Chimney questions for wood stove hook-up

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wjburger

New Member
Nov 28, 2008
7
Northeastern, PA
Hello to the forum. My name is Bill, from Northeast, PA in the Poconos. I have read the site from time to time trying to learn about wood stoves, installation and firewood. I have zero experience and previous knowledge other than what I have read. I get conflicting info. from people I know etc. so have stopped asking. There is a host of great info. on this site which is why I am here. I have searched for these answers but there is so much info. I would just like to have my specific concerns addressed, so if you have heard these a hundred times, sorry in advance.

I bought a used wood stove over a year ago to install in my basement. I never did so, but the electric bills are killing me and the time to procrastinate has come to an end, just like the numbers in my bank account come winter. I have most of the class A chimney and will be installing it through my block wall and up the side of my home, which is aluminum sided. I do have proper literature on this installation, but any tips for securing, framing out and going through my eaves would be greatly appreciated. I also bought a smaller cast iron wood stove to install on the other end of my home in the garage/workshop area, which I thought was going to be the easy job, but is in fact where the real dilemma starts.

I've been told no wood stoves in a garage and I can see this for obvious reasons, but have no liquid flammables etc. in this garage. An existing masonry chimney is going up the outside of the garage. It has a 6'' opening through the basement block wall and red brick floor to ceiling hearth? or sub wall about 4 feet wide inside. I just discovered this after removing old framed out walls. The thimble is clay and goes from the red brick through the block wall into the chimney. The clay is cracked and broken quite severely. I was planning on taking out the mortar that sealed up the opening and going to town with some wood heat. Unfortunately I discovered the crumbled thimble and the fact that the chimney liner, which is about 9" x 9", stops at the top of the thimble opening. I read in the cast iron stove literature, the liner should extend below the opening. There is no clean-out on this chimney. It does appear to be in good shape, both block and liner.

I have lived here since 94' and I never knew what the chimney was originally for until I removed the wall. I would like to know what I should do to be sure this chimney is safe to use, and if I hire someone to inspect it, if I am being given proper information. I would hate to see a good chimney go to waste as I have been gathering wood and am eager to show PP&L;a thing or two this year. I would like to know what can be used to go from the stove pipe into the chimney, if I need another thimble or is just stove pipe ok. There is no combustible material within 18" of the opening. I also am concerned about where the lining stops and the clean-out situation.

Thank You all for your time and information, I look forward to reading some helpful information, and apologize for the long winded post, but like to be thorough. Thanks again, and Happy Holiday's!

mod - paragraph breaks inserted for readability
 
New2Wood said:
Hello to the forum. My name is Bill, from Northeast, PA in the Poconos.

hi bill, im going to "break up" your post to make it easier to read and try to answer some of your questions on the way

New2Wood said:
I have read the site from time to time trying to learn about wood stoves, installation and firewood. I have zero experience and previous knowledge other than what I have read. I get conflicting info. from people I know etc. so have stopped asking. There is a host of great info. on this site which is why I am here. I have searched for these answers but there is so much info. I would just like to have my specific concerns addressed, so if you have heard these a hundred times, sorry in advance.

I bought a used wood stove over a year ago to install in my basement. I never did so, but the electric bills are killing me and the time to procrastinate has come to an end, just like the numbers in my bank account come winter. I have most of the class A chimney and will be installing it through my block wall and up the side of my home, which is aluminum sided. I do have proper literature on this installation, but any tips for securing, framing out and going through my eaves would be greatly appreciated.

I also bought a smaller cast iron wood stove to install on the other end of my home in the garage/workshop area, which I thought was going to be the easy job, but is in fact where the real dilemma starts. I've been told no wood stoves in a garage and I can see this for obvious reasons, but have no liquid flammables etc. in this garage.

per NFPA211 code solid fuel burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage, that said its probably the most unadhered to statement in the codebook. essentially if the origional permit for building this structure listed it as a garage even if it is not used as such for code purposes it is considered a garage


New2Wood said:
An existing masonry chimney is going up the outside of the garage. It has a 6'' opening through the basement block wall and red brick floor to ceiling hearth? or sub wall about 4 feet wide inside. I just discovered this after removing old framed out walls. The thimble is clay and goes from the red brick through the block wall into the chimney. The clay is cracked and broken quite severely. I was planning on taking out the mortar that sealed up the opening and going to town with some wood heat. Unfortunately I discovered the crumbled thimble and the fact that the chimney liner, which is about 9" x 9", stops at the top of the thimble opening. I read in the cast iron stove literature, the liner should extend below the opening. There is no clean-out on this chimney. It does appear to be in good shape, both block and liner.

this chimney sound like its in serious disress, you will need to have at least a level 2 inspection done by a wett or csia or nfi certified chimney professional normally before any new install inito an existing flue. and , after reading your post i think you will have to have some work done to it the thimble can and should be removed and replaced not saying this to beat on you but your description scares me.


New2Wood said:
I have lived here since 94' and I never knew what the chimney was originally for until I removed the wall. I would like to know what I should do to be sure this chimney is safe to use, and if I hire someone to inspect it, if I am being given proper information. I would hate to see a good chimney go to waste as I have been gathering wood and am eager to show PP&L;a thing or two this year. I would like to know what can be used to go from the stove pipe into the chimney, if I need another thimble or is just stove pipe ok. There is no combustible material within 18" of the opening. I also am concerned about where the lining stops and the clean-out situation. Thank You all for your time and information, I look forward to reading some helpful information, and apologize for the long winded post, but like to be thorough. Thanks again, and Happy Holiday's!


wasnt picking about seperating your post and commenting as i did , it makes it easier to read and ive found (through experience myself) that folks tend to read these posts better when they are broken up a bit. as for the code issues "google" NFPA211 you can find a realread copy available at nfpa.org which will describe the things that will need to be done in order to get your flue systems up to safety standards. when checking your local chimney pro's look to see if they have the certifications i mentioned above and ensure they are liscenced and insured for your own protection. i hope this has helped you and feel free to ask away if more questions arise.
 
Mike,
Thank you for your quick reply. I checked back and was pleasantly surprised to see an answer already. I don't mind you separating it at all. I appreciate the info. on the inspection certifications etc. I wanted to have it inspected, but I have been concerned about who to call and trust with such an important and potentially dangerous decision. So many people say different things. One person even put a piece of pipe through the opening and said it was fine. Needless to say I was not comfortable with that.
 
If it were my chimney and house, I'd have it inspected and go by what the guy told me. As and aside, a small woodstove feeding into a terra cotta lined masonry chimney with a large flu is going to make it dirty fairly quick. Stack velocity way down, and temperatures remaining cold consistently.

Likely be much better off, have a better draft, and less maintenance, with a stainless liner. Not cheap, but effective and safe. Can make a nice airtight joint down where the thimble is too...
 
Leon,
Thank you for your reply. I have thought about a liner, but the cost is the issue. I was hoping to just use that chimney/stove to supplement and was not looking to spend a lot of money for something already there. After a good inspection I will have to make a decision.
 
Bill, it's understandable that cost is a concern, but safety is the issue. Do it safely so that we can read about your success and hear from you over the years to come.
 
Thanks for your post and concern. One thing I am is safe. I have a relatively dangerous job and safety is of the utmost importance. I would have had this stove going long ago if I wasn't more than a little concerned about it all. I am just tired of these ridiculous electric bills and living in an uncomfortably cold house to boot, as a result of trying to keep the bills down. Will keep at it and keep you posted as things develop.
 
We feel your pain... I do at least. My own home had a liner attached to a circa 1980's Vermont Castings insert... Model 0044/0046. As far as I know, the only difference between them is the brass trim. What I learned from the performance of that, compared to the "Old Mill" insert that was in my parent's living room fireplace when they bought their house convinced me.

1. Amazing draft in the lined unit. In fact, irritating sometimes as it blows your match out when you try to light it.
2. Never, and I mean ever, smelled smoke in the house from this unit. Only time I've ever smelled smoke is when I stupidly woke up in the middle of the night, opened the doors, and threw a charge of wood in on top of a big bed of coals, with the bypass damper open. Duh... woke up in heck of a hurry.
3. Had the chimney sweep come a couple years ago to clean it. At the time, the gaskets needed replacing, and the connector to the liner wasn't "tight". Had to reach in occasionally and pull it back down into the insert. When it got hot and cooled, it would lift the connector out of the unit. Hello... :) Kind of sounded like a jet taking off when I shut the air off to it during a roaring fire.
4. It got overheated a few times. Warped grates, brick supports, and I got mad and pulled it out. Reverse engineered the connected with sheet stainless. Then I wrapped it in 1/2 inch stainless foil backed insulation, taped the seams. Stuck the insert back in, pulled the connector down into the unit. Drilled two 1/8 holes opposite one another, and stuck a stainless steel screw in each side.
5. Test fired it, and ordered replacement parts.
6. Working good now, once I fixed up the secondary air intakes, because of the 35 foot chimney it was connected to far overdrafting and firing the unit once it was tightened up.

1. Folk's "Old Mill" was a smoking beast. Just an airtight woodstove stuck into the fireplace. The surround was sealed with, get this, pink insulation jammed into the cracks.
2. They had the chimney cleaned the second winter they owned the house. The guy was absolutely horrified. He took five, five gallon pails of creosote out of the old chimney, damper, and off the top of the insert. He said, "If that had ever ignited, it would have burned for a week."
3. Constantly smelling smoke in the house, nasty darned thing.

Cousin runs a stove shop, and when I told him about it he said, "That's got to go. Let me see what we've got." He talked to his partner, and they "found" a leftover unit that never sold. It is an EPA compliant "Heatilator" insert with two blower motors in the front. One had been scavenged, and it had been scratched up some, but never even fired.

Set me up with rigid pipe liner with insulated covers, zero clearance arrangement, kit to seal top of chimney, and some crimped flex to go through the offset, connectors and hi temp caulking.

I went to work... The first day, I had the old unit out, new unit sitting on floor in front of opening. Took a two foot pipe wrench to the damper and frame, and shoved that thing down the chimney. Went in great until I got to the offset. It got stuck, and me being 6'3, 285 pounds, wasn't taking any of that crap, so I "unstuck it". Tore that crimped flex pipe all to pieces. Went to Elmer's Pipe in central Maine and got a piece of apparently indestructible flex pipe he makes there with stainless ribbon and a machine. He made the very top end round, and ovaled the bottom eight feet to get through the offset easier. He then made an oval to round adaptor for me to hook it to the top of the insert.

Next day, hooked it all up, and more or less dropped it into the chimney. Aside from a little push going through the offset, it fell into the chimney.

No more smoke in the house. No more smell in the summer. The draft is amazing, and the thing will drive them out of the house with one blower motor in it. They've burned 50 gallons of oil since I put it in a year ago. I cleaned the chimney for them last week. There was about an inch of foamy creosote the last four feet of chimney. Left about 2 and and 1/2 feet of liner above the chimney, and I think it was cooling the last section too much. Shortened that, put it all back together and caulked it again. Doing good now.

It's only my opinion. But I think the worst, cheapest, stainless chimney liner is better than the clay lined flu designed for an oil boiler or open fireplace. Can get a kit for 400 to 600 dollars to line that thing up clean, and safe.

Me? Sick of burning oil. Spent 22,000 dollars on an entire heating system, 40 gallon indirect hot water heater, and a wood/coal boiler add on. Replaced an early 90's steam boiler hooked to an ancient steam system, and an oil fired hot water heater. If I had a timer on the oil burner, I think it would run about as much as the old steam boiler ran to even begin making heat, and shuts off because the demand is satisfied. In the time it takes the new one to shut off, the old one was just beginning to get steam to the radiators. Endless hot water, not more warm showers because the tenants beat me into the shower in the morning. And after tomorrow, when the wood/coal unit is fired, the oil burner should sit warmly idle because it's got 180 degree water circulating through it 24/7.
 
Leon,
I wish you were my neighbor. Could use the friendly neighbor like help figuring this mess out. I appreciate all the insight into the different stove applications. Your new heating system sounds great. If I had the money I would love to put in an outside burner and run hot water to the house. Maybe one day. That way I would not have the worry of the home chimney, the mess etc. etc.
I have considered both a new hot water and hot air system, but I would have to go with oil or propane where I am. I am curious how this whole energy thing is going to go before making any major decisions when funds allow.
I used to use propane for the direct vent heaters throughout the house. I stopped that a few years back and now am reliant on electric baseboard. I had at one time a wood pellet, the propane and the electric. The wood pellet started costing too much and basically only heated the basement. Then the propane kept going up and up and I never liked the way they had the gas lines (copper) branching off the black pipe all over the house and through the walls. The previous owner was asthmatic and they used to burn wood I guess and switched over to propane and the pellet stove. When I bought the place in 94' I figured I was in great shape for heating. Little did I know how poorly insulated this 1970's stick built modular was at the time. I sure do now. I do figure I can save some money towards the goal of an entirely new heating system once I begin burning wood for a time. The liner does sound awfully appealing. Maybe next year I may be able to invest in that for the masonry chimney.
The funny thing is with the uncovering of the masonry chimney hook-up this year, I have two accessible chimney's. There is one of those manufactured through the ceiling boxes in my living room. I guess someone had a wood stove there at one time but I never thought about using it, until recently by maybe bringing the wood pellet upstairs and hooking it up to it. I may be completely wrong, but I always was afraid to even think about hooking up a wood burner to the manufactured ceiling chimney in the living room. And I never pursued any education on it. I don't know the actual temperature differences, but I know the pellet must put out far lower exhaust temps with a 3" direct vent being acceptable.
For now I am going to concentrate on installing the larger stove with the class A pipe I spent a fortune on last year, and finding a reputable chimney sweep to school me on the masonry chimney and put my mind to ease one way or another. I guess I should check into the safety of the living room hook-up too. It is amazing how many people I know who have told me regarding the masonry chimney.... " I would just put a pipe in there and burn it like it is". I think 3 to date. But, they don't have to live and sleep here while it's burning now do they. Well, I guess I will have 3 chimney's after hooking up the other stove (lol), which is really going to be the main source of heat for now anyway. It sure would be nice to have one working! I am going away for Christmas in 2 weeks and I just don't see it realistically happening before then. Thank you very much for your time and information, much appreciated.
 
What condition is the existing flue system with the connect in the living room? If it's in good condition and properly done, that is what I would connect to. Heating from a basement can be hit or miss. Often it's not too successful. If you can take pictures of the existing living room flue setup and describe it as it heads through the attic, and roof (more pictures would help here too), we can help you with assessing it's shape and suitability. A flue system running up in the interior of the house is going to be much cleaner running and will draft better. Let's start with one problem at a time and figure out if it's possible to make this right.

First step is the stove. What is the make and model of the unit you picked up? Then let's look at the existing flue. If this flue system is ok, maybe the new pipe can be used for the other installation?
 
PE,
I am not sure what shape the ceiling chimney is in. It looks to be ok on the roof and inside there is just a square box with the opening capped off. I have never even looked up there. The roof part seems in fairly good shape, I have seen a little rust under the cap but never had the cap off and really looked. If I get home one night before dark I will check it out and try and take some pictures of everything. If not before then this weekend. I have a 4/12 pitch roof I think, so the pipe in the attic space is only about 3 ft. or so. I never go up there, tight and no reason to, and it is about 20-25 feet from the access, so I've only seen it from a distance. The whole chimney from ceiling box to cap is probably about 7 feet long.
The brand new stove I bought last winter is a Vogelzang boxwood stove model bx26e, I got it for my workshop area and to supplement a little heat to the floor at least of that end of the house. The other wood stove says V I W on the door with what looks like 2 flowers below the letters. I have no idea the model etc., but I will look closer as soon as I can. This is the stove I bought from someone I know and started buying the duravent SS chimney pipe and kit for last year. The stove sits up on legs and is 22" w X 22" d x 18" h in front and 22" high in back. I know the boxwood is unlisted and I am assuming and treating this one as such also. It has a 6" opening in the back of the stove. It seems to be in real good shape and I purchased new firebrick for it as well.
I have read how a chimney should be installed in the living space, and I had even tried to figure out how I could do that with the larger stove in the basement, but it just seemed like a huge job and I wasn't sure where to put it and how to do it safely. So I looked over installations and picked up the through the wall kit and pipe. I hope this helps and as I said I will try and get some pictures as soon as I can and try and get them on here. Not much experience with that either but should be able to figure it out. Thanks for your post and to all for the help and interest. I really appreciate everyone's time and effort here.
 
Begreen,
I haven't heard anything from my last reply. Maybe because I called you PE, :) which I thought was your initials but after reading a few things tonight I see that most likely is a stove. Anyway, from my description of the stoves do you have any new info for me. I will not be putting any wood burning stove upstairs anytime soon as there is nothing but carpeting and wood paneling as far as the eye can see. So until I can get some proper material that's on hold. Maybe the wood pellet if I decide to use that would be better upstairs. The one stove I described that I don't know too much about is what I want to concentrate on in the basement. I can either go through the wall and up the side of the house as planned or figure out a way to keep the chimney inside. Which I would sure like to do if possible from all I have learned. If I put it up through the living space what needs to be done other than the clearance the pipe calls for. I read something about vermiculite insulation?? Is this something that I could do safely. I have no problem cutting holes and framing things out, am just concerned about the heat and safety issues. Thanks for you time.
 
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