Chimney liner question?

[ecocavalier02]

Comtinuing my research on the blaze king im taking every step to mKe sure my install is done right. I have a 9 by13 with a six liner already in. I think there is a half inch clearance on each side and a bend in the chimney. Pulling the liner out shouldnt be a problem. Just wondering if its harmful to the liner taking t out and then stuffing it in again. Im more sold wrap as the pour seems much more expensive.

 

[michaelryba]

I don't see any issue with removing the liner.
Not sure of your question.."more sold wrap..." Are you talking about insulating your liner? I have the same size tiles & installed an 5.5 in liner with wrapped insulation. It was a tight fit, but do-able. One thought: the liner will probably have a "memory" of the off-set that will make it harder to re-insert into your chimney. Also, you'll need to do some pulling of the liner from the front. Pulling cones can be bought, but I just made one by punching some holes & using some bailing wire (coat hanger).

 

[ecocavalier02]

Yeah. Insulating im talking. Thats the cheaper route. The pour is more expensive. Also my liner is six inches not the 5.5. But i think i can figure it out. I can make something at my shop like one of those cones to have something to really honk it down there

 

[webby3650]

Can the price difference between poured and wrapped insulation really justify the labor involved with removing and reinstalling? What if you damage the liner when you remove it? Then there is only extra cost involved, no savings.

 

[webby3650]

Yeah. Insulating im talking. Thats the cheaper route. The pour is more expensive. Also my liner is six inches not the 5.5. But i think i can figure it out. I can make something at my shop like one of those cones to have something to really honk it down there

Is it a thin or heavy wall liner? Once you get the insulation and the mesh on it, there really isn't much "honking" to do, when it gets hung up, it's hung up. Seems like a really tight fit. Maybe poured would be a better choice.

 

[ecocavalier02]

Thats why i posted the ? Before. Do anything. Just seems like the pour will be a couple hundred more than the wrap. And am just concerned of whats involved if ever remove the liner after poiring the vermiscue or whayever its called. And will have to figude out a way to bblock off a section above the t in my chimney. Could i just stuff fire wool qbove it to keep the pour from xoming down further

 

[ecocavalier02]

What Could i do to block it off?

 

[fire_man]

What Could i do to block it off?

I'm trying to figure this out, too. A sheet metal plate needs to be installed at the bottom of the chimney. But first I was thinking of stuffing rock wool above the metal plate, to the bottom of the clay liner, just to take up some space so I don't need as much vermiculite. I have heard Perlite is better since it does not absorb moisture. I'm not sure how much any of this costs - haven't looked yet.

 

[ecocavalier02]

ThTs my problem from my fireplace i cant even see the clay liner so i have a lot of space to fill alotttt

 

[webby3650]

ThTs my problem from my fireplace i cant even see the clay liner so i have a lot of space to fill alotttt

Are you talking about filling the whole smoke chamber with insulation? We have installed the liner and then sealed between the SS liner and the flue tile with a product called Chamber Tech 2000, this area often can't be reached but we have been able to actually throw this cement into the space to form a seal. www.chambertech2000.com

 

[ecocavalier02]

now your talking even more money. by the time i buy all those materials, it would probably be the same as taking the old liner out and wrapping it and having something go wrong and having to get a ne.w liner. i've already figure for at least 4 to 500 bucks if not more of the pour. then anything else i might need to block it off and all of this other stuff. Maybe i might loose a couple hundred bucks, but the wrap seems easier to me for my setup.If i can find a 1/4 inch wrap i think it wouldnt be to bad. plus i would like to inspect my liner as well just to get a good look at it and make sure everything is golden. i will make one of those cones at the shop and will

 

[ecocavalier02]

well i measured the opening of the clay liner on the top and it measures exactly 7 inches in diameter so with a 1/4 insulation that leaves a quarter on each side for play. Not much. Plus the jog in the chimney. Has anyone done this before in this size. Or my other option would be to insulate the first 10 or 15 feet ? as most of the chimney is internal anyway?? any help would be great thanks

 

[Todd]

If you know your clay tiles are in good shape why not do what I did, stuff rock wool insulation in the 1st couple feet on top between the liner and chimney. It's going to be real tight with a wrap and I doubt it will go back down with that offset and mortar joint excess. Or you could look into breaking out the clay tiles to give you more room.

 

[Wet1]

That's not a lot of room when you're talking about a wrapped liner that's proned to hanging up on everything. Also, 1/4"of insulation isn't much either.

What is the condition of the clay liner/tiles? Any idea what the clearances are to combustibles as the chimney goes through the house? How long is the total length of the liner? How long and large is the larger smoke chamber? The first two questions are the ones you really need to know the answers to before making a decision on how to proceed. The second set of questions might tell you what the most economic method might be for proceeding, pending the answers to the first set of questions. If clearances to combustibles are in question, the tiles are even remotely cracked, or there are areas in the unprotected smoke chamber that might be a concern, the cost of making it safe should become much more irrelevant.

I did a little demolition in a couple spots on my long flue to get a better feel for how my 1935 house was built. What I found was the original (very dry) wood floors butting right up against the small and unprotected smoke chamber (single layer of standard brick), and I'm assuming there are a lot more areas like this as it goes up through three more levels of the house. I only have a 7x7 (ID) tiles, so I chose to fill the entire void from top to bottom with loose perlite. I don't think, in fact I know, I could not have got a wrapped liner down my 35' flue, even if the wrap was only 1/4". In the end I thought the most protection I could get out of this poor situation was filling it. I stuffed the base with ceramic blanket and then poured in about 4" to 6" or so of a perlite mortar mix I made up. I did this for a couple of reasons. This completely sealed the base so I didn't have to worry about the perlite working its way past my block-off plate (or the block-off plate failing in a fire (which would release all the perlite from the flue). The other reason is that it completely stabilized the base of the SS liner for cleaning, which again, I didn't want to risk disturbing/loosing the perlite. If I ever needed to remove the liner, it would be fairly easy to break out the mortar/perlite mix as it's fairly soft with all the perlite I mixed into it.

Sorry about all the rambling on, my point was that I initially assumed my chimney was not a real hazard. As I looked, I found several hints that it was far from safe, and I'm sure there are plenty of unseen areas that were equally (or more) scary as it's totally enclosed as it goes up through four levels of the house. If you're in doubt, you need to insulate every inch as best as you possibly can. I would not assume clearance were left to combustibles!

 

[ecocavalier02]

Yeah def not taking out the clay tiles. Thats why im sayingshould i just do something to the first ten or fifteen. Is iy really worth my time do do all this work. Should i just try the stove without the insulation first. And just try the rockwool and see what happens. Now im real confused. Haha up in yhe air now

 

[ecocavalier02]

my chimney also seems to be in good shape. and is a four feet wide chimney going all the way up. i've never felt the chimney feel hot when i touch it.. dont think its close to any combustibles at all. well im really confused on which route to go. i think i can get up in the chimney enough to block off above the t to keep the pour forom coming past. ill remove the t and the make some sort of steel plate to slide past the liner and then just pour it in. i think thats my final decision. ill have to really reach up there to get it in there. have to figure something out to bracket it in there. or maybe a hose clamp in the piece of metal to hold it in on to the pipe.. does the space on the side of the liner with the half inch on each side going to be a problem? i think it will fill in for the most part. i dont think it will be a big deal.

 

[ecocavalier02]

well i figured i'd take some pictures i guess i can see the clay liner in there i just couldn't see before. To dark. so give me a minute here ill post the pics and tell me what you guys think.

 

[ecocavalier02]

file:///Users/robertrulewicz/Pictures/2009_12_26/IMG_0778.JPG

 

[ecocavalier02]

these are the pics

 

[ecocavalier02]

N e one?

 

[Todd]

I don't see any clay tiles in your pictures. But it looks like no room for a wrap so if you insulate your going to have to pour it in and either stuff insulation around the bottom or build a block off plate. Looks like a real pita getting up in there.

 

[jtp10181]

Ovalize the liner down to 4" OD on the skinny side, then do insulation wrap. It will go down no prob. We did two jobs like this in the past month, both had one offset in the flue.

 

[ecocavalier02]

The clay liner is there its just above the offset. Im not going to oval it as i dont want to risk n e damage. And yes it is a pita to get up there but luckily im skinny enough to get in there. And not but five minutes before i toom the picture i was standing right up i there as ive done many time before.

 

[ecocavalier02]

Also the question about the gap on the small side of the liner it should just fill in For the most part right. ?

 

[jtp10181]

Fill it in with what? If you are not going to insulate properly then don't even bother. For a ceramic blanket you need to get a 1/2" wrap around there all the way and get it down without tearing it to shreds. A 6" liner is going to be like 7-1/2" OD with the insulation on it. Most of the oval flues are 6-3/4 to 7" ID so there is no was in hell it fits. This year we bought an apparatus to help ovalize the liners and it works great, used it twice so far and pretty much paid for itself already.

If you are thinking about a pour in insulation, check with your liner mfg for specs. I think most need 1" all the way around, which would require 1" spacers to be installed on the liner so you can guarantee that spacing to the masonry all the way down the flue.