehow get some free time, a weekend for sure, I will come down and help you install the 6" liner if you need the help.
I keep asking myself why I do what I do, but situations like yours remind me of just why I do help others. I did mine myself, was a PITA, but I got it done.
Have helped with a donor install, and a few other liners to this point. Keep telling myself, "that is the last one", with life getting shorter and no time and money to do what I have to do around here, I keep telling myself I can't afford to give that time and added expense up. But, I can't just sit and watch and not help if I can. To me, that is just as much a part of this site as any other help.
I am not looking to look like a good guy, nor am I seeking praise. I just want to give back whatever I can., and help assure another is having a safe enjoyable time with wood burning.
It would be nice if others in their state, would step up and help out other burning brethren, but no one can make another help folks, its a choice to make, and then stick to one's word once it is given. I will say a few fallen brothers have had help, one sticks to mind above all, and wish I could have been to help with that, but I was not sadly.

As far as the top cap on the masonry. You can always forgo the cement cap, and have a sheet metal shop make a nice S.S. one to go over top and be done with it. I was the sheetmetal man for the different companies I was roofing for, and used to make all kinds of custom copper, and lead coated copper boxes, caps, metal work etc. It can be done, and look great! Even a nice copper one would look great also.

Anyways, if you don't get this resolved soon, and it runs into the summer, let me know, I will do my best to make a trip down and help out. At least the 6" should go down that 10" fairly easily....I hope.
Curious to see what the installer will do next.

 

[Litespeed]

Lite,
I was not referring to you with my doer & talker comment.

No offense taken. Understand completely.

Don't even bother trying to use that 10", it is only going to draft like crap, and bring you more grief., and prolly build creo like crazy.

It works, but ave to keep the drafts open and the damper will not go move than half or kills it.

I have alot going on next summer, moving my woman out here so we can be together and get married etc.
But, if I somehow get some free time, a weekend for sure, I will come down and help you install the 6" liner if you need the help.
I keep asking myself why I do what I do, but situations like yours remind me of just why I do help others. I did mine myself, was a PITA, but I got it done.
Have helped with a donor install, and a few other liners to this point. Keep telling myself, "that is the last one", with life getting shorter and no time and money to do what I have to do around here, I keep telling myself I can't afford to give that time and added expense up. But, I can't just sit and watch and not help if I can. To me, that is just as much a part of this site as any other help.
I am not looking to look like a good guy, nor am I seeking praise. I just want to give back whatever I can., and help assure another is having a safe enjoyable time with wood burning.
It would be nice if others in their state, would step up and help out other burning brethren, but no one can make another help folks, its a choice to make, and then stick to one's word once it is given. I will say a few fallen brothers have had help, one sticks to mind above all, and wish I could have been to help with that, but I was not sadly.

Understand, we are all very busy. You are a credit to this site. I'll get it done once spring nears. May yank out that slammer, find a freestanding that will fit, insulated it properly, and run it from there.
This Buck eats wood like a beast. I have tons, but it is not very efficient (sure the flue is not helping). Not sure I could clean the brick though. As pictures show, it is fairly nasty back there.

As far as the top cap on the masonry. You can always forgo the cement cap, and have a sheet metal shop make a nice S.S. one to go over top and be done with it. I was the sheetmetal man for the different companies I was roofing for, and used to make all kinds of custom copper, and lead coated copper boxes, caps, metal work etc. It can be done, and look great! Even a nice copper one would look great also.

Concur, I would prefer a SS cap. Function over form in my book! I do not think they look that bad anyhow.

Anyways, if you don't get this resolved soon, and it runs into the summer, let me know, I will do my best to make a trip down and help out. At least the 6" should go down that 10" fairly easily....I hope.
Curious to see what the installer will do next.

I Can surely get the liner in, it is a straight shot, but will need to insulate between the liners.....(I feel sick saying that)....liner(s) plural.....<shakes head>

 

[webby3650]

I hope you get this worked out soon! It would be a total waste of time to try connecting to that 10" liner. Depending on what you choose to do, it would be tempting to remove the 10" to make way for an 8" insulated liner. You could drop an insulated 6" liner down the 10", but an 8" with insulation would be a VERY tight fit, might not go. If the guy would work with you on this, I think (if the 10"is insulated properly)you wouldn't need to insulate the 8"liner, provided it is sealed well at the top. I would think he would have a scrap of 8" liner laying around the shop, offer to buy the adapter and an 8" top plate if he will drop an 8" liner down. I think a reputable business would do that.

 

[woodgeek]

Sounds like the installer is a piece of work.

I still think, depending on the stack height, you could use an insulated 6" liner, and be all set for a future stove... what is the height?

 

[Hogwildz]

I suggest getting a feel for what you want to replace the stove with, if that is the route you plan to go in the near future. And you may most likely need a 6" instead of the 8" for the new stove. If that is the case, don't waste you cash on the 8" and go right for the 6". If the 10" is already insulated, I see not need to insulate the 6" or 8" again. You could stuff some Rockwool around the top between the liners, and the same around the bottom. The one plus in this mess is you won't have much of a block off plate to make at the bottom. Just a ring or suck to cover the gap between the two liners, as it looks like he already has a plate sealing off around the 8"?
When you decide to do it, let me know in advance if you can, and if I can get down to help, I will.

Completely agree on the 6". It will prolly work just fine with the Buck, until you get the new stove.
Oh hell, either way, when you decide to do it, even if soon. Let me know, it is much easier with 2 ppl, trust me.

 

[JeffT]

Ok, did you get 26' of liner, or is it short since he stopped at the damper area of the fireplace?
Didn't point as was discussed and quoted.
Did you get the new crown on top?
Sorry, but what I see is the guy quoted a list of things, which he didn't just miss one thing, but a couple major things, and then shorted the liner.
So he cut the quote down by $290.00, and skipped the pointing, the crown and running the full liner? And you will have to pay for yet another reline. This crap pisses me off.
I would tell him to come get his chitty work, and take it out, and you'll reline the damn thing yourself or find a competent installer. Then you can negotiate after that, cause he ain't going to be wanting to take it out.
You would not need anything additional other than the adapter and a block off plate had he run the liner the way it should have been run. Now your going to shell out cash to finish it from where he ended to the stove, and it will still prolly draft like crap cause of the 10".
10" is useless for any stove or insert. So your going to have to reline it anyway, again! 10" makes no damn sense.
AND, he would not have to have knocked the old clay lining out at all had he run the right size in the first place. Wasted labor and time there. Pay him for his cost on the materials of his crap install, and he can eat the labor! Then either find someone that knows what the hell they are doing, or reline yourself.
Sorry man, I am on your side here, and pissed off myself! This is why I'll drive hours to help someone for nothing, rather than read about them getting jacked by some hack!
Sure would be nice if other members would step the f up and help others in their area out. Less of this crap would happen, and everyone wins.
There are doers, and there are talkers. I know which one I am.

Don't sugarcoat it Hogs,tell us how you really feel.Hell I'd love to help if you need it.I hate a half-ass hack job.

 

[Hogwildz]

One thing I am not known for is sugar coating anything. I call it how I see it, right, wrong or indifferent.
Life is too short to beat around the bush.

 

[Litespeed]

I suggest getting a feel for what you want to replace the stove with, if that is the route you plan to go in the near future. And you may most likely need a 6" instead of the 8" for the new stove. If that is the case, don't waste you cash on the 8" and go right for the 6". If the 10" is already insulated, I see not need to insulate the 6" or 8" again. You could stuff some Rockwool around the top between the liners, and the same around the bottom. The one plus in this mess is you won't have much of a block off plate to make at the bottom. Just a ring or suck to cover the gap between the two liners, as it looks like he already has a plate sealing off around the 8"?
When you decide to do it, let me know in advance if you can, and if I can get down to help, I will.

Completely agree on the 6". It will prolly work just fine with the Buck, until you get the new stove.
Oh hell, either way, when you decide to do it, even if soon. Let me know, it is much easier with 2 ppl, trust me.

Well,

Had a conversation with the gentlemen, he stated he was under the impression just to conduct the install to make the flue safe. Right....but I have no legs with this generic piece of quote!

Safe? Pumping creasote like crazy. I then went on to say, this is just a glorified "slammer" install, he did not even know what "slammer" meant. I know i've meantioned that before to them. Told him this is not even a poor man's direct connect, not sure he even understood that.

When he swept the chimney, guy seemed to be knowledgable, but think this gentlemen is certainly "old school" in thinking.

I questioned the 10" install, he stated the size would work fine with that unit, that it is just pulling around the insert trim. Needs more insulation around stove. Told him i'm not satisfied with that.

Told him i've very unhappy with the performance of this stove with the 10in, why did he not direct connect? Asked him could we not reach an agreement on this, possibly slide six inch down to the unit and direct connect with an adapter?

He stated this Buck 27000 stove (crazy square damper) would never work with a 6in liner, 8in at least, or it would just smoke you out. I'm not buying, has anyone connected to a 27000 and what was outcome (hearth search time). I would think it could overfire, but not a smoker. It is a creasote machine right now with the 10in flue, and it could still have chimney fires in the chamber. He did not want to place 8 in if I changed stoves was his reply (I can agree there, but again, this was not discussed).

We have set a time next week for him to come back out and discuss path forward.

I am not pleased! The checkbook is staying closed for the time being.

 

[Hogwildz]

My money is it will draft like a mutha with the 6". And 6" will have you set up for the next stove.
You can always put an damper inline to counter any overdraft/overfire.
Stick to your guns and don't let me sway you.
You are more knowledgeable than he at this point.

 

[mellow]

I did not have a Buck but had Craft insert, very close to same size. I used mine with a 6" liner connected with a rectangle to round adapter and it worked fine.

 

[Litespeed]

My money is it will draft like a mutha with the 6". And 6" will have you set up for the next stove.
You can always put an damper inline to counter any overdraft/overfire.
Stick to your guns and don't let me sway you.
You are more knowledgeable than he at this point.

I think I'm going to demand 6".

He stated that he would put it in, but not to blame him if it did not work. I said if it doesn't, just more of an excuse to get a newer unit.

My money is on having to use the damper to choke the flow.....it has to stay full open right now, and is terribly inefficient. If anything, it would be harder to control is my thinking.

I have many cords of wood to burn, but good grief!

It is obvious this guy has never had a gas dynamics course, or heat transfer/thermodynamics........

I'm going to search to see if any folks here have tried such a setup on an old Buck. I bet many have!

 

[Litespeed]

Come to think of it on the "old school" comment., I believe I now know why he placed a 10in liner.

This guy check measurements of the fireplace opening many times (even called for it to double check). At the time, I was a bit perplexed, but now with his talk of a 6 inch liner not working, I understand his thinking, but it is flawed.

I will ask, but I think he wanted those measurements to build the flue if it was an open install (why I simply don't know). That could be the only reason.

Now, even with the present day ridiculous Buck rectangular flue opening, it is still much smaller than the volume he spec'd if using the fireplace surface area. It will undoubtedly generate creasote as it sits as the flow rate diminishes immediately exiting the flue/damper into the chamber on a slammer, then no better with a 10in flue.

The proper thinking here would be to evaluate the area of the damper/flue opening on the stove, and ensure a similar area for the liner.

Looks to be 3.5 x 14 inches, which is only 49-50 in^2

So, an adapter to 6 in would be 28.3 in^2, which is quite smaller

8 in would be right at 50 in^2, so that does make the argument for 8in. However, I'm like you folks, I do not want to line with 8in, to have to reline in the future.

 

[mellow]

Went back and reread your posts, you say your chimney is only 10ft, most stoves require 15ft counting from the bottom of the stove to the top for good draft.

 

[Litespeed]

Went back and reread your posts, you say your chimney is only 10ft, most stoves require 15ft counting from the bottom of the stove to the top for good draft.

Mellow, thanks for the reply.

The chimney flue is 10 ft (section that was relined), it is around 15ft to the stove bottom.

 

[webby3650]

You can do watever you want here, but I will bet money that if you use a 6" liner, smoke will roll out the door everytime you open it. If you had a 20' plus flue, you would likely get by just fine. This guy should have been more clear on his bid, this is an old school way of doing things, but I assure you it is very common in this area. It's the only way they know. If they are gonna be in this business, they need to get up to speed! I don't wanna sound sideways here, you seem to know exactly what you want, how exactly did this not get conveyed when you met with him the very first time?

 

[Litespeed]

You can do watever you want here, but I will bet money that if you use a 6" liner, smoke will roll out the door everytime you open it. If you had a 20' plus flue, you would likely get by just fine. This guy should have been more clear on his bid, this is an old school way of doing things, but I assure you it is very common in this area. It's the only way they know. If they are gonna be in this business, they need to get up to speed! I don't wanna sound sideways here, you seem to know exactly what you want, how exactly did this not get conveyed when you met with him the very first time?

As i'm finding out.

Looked at the insert, even had him do the chimney sweep and asked for a liner. Guess I should have killed him with details....

At least an 8" would have made sense, but I really believe he was making this assessment on an open fireplace.

Disappointing.

 

[webby3650]

Since the insert was there, you would think the guy would have asked, just to cover his butt. If he thought you just wanted the flue re-lined, he should have tried to talk you into a full 8" re-line. I just think he is non the wiser. Bummer.

 

[nola mike]

Doesn't sound like his install was up to current code anyway . Is he even legally allowed to do what he did ?

 

[ddddddden]

Yeah, 8" would be the correct size for a 3x15" flue, and making a "positive connection" by running 8" pipe from the stove to the first clay flue tile would have been the *minmally* correct install. I doubt that a slammer install is still legal anywhere. Let him sue you, then he can explain to a judge how it's okay for you to run your stove as a slammer 'cause he says so. I wouldn't pay, unless he wants to redo the job according to *your* needs, rather than *his* ideas about preserving use of the fireplace. Aside from all that BS, ~ 95% of new stoves have a 6" flue, so I wouldn't install an 8" pipe unless you know that you want a stove that has an 8" flue. Almost all of the new stoves that are large enough to need an 8" flue are catalytic stoves: Buck 80, Buck 91, and Country Flame BBF inserts, and BK King freestanding stove. Buck 94 is a new non-cat version of the 91. . .dunno if it's any good.

 

[Litespeed]

Doesn't sound like his install was up to current code anyway . Is he even legally allowed to do what he did ?

I'm fairly certain the NFPA 211 has long ruled slammers out for new building codes. "Existing" I believe does not. The question is whether a chimney flue reline, not entire relining constitutes such a change. Not that I wanted to keep the friggin slammer setup!

Believe me, this has been on my mind. It's the engineer in me, cannot help it.